The Official Don Davis Thread

[mstrox 5679]

I like that Kernis piece a lot, thanks for sharing!

[Jurassic Shark 9336]

It reminds me of the Matrix!

[Marian Schedenig 6220]

10 hours ago, mstrox said:

I like that Kernis piece a lot, thanks for sharing!

 

His other symphony that I know, titled Second Symphony (I think there's a third one, too?) is also cool.

 

I first encountered Kernis the very first time I got to hear film music in a concert setting, at an early 2000s concert by the RSO Vienna (who people here know from the Hollywood in Vienna concerts), conducted by Karen Kamensek. I bought a ticket so I could hear the Empire Strikes Back suite and was rewarded by also discovering Adams's Short Ride in a Fast Machine, Corigliano's Chaconne for a Red Violine, and Kernis's New Era Dance.

[Richard Penna 2506]

Is it true that Davis took time out of film to compose Rio De Sangre and it took him ages and by the time he was done he couldn't get film work?

 

It feels like one of those popular myths for why someone doesn't work in Hollywood any more. I find it hard to believe that someone who's done some big movies and has the tech wouldn't be able to find assignments.

[karelm 2587]

2 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Is it true that Davis took time out of film to compose Rio De Sangre and it took him ages and by the time he was done he couldn't get film work?

 

It feels like one of those popular myths for why someone doesn't work in Hollywood any more. I find it hard to believe that someone who's done some big movies and has the tech wouldn't be able to find assignments.

 

I doubt it.  I think he just didn't like scoring films where you have to take your orders from someone who might not care that much about music or end up asking you to follow the temp and maybe just replace much of it with a DJ.  It's a business and not that pleasant if you aren't given substantial creative liberties with directors who adore you and your contributions like JW.  So more like Goldenthal who seems to only compose his personal projects or Julie Taymor projects.  

[Thor 5801]

Just now, karelm said:

 

I doubt it.  I think he just didn't like scoring films where you have to take your orders from someone who might not care that much about music or end up asking you to follow the temp and maybe just replace much of it with a DJ.  It's a business and not that pleasant if you aren't given substantial creative liberties with directors who adore you and your contributions like JW.  

 

Well, I don't know how, exactly, the collaboration between Juno Reactor and Davis worked on the MATRIX films, but the result is amazing. So something good came from it.

[thestat 228]

Never really got this. Davis disappeared after Matrix Revolutions to do his opera, resurfaced to do a dodgy Renny Harlin - John Cena film (way before Cena was cool) and disappeared again.

 

My reckoning, based on absolute guess work, is that he got black listed for not playing the Hollywood game and following the Matrix trilogy with a set of similar films (still don't know WHY he did not do this - he'd been doing much worse films with awesome music for decades (Seaquest; Warriors of Virtue) so it does not make much sense to pull out right at the total peak of success).

 

And he'd been ghosting for everyone in Hollywood for decades as well, composing some of the best music coming out of the factory.....

 

Why let go when you are finally at the peak? Weird.

[karelm 2587]

35 minutes ago, thestat said:

Never really got this. Davis disappeared after Matrix Revolutions to do his opera, resurfaced to do a dodgy Renny Harlin - John Cena film (way before Cena was cool) and disappeared again.

 

My reckoning, based on absolute guess work, is that he got black listed for not playing the Hollywood game and following the Matrix trilogy with a set of similar films (still don't know WHY he did not do this - he'd been doing much worse films with awesome music for decades (Seaquest; Warriors of Virtue) so it does not make much sense to pull out right at the total peak of success).

 

And he'd been ghosting for everyone in Hollywood for decades as well, composing some of the best music coming out of the factory.....

 

Why let go when you are finally at the peak? Weird.

 

I don't think he got black listed, I think he just doesn't enjoy film scoring.  Except for a handful, maybe just one person, it's really a business and that scene is not for everyone.  

[thestat 228]

What, after spending 20 odd years orchestrating and ghosting for everyone, he bows out because he does not like it?

 

And to do what? Goldenthal had the same response but he is a recognised classical legend....Davis is not

[karelm 2587]

Just now, thestat said:

What, after spending 20 odd years orchestrating and ghosting for everyone, he bows out because he does not like it?

That's a major difference though, ghosting and orchestrating, your client is a composer.  The composer is the one handling the business.

[thestat 228]

Karelm - I'm trying to get your perspective here. So, from a business perspective, if I was to contact a certain JH, I might get work done by a certain DD. Fine. What's the point?

Oh, karelm, you are trying to say that it does not matter who composes, as long as you deliver the package. Fair enough. I am still interested in WHO composes as we fans hear that stuff. Look at Horner and Davis on Clear and Present Danger.....

 

Karelm - do come back to us with some wisdow as we need to know how the industry works - your comments make as much sense as Bakshi's Cool World.

 

[Kirkinson 4]

7 hours ago, thestat said:

What, after spending 20 odd years orchestrating and ghosting for everyone, he bows out because he does not like it?

Depending on how much money he made from the Matrix trilogy, the difference could be that he decided he didn't really need to do work he didn't enjoy anymore. Or at least not as much of it.

[karelm 2587]

14 hours ago, thestat said:

Karelm - I'm trying to get your perspective here. So, from a business perspective, if I was to contact a certain JH, I might get work done by a certain DD. Fine. What's the point?

Oh, karelm, you are trying to say that it does not matter who composes, as long as you deliver the package. Fair enough. I am still interested in WHO composes as we fans hear that stuff. Look at Horner and Davis on Clear and Present Danger.....

 

Karelm - do come back to us with some wisdow as we need to know how the industry works - your comments make as much sense as Bakshi's Cool World.

 

I'll explain this scenario that soured me.  I was hired a year ago to score an animated film and given a relatively nice package.  The music would be challenging and I got to work on it right away not yet having seen any of the film because it was CGI animated/semi animated so what I would see were just green screens and concept art.  I composed very good music (if I can say so) that I was proud of and saw a rough cut of the film (maybe 25% of the cgi/animation were in place.  I then got word that the team had fallen in love with royalty free temp score that they edited to but wanted to retain me but now adapt the royalty free music.  I said, but wait, I would charge you the contractually agreed fee regardless if they use my music or not because I created it even though they went the free route.  I was now competing with generic free music and told I had to compose exactly like that music because it was approved already.  So in what scenario would they pick my full price music that was already composed just for them but not like the generic royalty free music if they got what they needed for free music and any original music would have to follow the exact same rhythm, beat, style, of the temp?  I did it for one cue and said screw this - it was zero joy just to write music exactly like what they were getting for free but mine would be the full price we agreed to.  They would just say for each cue, we'll take the free one instead because mine would be just like the free one but cost alot more.  I told them, I'll let them off the contract and let's go separate ways and the original music I composed is fully mine to do whatever I want with but this issue of having to compete with very generic royalty free music is becoming more and more common and far less creative or interesting for the composer.  Something very similar happened to Davis on Matrix where DJ music was brought in replacing some of his music and he was told to merge his style to blend with them.  At the very least, it was insulting, and he didn't take it well, plus very uninteresting to the composer.  This sort of approach is more and more common now.  There are some composers through various methods (maybe they have a music production team or are improvisors), but for those of us who want to sit at a desk and craft a well-conceived score that helps tell the story, it's frustrating and very unnerving that at any moment, even if they haven't heard the score, they might say the direction has changed and they're going with the generic free music.  For some people who are fine with this being a business and they produce a product, it's probably not that big a deal but others actually love music and prefer working in settings that are more collaborative and supportive of that goal.  I spent the rest of last year working on personal projects and very specific collaborations that were far more rewarding than doing the grind of writing music directly for directors then having it tossed for something easy to edit to or someone else had just gotten used to.  I hope that explains the scenario better.

[Muad'Dib 1622]

15 minutes ago, karelm said:

I'll explain this scenario that soured me.  I was hired a year ago to score an animated film and given a relatively nice package.  The music would be challenging and I got to work on it right away not yet having seen any of the film because it was CGI animated/semi animated so what I would see were just green screens and concept art.  I composed very good music (if I can say so) that I was proud of and saw a rough cut of the film (maybe 25% of the cgi/animation were in place.  I then got word that the team had fallen in love with royalty free temp score that they edited to but wanted to retain me but now adapt the royalty free music.  I said, but wait, I would charge you the contractually agreed fee regardless if they use my music or not because I created it even though they went the free route.  I was now competing with generic free music and told I had to compose exactly like that music because it was approved already.  So in what scenario would they pick my full price music that was already composed just for them but not like the generic royalty free music if they got what they needed for free music and any original music would have to follow the exact same rhythm, beat, style, of the temp?  I did it for one cue and said screw this - it was zero joy just to write music exactly like what they were getting for free but mine would be the full price we agreed to.  They would just say for each cue, we'll take the free one instead because mine would be just like the free one but cost alot more.  I told them, I'll let them off the contract and let's go separate ways and the original music I composed is fully mine to do whatever I want with but this issue of having to compete with very generic royalty free music is becoming more and more common and far less creative or interesting for the composer.  Something very similar happened to Davis on Matrix where DJ music was brought in replacing some of his music and he was told to merge his style to blend with them.  At the very least, it was insulting, and he didn't take it well, plus very uninteresting to the composer.  This sort of approach is more and more common now.  There are some composers through various methods (maybe they have a music production team or are improvisors), but for those of us who want to sit at a desk and craft a well-conceived score that helps tell the story, it's frustrating and very unnerving that at any moment, even if they haven't heard the score, they might say the direction has changed and they're going with the generic free music.  For some people who are fine with this being a business and they produce a product, it's probably not that big a deal but others actually love music and prefer working in settings that are more collaborative and supportive of that goal.  I spent the rest of last year working on personal projects and very specific collaborations that were far more rewarding than doing the grind of writing music directly for directors then having it tossed for something easy to edit to or someone else had just gotten used to.  I hope that explains the scenario better.

 

Very interesting, I've experienced something similar in my very small carreer as a short-film composer, particularly on a series project that I backed down from.

 

Karelm, are you allowed to tell us the name of the animated film? I'm curious about it.

[karelm 2587]

23 hours ago, Muad'Dib said:

 

Very interesting, I've experienced something similar in my very small carreer as a short-film composer, particularly on a series project that I backed down from.

 

Karelm, are you allowed to tell us the name of the animated film? I'm curious about it.

 

I won't name the project even if I'm allowed to.  I have no idea what future projects might exist.  

[Muad'Dib 1622]

You're right, my apologies.

[mstrox 5679]

Was it shrek 

[GerateWohl 2506]

Thanks @karelm for that insight.

It makes sense to me that Davis in the meantime might only work in the movie business for money l, but basically rather burns for his non-movie projects. 

 

As it seems that - at least in Hollywood - the movie business is less and less a place for passionate lovers of classic movie scores. 

When I look at the past years and this years Oscar nominees, except Williams, If I was 10 years old today I would not become a film music fan anymore. (I am not even sure, if I would become a pop music fan today, but that is a different Story).

[Jurassic Shark 9336]

9 hours ago, karelm said:

 

Of course I won't name the project even if I'm allowed to.  I have no idea what future projects might exist.  It's also irrelevant and unprofessional.  You are kind of asking for specifics of who you had bad sex with because "I'm curious about it" - it's rude to talk specifics.  Take this as a general example.  

 

You know, you could have declined to answer in a polite manner. There's nothing wrong with being a bit curious. And no, nobody wants to know who you're having sex with.

[mstrox 5679]

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

And no, nobody wants to know who you're having sex with.

Was it shrek 

[Richard Penna 2506]

The issue karelm raises is interesting because I think there are some projects for which original music is essential because the music is so front and centre, but there are some where the music takes more of a back seat and the music just seems to be... there. In those cases, it has always struck me as easier to use production music.

 

In theory it means less work for composers generally, but would it be better to simply acknoweledge upfront that you're going to use production/royalty free music instead of putting a composer through what you did?

[Disco Stu 15468]

1 hour ago, mstrox said:

Was it shrek 

 

[Jurassic Shark 9336]

46 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

In theory it means less work for composers generally, but would it be better to simply acknoweledge upfront that you're going to use production/royalty free music instead of putting a composer through what you did?

 

I guess things can change during the production. 

[karelm 2587]

4 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

Thanks @karelm for that insight.

It makes sense to me that Davis in the meantime might only work in the movie business for money l, but basically rather burns for his non-movie projects. 

 

As it seems that - at least in Hollywood - the movie business is less and less a place for passionate lovers of classic movie scores. 

When I look at the past years and this years Oscar nominees, except Williams, If I was 10 years old today I would not become a film music fan anymore. (I am not even sure, if I would become a pop music fan today, but that is a different Story).

John Williams told my class, I really have no advice for how to make it now, things have changed so much since when I started, I doubt I would make it today.  

2 hours ago, mstrox said:

Was it shrek 

Yes.