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Which The Lost World ending (Tranquilizer Dart) do you prefer?


Josh500
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Which The Lost World ending (Tranquilizer) do you prefer?   

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  1. 1. Which The Lost World ending (Tranquilizer Dart) do you prefer?

    • Tranquilizer Dart (Film Version): majestic, bombastic, adventurous.
      6
    • Tranquilizer Dart (Alternate Version): thoughtful, melancholic, wistful.
      19


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I'm not gonna say, "the way JW originally intended" because we don't know that for sure (and also because people are automatically gonna want to pick that)! It could be that JW offered both versions for Spielberg to choose from...

 

Either way, I think both versions work very well. 

 

Version 1. A grand finale, bombastic, adventurous, majestic... It's the way a Jurassic Park movie should end! People ought to leave the theater feeling good, thrilled, on a positive note! Besides, it's wonderful to hear that iconic Island theme once more in full blast while we watch the dinos grazing in the wild.... A throwback to the "Journey to the Island" from the original Jurassic Park! 

 

Version 2. A thoughtful, melancholic, wistful ending. This is not just a mindless popcorn movie, see, but people ought to leave the theater thinking about John Hammons's significant and pleading words. Thinking about nature, humans, and the role of the latter in the former. The dinosaurs (and indeed all animals) are our fellow creatures that deserve our deepest respect and compassion....

 

The movie is the same, but depending on the music the final message seems to be rather very different. Well, which do you personally prefer?

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The way JW originally intended. XD

 

I get the desire to end the film with a bang. But the island fanfare doesn't feel earned - it's only had a couple of cameo appearances in the film up till that point, and now it's suddenly front and center. The ending Williams recorded is a much better conceptual fit for the film...not to mention it's gorgeous music in and of itself.

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16 minutes ago, Datameister said:

I get the desire to end the film with a bang. But the island fanfare doesn't feel earned - it's only had a couple of cameo appearances in the film up till that point, and now it's suddenly front and center. The ending Williams recorded is a much better conceptual fit for the film...not to mention it's gorgeous music in and of itself.

 

I agree with your choice, although I'm not quite sure what you mean by "earned."

 

This is a sequel, so I'm getting the feeling that Williams and Spielberg were reminding us of the original movie... It comes full circle, in a way. So much happened... but it's still about the adventure, the dinosaurs, the excitement.

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16 minutes ago, Datameister said:

Exactly my point. :D

 

Oh, OK. :lol:

 

Here's one thing I'm wondering: 

 

Why in the world did Matessino include the version with tracking on the LLL set (as well as the intended, of course)? Is this the first time he's included tracking on a set? 

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Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Maybe JW himself had some involvement - maybe it's akin to a rewrite, except instead of actually rewriting, JW just decided to recommend tracking? 

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Well, yes, my theory is, Williams and Spielberg weren't quite sure what type of music to use here, so Williams just wrote a sad version, and offered as an alternative the island theme version.

 

I have a feeling the island theme version was always on the table, JW just wrote the sad, thoughtful version to be used just in case....

 

 

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Hmm... Just watched the ending with the sound muted and playing the original version. It is very beautiful and haunting, that's for sure. But is it better? And how do composer intentions come into play here? It's rather ambiguous. 

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I don't want to say one version is better. I think both are good. But their intentions are different. Question is, which version do you personally prefer?

 

I would think that Spielberg has enough respect for Williams that he consulted with Williams which version works better. They probably decided together that the bombastic version worked better in this case... Maybe Williams even wanted that piece to be heard one last time, who knows? The Island Theme sure is a kickass grand theme, unforgettable and powerful, and a perfect way to end the movie....

 

 

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I think this poll is misleading. 

 

Williams only wrote and recorded one version of this cue. 

 

Spielberg just replaced the ending with tracked music in the final cut of the film. End of story. 

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But it's not really another "version" of the cue, just jumping forward to music Williams recorded for the end credits anyway. 

 

Are you asking what music we think plays better under the final shots of the dinosaurs, basically? 

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Well, I don't know what you think but is it not strange that Williams seemingly acquiesced to the inclusion of the version with tracking in the bonus tracks? Is it not possible that he gave some sort of stamp of approval - because otherwise why would he care about tracked music? They didn't include all the tracked cues using the Lost World theme earlier in the film - why this one? 

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I don't really understand what you're saying, Will.  There is a huge history of tracking music that goes against what Williams wrote throughout his entire career, and TLW is no exception.

 

As for why it appears on the CD, I believe Matessino and Williams like their albums to have an "ending", instead of ending with a "bonus track".

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in this case it is strange...because ending with the alternate lost world would have been fine.

 

Probably they wanted to fill the CDs a little and added a film version for those who are into those things.

 

 

With JP...i'm still trying to dicern what differences are in both 'Welcome to jurassic park' tracks to make the inclussion worth it (aside from beefing up the score to 2CDs... since it runs barely longer than 1 CD. (they could still have put 'theme from jurassic park' as a bonus track in the second TLW CD....) That way one would have saved like 2.5 bucks from LLL :P)

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I've elaborated on this in another thread, but I definitely prefer the music JW originally intended. The narrative that JW highlights throughout the film is slightly at odds with the final product though, so I can see why they went with the Island fanfare instead. I feel like Spielberg got halfway through producing a thoughtful and intense action-thriller with some interesting philosophical points, then went "fuck it" and pulled together a safe popcorn film with some very broad emotional beats (which he does do well). Whether that happened or not is debatable, but that's what I feel when I watch the movie and listen to the complete score. 

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17 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

I feel like Spielberg got halfway through producing a thoughtful and intense action-thriller with some interesting philosophical points, then went "fuck it" and pulled together a safe popcorn film with some very broad emotional beats (which he does do well).

It is notably the second half that misses all dialogues between father and daughter, Sarah and Ian as well as any ambitious concerns that were implied or introduced in the first half. From the moment when Eddie died, one action or killer scene follows after another, and the film seems to degenerate to a technically perfectly made popcorn flick. To include the San Diego part without becoming stocky, the second half would have required half an hour more. But the original ambition becomes visible when you listen to the complete score. That LLL set set of the desire of an extended movie version:lol: - at least in my case.

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Well they did change the entire third act fairly late in the game. I guess they just ran out of time to do another couple of script passes to iron out the characters.

 

Jurassic Park is chock-full of excellent character moments after the first T-Rex attack. Grant with the kids, Petticoat Lane, Malcolm in the bunker, etc. The Lost World after Eddie's death? Not so much.

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4 hours ago, Jay said:

I don't really understand what you're saying, Will.  There is a huge history of tracking music that goes against what Williams wrote throughout his entire career, and TLW is no exception.

 

As for why it appears on the CD, I believe Matessino and Williams like their albums to have an "ending", instead of ending with a "bonus track".

 

Huh. I guess maybe that would make sense. Still seems odd though. 

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6 hours ago, Jay said:

Are you asking what music we think plays better under the final shots of the dinosaurs, basically? 

 

That's it!

5 hours ago, Jay said:

I don't really understand what you're saying, Will.  There is a huge history of tracking music that goes against what Williams wrote throughout his entire career, and TLW is no exception.

 

As for why it appears on the CD, I believe Matessino and Williams like their albums to have an "ending", instead of ending with a "bonus track".

 

Maybe, maybe not. Like I pointed out in my OP, we don't know for sure.

 

In this case, I really wonder. Considering that the exact same music was tracked at the end of JP at the appearance of T-Rex as well, it's rather likely (at least possible) that this was intended to be tracked here as well. To kind of "mirror" the first adventure.

 

JW just wrote an alternative to be used just in case the bombastic tone wasn't quite right....

 

The fact that the tracked version was included in the LLL release points strongly to this theory. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. Some suggested to fill up the 4th CD!? Oh, give me a break! I find that hardest to believe.

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Josh, he didn't write an alternate version! He only wrote one version of the cue! 

 

He recorded a concert arrangement of the first film's themes, and Spielberg tracked that in over the ending of the cue he wrote. It isnt any more complicated than that. 

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Are you reading what I wrote? I understand all that. But there ARE 2 versions of the ending. The island theme (which is tracked) and the "sad" version (which JW originally wrote for this scene).

 

I'm calling the version not used in the film the "alternate version" for convenience's sake, to differentiate from the "film version."

 

And like I pointed out numerous times, whether the island theme was intended to be tracked here from the get-go or not (or who made that decision, for that matter) is largely unknown. You have your theory regarding that, and I have mine.

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I suppose you could look at just about any instance of tracking the same way, and with just as little evidence. But the reality is that composers typically write only as much music as they need to, and that filmmakers typically do whatever they want to the music without consulting the composer.

 

Nothing's impossible, but barring evidence to support your theory, I'm gonna go with the usual simple explanation: Williams wrote some music and Spielberg decided to replace it with some other music.

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I guess I have an issue with the wording. Sometimes Williams writes a cue, the director asks for a rewrite and that becomes the "film version" with his original composition the "alternate version". 

 

But that isn't the case here, he only wrote one version. So I don't like calling his only version an "alternate“, nor do I like calling some last minute tracking a different "version" of the cue. 

 

It's more like we should call them "intended version" and "film edit" or something like that. 

 

I admit it gets more confusing because the OST track omits the ending of the cue like the film does too, and the expanded release contains a track that mimics the film editing.....

 

 

 

 

 

Buy anyway..... To answer the spirit of the question without getting hung up on the wording:

 

 

 

I don't really like either option of scoring the scene too much, quite frankly. What Williams wrote is interesting music, but also kind of at odds with both the visuals and the rest of the score in some ways. The tracking in the film is worse though, because it's not only concert arrangement music and not film cue music, but it's too grandiose and adventurous for what it's scoring. The theme in the first film, especially when orchestrated like that, represented out hero human characters going on an adventure. To use it for the dinosaurs being allowed to prosper freely on their  island doesn't really fit, imo.

 

I think if there had been time and budget for rewritten film cues, Williams would have written a revised endong that would have totally satisfied me, and Spielberg's wishes for the film.

 

Same as all the cues were Spielberg tracked in the TLW theme,  too. We could gotta some neat stuff out a Williams, I think. 

 

Too bad it wasn't in the cards. 

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18 minutes ago, Jay said:

I don't really like either option of scoring the scene too much, quite frankly. What Williams wrote is interesting music, but also kind of at odds with both the visuals and the rest of the score in some ways. The tracking in the film is worse though, because it's not only concert arrangement music and not film cue music, but it's too grandiose and adventurous for what it's scoring. The theme in the first film, especially when orchestrated like that, represented out hero human characters going on an adventure. To use it for the for the dinosaurs being allowed to have their island doesn't really fit. 

 

Yes, I see what you mean.

 

I personally prefer the "original version" rather than the "film edit," because it seems to fit with the subdued and somehow tragic atmosphere right after John Hammond's speech. The music seems to grieve the extinction of dinosaurs, somehow.

 

But that said, I like the "film edit" too. Several reasons why I think this was always intended (or at least considered) to be tracked here.

 

1. This version was included in the OS album as well as the LLL release. In the OS album, only this version was included.

 

2. Concert version of the Island Theme was used at the end of JP as well. It mirrors the original JP.

 

3. The shot of the dinosaurs grazing in the wild somehow doesn't fit with the rest of the movie. There are no humans in this shot, and none of the characters from the movie are seeing this. This scene was added by Spielberg just to give us (the viewers) a last glimpse of the dinos--it's a bit like breaking the fourth wall. Seen in that way, using a concert version of Jurassic Park is not only permissible, it fits. 

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1 hour ago, Josh500 said:

 

3. The shot of the dinosaurs grazing in the wild somehow doesn't fit with the rest of the movie. There are no humans in this shot, and none of the characters from the movie are seeing this. This scene was added by Spielberg just to give us (the viewers) a last glimpse of the dinos--it's a bit like breaking the fourth wall. Seen in that way, using a concert version of Jurassic Park is not only permissible, it fits. 

 

See, this is where I think the discussion gets really interesting. To me, that final shot sums up the film's commentary on the nature of the animals and the familial instincts that they exhibit that make them more than just genetically engineered monsters. All through the first half of the film we're told that the T-Rexes are fiercely protective of their young and will go to great lengths to preserve their family unit. This is paralleled with Ian, Sarah and Kelly's story, and their final scene as they peacefully sit around the television is meant to complement the shot of the T-Rex family. Emotionally, the original music flows throughout both scenes in a thoughtful and insightful manner to further reinforce this parallel.

 

The choice to use the Island fanfare in the final shot completely undermines that emotion in my opinion, and while it does give a more exciting and adventurous close to the film (and screams "how about another sequel?"), it ultimately changes the message that both Spielberg and Williams were initially trying to make. This to me is representative of the major flaw of the film, which is its struggle to both be an entertaining adventure film and an insightful exploration of family dynamics. The fact that family drama is Spielberg's bread and butter as a storyteller, and the fact he was able to toe that line to perfection so many times in the past, makes it even more jarring.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if it actually turned out that the studio influenced the final decision, particularly with the sequel thing in mind.

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7 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

Emotionally, the original music flows throughout both scenes in a thoughtful and insightful nature to further reinforce this parallel.

 

The choice to use the Island fanfare in the final shot completely undermines that emotion in my opinion, and while it does give a more exciting and adventurous close to the film (and screams "how about another sequel?"), it ultimately changes the message that both Spielberg and Williams were initially trying to make. 

 

Now, with this I don't agree.

 

The Island Theme isn't a mindless popcorn movie theme which represents just fun and excitement. I think this theme represents "the force and beauty of nature"... It's proclaiming loud and clear, "Life will find a way!"

 

It fits, too.

12 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

It wouldn't surprise me if it actually turned out that the studio influenced the final decision, particularly with the sequel thing in mind.

 

I doubt that. It was either Spielberg's decision, or (more likely, imo) both Spielberg's and Williams's decision. 

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20 minutes ago, Rose Dawson said:

It's a movie about a bunch of guys with guns in a forest with dinosaurs.

 

Normally I'd agree with you, but we're talking about a film and score by two of the most gifted storytellers in cinematic history who have a proven track record of making entertaining films with a bit of insight. I don't think it's that unlikely that they may have been attempting to say something interesting while still making a movie about dinosaurs. But go ahead and derail the discussion if you want.

 

18 minutes ago, Josh500 said:

 

Now, with this I don't agree.

 

The Island Theme isn't a mindless popcorn movie theme which represents just fun and excitement. I think this theme represents "the force and beauty of nature"... It's proclaiming loud and clear, "Life will find a way!"

 

It fits, too.

 

Well your mileage may vary, and at the end of the day it comes down to what kind of emotions the music implies for you as a viewer and listener. It's obvious that both versions imply very different emotions, and I very much enjoy discussing exactly what they are for me. I can't tell you what emotions either piece give you personally Josh, only you can decide that. I'm only interested in deconstructing why those emotional beats in particular were chosen, and how they fit into a film as a whole. 

23 minutes ago, Josh500 said:

 

I doubt that. It was either Spielberg's decision, or (more likely, imo) both Spielberg's and Williams's decision. 


That's fair enough, I have nothing to back up that statement and it's pure speculation, but even Spielberg has to answer to studio executives when making a film.

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2 hours ago, Josh500 said:

2. Concert version of the Island Theme was used at the end of JP as well. It mirrors the original JP.

 

That particular argument isn't very convincing to me, since that one was ostensibly not Williams' choice, either - and Williams has voiced his disinterest in watching films he's already scored. He might not have even known about the island fanfare being tracked in JP.

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37 minutes ago, Datameister said:

He might not have even known about the island fanfare being tracked in JP.

 

Wow. You're not... You're not serious, are you? 

 

ROTFLMAO

39 minutes ago, Datameister said:

 

That particular argument isn't very convincing to me...

 

Well, you think JP OS sounds better than  the LLL version, so...

2 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

That's fair enough, I have nothing to back up that statement and it's pure speculation, but even Spielberg has to answer to studio executives when making a film.

 

Yeah, except Spielberg himself is the executive producer (through Amblin). 

 

Point is, we don't know. And this seems to me very unlikely and farfetched.

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Precisely. Directors are a variable in an already risky investment by studio executives. Give them free reign and all their money could go out the window. It's the way it always has been and will be unless the director is fronting the money themselves.

 

It's not always a bad thing either. Look what happened to George Lucas when he was at the top of the chain of command for the prequels. Surrounded by yes men too afraid for their careers to tell him to wake up and smell the bullshit.

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Hands down the "alternate" unused version.

No contest.

 

I also don't like the tracking of the Island Fanfare into Rexie's big moment in JP, completely ruins the flow of that stunning cue.

 

Anyone done a "score restore" vid for that?

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4 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

Look what happened to George Lucas when he was at the top of the chain of command for the prequels. Surrounded by yes men too afraid for their careers to tell him to wake up and smell the bullshit.

 

It's that way in all industries, though. If the CEO has unrealistic goals but you like the paychecks, you don't tell the CEO his goals are unrealistic. 

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11 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

 

See, this is where I think the discussion gets really interesting. To me, that final shot sums up the film's commentary on the nature of the animals and the familial instincts that they exhibit that make them more than just genetically engineered monsters. All through the first half of the film we're told that the T-Rexes are fiercely protective of their young and will go to great lengths to preserve their family unit. This is paralleled with Ian, Sarah and Kelly's story, and their final scene as they peacefully sit around the television is meant to complement the shot of the T-Rex family. Emotionally, the original music flows throughout both scenes in a thoughtful and insightful manner to further reinforce this parallel.

 

The choice to use the Island fanfare in the final shot completely undermines that emotion in my opinion, and while it does give a more exciting and adventurous close to the film (and screams "how about another sequel?"), it ultimately changes the message that both Spielberg and Williams were initially trying to make. This to me is representative of the major flaw of the film, which is its struggle to both be an entertaining adventure film and an insightful exploration of family dynamics. The fact that family drama is Spielberg's bread and butter as a storyteller, and the fact he was able to toe that line to perfection so many times in the past, makes it even more jarring.

 

This! You worded my thoughts better than I ever could :)

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9 hours ago, Josh500 said:

 

Wow. You're not... You're not serious, are you? 

 

ROTFLMAO

 

I am. Williams has made comments before about how he believes a particular score was almost completely used as-is in the film, when in actuality it was hacked to pieces. (I think this was a TPM interview?) He's also commented that he's never seen the final cuts of the Star Wars movies. I'm sure the same holds for many films he's scored. He spends weeks completely immersed in these films. Once he's recorded the music, he doesn't need to see 'em again. He just moves on to the next project. And he's certainly not sitting around in the editing room.

 

I also enjoyed your commentary on me preferring the JP OST. Clearly, the fact that I have different musical tastes means that any evidence I bring to a conversation about facts is invalid. Because that's how logic works, right?

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8 minutes ago, Datameister said:

I also enjoyed your commentary on me preferring the JP OST. Clearly, the fact that I have different musical tastes means that any evidence I bring to a conversation about facts is invalid. Because that's how logic works, right?

 

What evidence? 

 

What musical tastes? This was about sound quality, and anybody can hear that the LLL version sounds noticeably better (and never mind the dynamic range or whatever).

 

What logic? What the hell are you talking about?

12 minutes ago, Datameister said:

 

I am. Williams has made comments before about how he believes a particular score was almost completely used as-is in the film, when in actuality it was hacked to pieces. (I think this was a TPM interview?) He's also commented that he's never seen the final cuts of the Star Wars movies. I'm sure the same holds for many films he's scored. He spends weeks completely immersed in these films. Once he's recorded the music, he doesn't need to see 'em again. He just moves on to the next project. And he's certainly not sitting around in the editing room.

 

He said that, did he? 

 

And therefore you think JW doesn't even know what music was used for the finale of JP.  Seriously, dude. You're kidding right? 

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1 minute ago, Josh500 said:

 

What evidence? 

 

What musical tastes? This was about sound quality, and anybody can hear that the LLL version sounds noticeably better (and never mind the dynamic range or whatever).

 

What logic? What the hell are you talking about?

 

You're claiming that Williams knew about editorial changes to his score. I'm pointing out that he doesn't typically watch his films after he scores them, composers aren't typically involved in the editing room, and that he's made erroneous statements about a score's use before, most likely because of these other factors. That's the evidence I'm talking about.

 

It's a little dismaying to see you completely forget the rather illuminating discussion we had about JP in the other thread. To sum up: your priority is hearing each individual instrument as clearly as possible, with no blending of the timbres. In practice, that means you don't like reverb, which sounds muddy to your ear. I, on the other hand, like some reverb. I also do mind the dynamic range issue and the equalization. Which, surprisingly enough, I'm allowed to do - because hey, different people have different tastes.

 

And again, those tastes have no bearing on whether Williams watches his own films once he's done recording.

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1 hour ago, petaQ said:

 

It's that way in all industries, though. If the CEO has unrealistic goals but you like the paychecks, you don't tell the CEO his goals are unrealistic. 

 

I'm sure the studio executives would ask Spielberg to change something if it were something drastic, but surely not something (relatively) trivial as which JW piece to use for a scene...

 

A studio executive gave Spielberg green light to do JP.... But only if Spielberg did Schindler's List first. 

4 minutes ago, Datameister said:

 

You're claiming that Williams knew about editorial changes to his score. I'm pointing out that he doesn't typically watch his films after he scores them, composers aren't typically involved in the editing room, and that he's made erroneous statements about a score's use before, most likely because of these other factors. That's the evidence I'm talking about.

 

 

That's not evidence. You should look up "evidence."

 

There are many many other instances where Williams did know about the editorial changes done to his score. Does that prove he did know about this one? No.

 

But it's highly likely... I mean it's not some minor little scene. It's the finale of a major Spielberg movie, one of the most important scenes! I understand what you're saying, but sorry, I really thought you were kidding, that's how ridiculous I found your idea....

 

 

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