SPOILER TALK: Rogue One by Gareth Edwards

[Quintus 5,399]

Ha, that's right BloodBoal, that was it. I'd mixed them up, probably because trailers I very rarely watch. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You made a mistake! You will never make Moderator this way!

[Quintus 5,399]

I'll never make moderator, I'm too abrupt, amongst other things. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Me too, and I can't be arsed reading every...single...post.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Well, half the posts on this forum are yours anyway, so that already coveres most of them...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

True. I don't really need any of you to keep this place going! I'm doing all the work here!

[Quintus 5,399]

18 minutes ago, Mr. Breathmask said:

Well, half the posts on this forum are yours anyway, so that already coveres most of them...

 

Boom! 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

[Quintus 5,399]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

[leeallen01 2,136]

Watching A New Hope and noticed that 3PO tells Luke that he doesn't know who Leia is. He says he thinks she's someone of importance. Surely 3PO would know who she is by now. His memory was erased 20 years before, but he hasn't heard of Leia since then...

 

Also Uncle Owen just buys 3PO and R2, when he surely knows them both because didn't he meet them in the prequels, wasn't 3PO working for him for years? I know there's multiple identical droids, but he wouldn't recognise the name C3PO? Just a thought, especially considering Owen doesn't want Luke to know about the past.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's best not to think about these things anymore. It doesn't really make sense. It never did. It's not gonna get any better.

[leeallen01 2,136]

Yeah, that's true. Basically, you cannot make a prequel of any sorts without making mistakes, either large or small.

 

It's not a prequel mistake, but I've always struggled with how Vader doesn't figure out that Leia is his bloody daughter when he has her prisoner. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Or that his son eluded him for 2 decades even though he went by the name Skywalker and lived on the farm he grew up on himself.

[leeallen01 2,136]

Yeah it's pretty weak.

 

Random observation. I think there was a Wampa in Rogue One?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

It is not.

 

Vader not knowing Luke and leía is no a plothole at all. At least not of the magnitude of others.

 

Vader thinks padme and the baby died. Why he would search for Luke? And he hates tatooine. Why would he return there?

 

 

Its more puzzling that he could not sense padme was carrying twins...

[leeallen01 2,136]

He sensed Obi Wan on the death Star, so regardless of whether he thinks they're dead or not, he should have sensed his own children.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

2 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

He sensed Obi Wan on the death Star, so regardless of whether he thinks they're dead or not, he should have sensed his own children.

he didnt sense obi wan in 20years either.

 

BTW in the old EU you could sense another force sensitive you were acustomed too, but not really pinpoint his/her exact location.

 

And he says Leia is very resistant to the mind probe. And she doesnt know vader is her father, so she cannot hide what she does not know...

[Wojo 2,453]

Threepio must know who the princess is because in the opening minutes of the Devastator's attack on Tantive IV, he tells Artoo, "there'll be no escape for the princess this time." So either he can't see the identity of the robed lady in the hologram, or the vain Threepio just lies to Luke out of annoyance that Artoo is getting this much attention. It would be too complicated to think Leia uses a body double like Amidala did. 

 

Luke Skywalker evaded notice by the Empire for twenty years by never being important. Not sure how common the name is outside Tatooine, but he did not send his application to the Imperial Academy at the time of getting the droids. He became famous after destroying the Death Star I, when his name began circulating through the Rebellion and the Empire, and it's then that the Emperor and Vader concluded his identity. 

 

Leia's Force sensitivity wasn't switched on in Episode IV because George did not know she was Luke's sister yet, even though that much torture droid fun should have activated something, making it harder for Vader to learn... Okay, this one is just stupid. 

[leeallen01 2,136]

I guess there are ways to explain it, but it's just always been a little thing that's bugged me that he never sensed a connection, that's all. 

[karelm 2,913]

10 hours ago, Quintus said:

Those two will almost certainly have been motion captured using really performers. It's standard practice in video games so there's no reason to think it'd be any different for movies. 

 

Tarkin only fails because the eyes aren't good enough to convince. His mouth we wouldn't have noticed had they got the eyes right. Compare it to Michael Douglas and it's night and day in that regard. His eyes sparkle with believable life behind them, it'd really remarkable. 

 

Tarkin and Leia were done by other actors with similar features (like Leia actress having a round face) but it isn't 100% right and that might be part of why these failed in comparison to Michael Douglas who has exactly the same features as young Michael Douglas.  Also his old voice is a good match for his young voice but Carrie Fisher's old voice is very different from her younger voice.  It still seems night and day in the examples but proof CGI characters can be done right. 

[Quintus 5,399]

I personally don't believe the original actor playing the part has much bearing on the final quality of the CG manifestation, but if it did then Indiana Jones 5 would be golden

[leeallen01 2,136]

I'm at a point in my life where even seeing the mummified remains of Harrison Ford, being strung up like a super marionette, would still satisfy me. I just want me some Indy.

[karelm 2,913]

6 hours ago, Quintus said:

I personally don't believe the original actor playing the part has much bearing on the final quality of the CG manifestation, but if it did then Indiana Jones 5 would be golden

 

I thought they needed the actors to have a similar structure for the motion capture to work.  See this:

 

 

[Quintus 5,399]

Similar features, yes. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

These Star Wars threads are so out of control, I can't keep up with them.

 

If it was a Godzilla or Independence Day thread, I could though...

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

On 24.12.2016 at 4:20 PM, Mr. Breathmask said:

Well, half the posts on this forum are yours anyway, so that already coveres most of them...

 

Yes but why would he read the other half?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed!

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

On 24.12.2016 at 5:06 PM, leeallen01 said:

Watching A New Hope and noticed that 3PO tells Luke that he doesn't know who Leia is. He says he thinks she's someone of importance. Surely 3PO would know who she is by now. His memory was erased 20 years before, but he hasn't heard of Leia since then...

 

He might just have been a minor service droid on Yavin in the meantime. Bail Organa doesn't mention her by name when he says he trusts her, so she's not necessarily a household name at that point.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

15 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

He might just have been a minor service droid on Yavin in the meantime. Bail Organa doesn't mention her by name when he says he trusts her, so she's not necessarily a household name at that point.

Before Rogue one, i think the explanation is that C-3PO is hiding information from luke, he is very talkative...but can hide classified information when it is needed.

Princess leia is the senator of alderaan at that point. Bail organa is the viceroy...so she is a household name already...

 

BTW. both r2 and c3po are crew from the tantive VI, and propierty of Cap. Antilles. Maybe they do not hang with the royal house too much (though i think in an episode of rebels the protagonists give c3po to bail organa in a mission....)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I fear I may be becoming fatigued by discussion about this film...

 

 

Such tedious material. Bring new entertainment!

[mrbellamy 6,286]

I saw the film again last night and had another listen to the soundtrack and found that I liked and disliked the same things about the movie and the score.

 

Overall in my humble estimation these new contributions to the Star Wars universe are okay, nice, just fine, and such things.

 

[Sir Hilary Bray 235]

Saw it earlier today. Without dredging through eighteen pages I'll go on record as quite liking it (but for cinema factors). Didn't mind so much the CGI inclusions of Tarkin/Leia/Gold Leader or Red Leader- I had hoped Leia would have been in it, however briefly and if need be played by a different actress. My anticipation was mostly for Vader -I didn't see a location pop up for his HQ, Mustarfar's younger sibling by the looks. A high point was his appearance at the end.

Musically to my untrained ear, it wasn't bad though a piece or two brought to mind parts from Star Trek Beyond (however faintly) and for a split second, a couple of moments sounded akin to the start of Across the Stars.

 

4/5

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm sure in the current political climate a name like "Mustafar" is a little bit too risque for Disney-owned Star Wars.

[leeallen01 2,136]

Did anyone get a major Star Trek vibe from the scene when Jedha was exploding, and K2SO was flying the ship to save them and it was all crumbling around them. It even looked like the enterprise from far away. 

2 hours ago, Stefancos said:

I'm sure in the current political climate a name like "Mustafar" is a little bit too risque for Disney-owned Star Wars.

 

Jedha isn't exactly PC Disney. Jeddah is a city in Saudi Arabia that has seen conflict.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

5 hours ago, Stefancos said:

I'm sure in the current political climate a name like "Mustafar" is a little bit too risque for Disney-owned Star Wars.

 

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

3 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

 

Jedha isn't exactly PC Disney. Jeddah is a city in Saudi Arabia that has seen conflict.

 

An oversight which will be rectified in the home video release! Disney has already offered it's apologies to His Royal Highness Salman bin Abdoel Aziz al-Saoed for this inappropriate cultural transgression.

 

Theatrical versions of Rogue One will be as hard to find as an HD, uncut version of Song Of The South.

[Demodex 557]

13 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

BTW. both r2 and c3po are crew from the tantive VI, and propierty of Cap. Antilles. Maybe they do not hang with the royal house too much (though i think in an episode of rebels the protagonists give c3po to bail organa in a mission....)

 

He refers to her as "the Princess" in the beginning of ANH. He knows who she is.

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

Finally saw it today... damn, that was really, really good.  Just as a film, I think it's the best since TESB (even if it is just basically The Guns of Navarone...in SPACE!).  I think that other than the C3PO/R2D2 cameo, they found the perfect balance of creating a new story with callbacks to the originals.  I liked the wildly uneven pacing - it felt more like a 50s-60s blockbuster in that regard, which certainly fits the Star Wars origins, inspiration-wise.  The characters were fleshed-out; the story was captivating; it was visually impressive.  The music was...underwhelming, but still better than nearly every other big-budget film in recent memory that wasn't scored by Williams, Shore, or Zimmer.  It seems I'm one of the only people who thought CGI Tarkin actually worked quite well.  That could be partly because I'd consciously blocked out any non-musical development news about Rogue One and in no way was expecting CGI Peter Cushing.  I laughed at the absurdity of (spoilers for a TV show):

Spoiler

the whole Bojack Horseman- completing Secretariat without Bojack plotline

but holy shit... that's apparently viable.  At first, I actually thought it was just an insanely good makeup job, and Tarkin ended up being just as imposing a villain as Krennic (more on him later).  Forest Whitaker seemed under-used initially, but the character was also a bit much, and the Vader parallels would be too obvious if Gerrera was prominent.  I gather people seem to be disappointed with Krennic and... I think that's the point.  He's emphatically not a bad-ass villain.  He's not a force user like Vader, the Emperor, or Dooku.  He's not a military threat like Tarkin or Grievous.  He's not an interplanetary gangster like Jabba.  He's an elevated bureaucrat.  He's clearly out of his league when dealing with characters with more established cruelty (Vader/Tarkin).  Thinking back, the scene when Tarkin wrests control of the Death Star from him bordered on the "So what exactly is it...that ya' do here?" interaction from Office Space.  Without the apparatus of the Empire behind him, Krennic is essentially harmless, which to me is exactly what makes the character work.  Vader, the Emperor, etc...they're inherently dangerous in any context.  Darth Vader doesn't need a planet-destroying weapon, or a fleet, or even any weapon to completely overpower nearly anyone in the galaxy.  Krennic is a glorified government flunky, but the power of the Empire enables him to be an existential threat to entire planets.

 

10 hours ago, Strangways said:

Saw it earlier today. Without dredging through eighteen pages I'll go on record as quite liking it (but for cinema factors). Didn't mind so much the CGI inclusions of Tarkin/Leia/Gold Leader or Red Leader- I had hoped Leia would have been in it, however briefly and if need be played by a different actress. My anticipation was mostly for Vader -I didn't see a location pop up for his HQ, Mustarfar's younger sibling by the looks. A high point was his appearance at the end.

Musically to my untrained ear, it wasn't bad though a piece or two brought to mind parts from Star Trek Beyond (however faintly) and for a split second, a couple of moments sounded akin to the start of Across the Stars.

 

4/5

With you on not going through eighteen pages.  I think the Vader planet was meant to be Mustafar after cooling off somewhat.  I haven't listened to the score on its own yet, but quite a few moments called to mind "Across the Stars" and "The Jedi Steps."  I think the AOTC "Mysteries Theme" popped up once, too, but I might have imagined that.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

6 hours ago, Demodex said:

 

He refers to her as "the Princess" in the beginning of ANH. He knows who she is.

that's why i say he is hiding information from luke.

[mstrox 6,651]

19 hours ago, Stefancos said:

I'm sure in the current political climate a name like "Mustafar" is a little bit too risque for Disney-owned Star Wars.

 

Lucasfilm Story Group's Pablo Hidalgo has stated that the planet wasn't labeled because they didn't want to "give away" to the viewer who lived in the castle.

[Wojo 2,453]

But why would the casual viewer expect that Vader build his home on the planet where he lost his last three limbs and all his hair? It's not like Mustafar pushed Vader to the dark side, that this was his forge, he had already fallen. He lost an arm on Geonosis, his mother on Tatooine, and his humanity on Coruscant. Mustafar was just another crucible, though his most dramatic. 

 

At least the EU-savvy viewer knows that Bast Castle on Vjun is no longer canon. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That place...is strong with the Dark Side.

[mstrox 6,651]

33 minutes ago, petaQ said:

But why would the casual viewer expect that Vader build his home on the planet where he lost his last three limbs and all his hair? It's not like Mustafar pushed Vader to the dark side, that this was his forge, he had already fallen. He lost an arm on Geonosis, his mother on Tatooine, and his humanity on Coruscant. Mustafar was just another crucible, though his most dramatic. 

 

At least the EU-savvy viewer knows that Bast Castle on Vjun is no longer canon. 

 

The casual viewer might not expect it, but there IS a connection made between that planet and Anakin/Vader. 

 

Other media has seeded hints to this over the past few years.  For instance, a character in Rebels called Mustafar the planet where Jedi go to die - which makes sense, if Vader makes his home there.

 

http://www.starwars.com/news/we-set-the-bar-so-high-doug-chiang-on-designing-rogue-one

 

Here's an article with Doug Chiang, the movie's art department lead - talking about the unused Return of the Jedi ideas and Ralph McQuarrie art that played into the castle's location and design, and some ideas about its placement.

 

And here's a New York Times article about the human CGI of Rogue One, especially Tarkin, and the ethical concerns it raised.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/27/movies/how-rogue-one-brought-back-grand-moff-tarkin.html?_r=1

[Uni 306]

4 hours ago, mstrox said:

 

Lucasfilm Story Group's Pablo Hidalgo has stated that the planet wasn't labeled because they didn't want to "give away" to the viewer who lived in the castle.

 

Ahh . . . that makes sense, actually. It would've spoiled the surprise for me if they'd captioned the planet.

 

 

6 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

that's why i say he is hiding information from luke.

 

On the other hand, this . . . still makes no sense. Again, I don't think Threepio's nearly clever enough to try it, and beyond that, it doesn't gel with his actions and dialogue. Leia gave Artoo the plans, and through the early goings of ANH it's clear Threepio has no idea what's going on or the nature of the information Artoo is carrying. ("What plans? What are you talking about?") And when Artoo refuses to show Luke the entire message, Threepio actually gets pissed at him and urges him to give the rest of it up. How does that fit in with him trying to pull the wool over Luke's eyes. . . ?

 

I think it's far more likely an oversight on Lucas's part. He fed him the line about "no escape for the Princess" at the beginning, but wanted to establish him as a befuddled worry wart once they landed on Tatooine, and never made the connection himself.

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

8 hours ago, mstrox said:

And here's a New York Times article about the human CGI of Rogue One, especially Tarkin, and the ethical concerns it raised.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/27/movies/how-rogue-one-brought-back-grand-moff-tarkin.html?_r=1

Speaking as a human being, the fact that that can be done is rather horrifying, but speaking as someone who's worked in computer graphics, the technology behind it is fascinating, and whatever ethical concerns it raises (and there are many), I think the execution was remarkable.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

10 hours ago, petaQ said:

 

At least the EU-savvy viewer knows that Bast Castle on Vjun is no longer canon. 

Well Vader had Also a castle in coruscant so...The man may have liked his castles everywhere in the Galaxy..

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

He was a "Lord" afterall. Makes sense that might have become a wealthy property owner.

[karelm 2,913]

13 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

that's why i say he is hiding information from luke.

One could argue the droids need to make sure the message needed to be received by it's intended audience, Obi-wan.  Luke was a nobody as far as 3PO is concerned (other than the horrifically stupid plot device of his dad building him but lets ignore that) so C3PO was just saying this wasn't meant for you.  It also seems that 3PO is just a foolish protocol droid where R2 is the strategic droid (the brains).

19 hours ago, Gnome in Plaid said:

Finally saw it today... damn, that was really, really good.  Just as a film, I think it's the best since TESB (even if it is just basically The Guns of Navarone...in SPACE!).  I think that other than the C3PO/R2D2 cameo, they found the perfect balance of creating a new story with callbacks to the originals.  I liked the wildly uneven pacing - it felt more like a 50s-60s blockbuster in that regard, which certainly fits the Star Wars origins, inspiration-wise.  The characters were fleshed-out; the story was captivating; it was visually impressive.  The music was...underwhelming, but still better than nearly every other big-budget film in recent memory that wasn't scored by Williams, Shore, or Zimmer.  It seems I'm one of the only people who thought CGI Tarkin actually worked quite well.  That could be partly because I'd consciously blocked out any non-musical development news about Rogue One and in no way was expecting CGI Peter Cushing.  I laughed at the absurdity of (spoilers for a TV show):

  Reveal hidden contents

the whole Bojack Horseman- completing Secretariat without Bojack plotline

but holy shit... that's apparently viable.  At first, I actually thought it was just an insanely good makeup job, and Tarkin ended up being just as imposing a villain as Krennic (more on him later).  Forest Whitaker seemed under-used initially, but the character was also a bit much, and the Vader parallels would be too obvious if Gerrera was prominent.  I gather people seem to be disappointed with Krennic and... I think that's the point.  He's emphatically not a bad-ass villain.  He's not a force user like Vader, the Emperor, or Dooku.  He's not a military threat like Tarkin or Grievous.  He's not an interplanetary gangster like Jabba.  He's an elevated bureaucrat.  He's clearly out of his league when dealing with characters with more established cruelty (Vader/Tarkin).  Thinking back, the scene when Tarkin wrests control of the Death Star from him bordered on the "So what exactly is it...that ya' do here?" interaction from Office Space.  Without the apparatus of the Empire behind him, Krennic is essentially harmless, which to me is exactly what makes the character work.  Vader, the Emperor, etc...they're inherently dangerous in any context.  Darth Vader doesn't need a planet-destroying weapon, or a fleet, or even any weapon to completely overpower nearly anyone in the galaxy.  Krennic is a glorified government flunky, but the power of the Empire enables him to be an existential threat to entire planets.

 

With you on not going through eighteen pages.  I think the Vader planet was meant to be Mustafar after cooling off somewhat.  I haven't listened to the score on its own yet, but quite a few moments called to mind "Across the Stars" and "The Jedi Steps."  I think the AOTC "Mysteries Theme" popped up once, too, but I might have imagined that.

I agree with you.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

Having finally seen it yesterday, a couple of quick thoughts:

 

- Overall, I found myself bored through most of the film. This is quite unusual for me, I can usually get myself interested in practically anything, but here, barely an hour had gone by and I was thinking when was this bloody thing going to end already. Granted I've never been the most interested person in Star Wars in general, but I can enjoy them for what they are. And most of all they can be fun, simple escapism popcorn flicks. But this film was just plain boring, there was very little fun to be had. You could say "oh, it wasn't fun but it was dark, complex and interesting as hell" but that's not the case. 

 

- There has been much discussion already about how the main characters are plain boring and unmemorable, and yeah, I agree. Captain Diego Luna is unlikeable from the very get go, but I kept wondering who our main character was. Anyone would respond Jyn, but Director Krennic seemed to be a major focus of the film as well -I'd even dare to say he was far more insteresting as he was always in a bad position against someone with superior command. Who's point of view are we focusing on? The answer should be Jyn of course, but the film keeps jumping back and forth, and even thinking about it the Krennic-Tarkin scenes are not necessary to the film at all. Sure it's great to see Tarkin back and in full form -his first scene I thought the CGI was quite obvious, but it got quite better afterwards- but I kept thinking that if you removed his scenes from the film nothing would be really lost, apart from the massive fan service. I think. I'm open to discussion if anyone wants to change my mind. 

 

- On a more positive note -or not so much- the things I did like about the film seemed to be the ones that referenced the other films: Tarkin and Vader mostly -though it you were going to do fan service having them share a scene again would have been quite nice I think, a missed opportuinity perhaps. 

The blind guy was awesome, somehow if felt like he belonged in the Star Wars universe. But he wouldn't work as a main character; he's a fantastic secondary (he got the best line, btw). And I liked the robot, kinda. I never really laughed at his scenes, though I felt like I wanted to but never quite got there. I liked his voice and his design.

 

- And regarding the score, does anyone else think it was loud as fuck? I think that's what sounds "off" with some recent Giacchino scores. Everything is loud ALL THE TIME. There's no dynamic range. Maybe he does it on purpose anticipating it being buried in the mix, but here, and I like to stress I like loud scores, it was too damn loud. Maybe I'm nitpicking. And the spotting was weird as well. I understand the time constraints, but still.... I feel like they score practically every scene. I know Star Wars is known for wall to wall scores, but even in the quieter moments the score was still playing and it was still too loud. And it makes me wonder: Why do JW keeps getting buried under the mix but Giacchino and practically every other modern composer don't?

 

That's about it, I think. I cannot grasp how some people are adoring this film so much. Maybe I'm out of touch. Force Awakens wasn't that good as first impressions suggested, but it had plenty of character and charm. I can watch it now and Rey, Finn and Han still drive me through the recycled story.