Brundlefly 2,385 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 7 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said: DUNE is the Lord of the Rings of science fiction. Lord of the Rings will be seen as the Dune of fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 4,714 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, Brundlefly said: Lord of the Rings will be seen as the Dune of fantasy. Tolkien got there first. Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 Interestingly, Tolkien said he didn't like Dune... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 4,714 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, Chen G. said: Interestingly, Tolkien said he didn't like Dune... Completely unsurprising, it's definitely not his cup of tea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blondheim 1,157 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 I agree. Tolkien was trying to build a mythology where there was a lot imagined beyond the borders of his concepts. The barely explained magic systems are one example. Frank Herbert wanted to wow us with the logic of his systems and how they all fit together to make a statement. Dune is more of a manifesto, in a vague way. Tolkien clearly wanted to write a timeless tale with timeless morals. Herbert, a novel with forward-thinking ideas that stimulated the mind. Not that Herbert didn't have an interesting story to tell but notice that it relied on multiple twists. He's clearly trying to be clever. A different kind of clever than Tolkien. That's my take. Muad'Dib and Brundlefly 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,526 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 I tried and failed to read the book last year, gave up before I reached the end of part 1 of book 1 I think. I'm sure this is where everyone tells me it was just about to get good, but what my subjective impression was is that I've seen/read all this before, the characters, the dialogues, the events felt cliché - which is weird because this is probably where they originated and all the inspirations and copycats I got to first followed it a tad too close, so close that I got little to nothing out of the original source material in a hundred or more pages. Whereas when I read Hobbit and LotR, I didn't feel that at all, even knowing a ton of things they inspired, they felt fresh and original in what they were doing and how they were doing it and in what depth they were doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 I think Tolkien had a unique style of writing that draws you in, in a way few other authors can do Stark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blondheim 1,157 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 I think Herbert does too although I would not call his writing as lyrical or influential as Tolkien's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 I've intentionally abstained from reading it or watching the Lynch Dune, purely so that I can see Villenueve's film through fresh eyes and purely as cinema. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Nick1Ø66 4,714 Posted July 23, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 23, 2021 17 hours ago, blondheim said: I agree. Tolkien was trying to build a mythology where there was a lot imagined beyond the borders of his concepts. The barely explained magic systems are one example. Frank Herbert wanted to wow us with the logic of his systems and how they all fit together to make a statement. Dune is more of a manifesto, in a vague way. Tolkien clearly wanted to write a timeless tale with timeless morals. Herbert, a novel with forward-thinking ideas that stimulated the mind. Not that Herbert didn't have an interesting story to tell but notice that it relied on multiple twists. He's clearly trying to be clever. A different kind of clever than Tolkien. That's my take. I think there's some truth to this, but I also think Tolkien's dislike of Dune comes from much more basic level. Tolkien's characters are largely mythological archetypes. He's interested in morality, grace, and virtue, and thought his stories should reflect those things. He wanted to tell heroic tales, and if he has characters with shades of grey (mostly in The Silmarillion), it's typically because they were on their way to falling from grace. Tolkien didn't have "anti-heroes" as we'd think of them today, at most he had heroes who were flawed and Tolkien made clear they were flawed in ways one shouldn't aspire to. In short, Tolkien hated everything about what we'd now call "postmodernism". It shouldn't surprise anyone that Tolkien wanted to tell epic, mythological stories inspired by the Icelandic sagas he loved so much. Dune is much more morally relativistic, and this is reflected in almost all the characters. It's psychologically complex in an arguably Jungian way, that Tolkien would have found to be devoid of meaning. There's also a strain of nihilism and existentialism that Tolkien would have abhorred. Herbert doesn't have heroes as such, and none of his characters are on a hero's journey. Dune is also full of allegory, which Tolkien famously despised. If Tolkien was inspired by the Sagas of the Icelanders, Herbert was inspired by Lawrence of Arabia (a film he loved). I don't want to get into more specifics out of respect to people like Jay and Chen G. who haven't read it or seen the Lynch film, but basically, more or less everything Tolkien hated was in Dune. BTW, none of this is a criticism of Dune on my part. It's a great book in my opinion, and a masterpiece of science fiction that I'd recommend anyone read. But from Tolkien's POV, I get why he hates it. Romão, blondheim, Brundlefly and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,439 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 I started reading the book a few years ago, but didn't finished it for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 2 hours ago, Holko said: I tried and failed to read the book last year, gave up before I reached the end of part 1 of book 1 I think. I'm sure this is where everyone tells me it was just about to get good, but what my subjective impression was is that I've seen/read all this before, the characters, the dialogues, the events felt cliché I don't find it an easy read (which is certainly why I remember little from when I first read it some 20 years ago), but I do find it fascinating. And Herbert could write a suspense-packed scene, like the political banquet in part 1. blondheim and Romão 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 So someone mentioned above the first book features a 2-3 year jump at some point in the narrative. Does it seem likely that the first film would therefore include up to that jump and Film 2 would pick up with each character a little older, or is that jump not at a good splitting point of the story to structure the films that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blondheim 1,157 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 13 minutes ago, Jay said: So someone mentioned above the first book features a 2-3 year jump at some point in the narrative. Does it seem likely that the first film would therefore include up to that jump and Film 2 would pick up with each character a little older, or is that jump not at a good splitting point of the story to structure the films that way? It would be actually. It's hard to get into specifics without revealing things but I and think probably all other Dune fans know where the split will be. It will probably be slightly unexpected in some way but general whereabouts seems inevitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 56 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said: Tolkien didn't have "anti-heroes" as we'd think of them today, at most he had heroes that were flawed, and he made clear they were flawed in ways one shouldn't aspire to. And in any event, they existed within a mythological framework. He also basically hated what we'd now call "postmodernism". I'm fine with discussing the work on this more conceptual level. I don't mind getting a general feel for what the work is: that's probably helpful. I think there's a difference between a tragic hero who has flaws and psychological complexity, but exists within a clear, moralistic framework where his flaws have to be payed-for by a reversal of fortunes (Peripeteia), and an antihero where his would-be "flaws" aren't being judged by the narrative, or are even meant to have the audience sympathize with them in an anti-institutional "sticking it to the man" type of scenario. Tolkien writes many tragic heroes. In fact, he probably writes more tragedy than comedy (here in the Aristotelian sense). The very impetus for his writing his legendarium was to rework a classic tragedy, the Kallavela, and the resulting character of Turin Turamabar has a very complicated psyche indeed. But I really think a better example of how you can write extremly complex people into a story with a clear moralistic framework is in Der Ring Des Nibelungen: Wotan is an extremlly complex character, but he's in no way an anti-hero: he's a good person who is reduced through compromises into all manner of questionable deeds, and ends up paying the price. Really, all the heroes of the cycle - not just Wotan but also Siegmund, Sieglinde, Siegfried and Brunhilde are patently "the good guys" and yet they have a great deal of psychological complexity. Anyway, we'll see how much of this "moral relativism" is retained in the film: the marketing seems to positiong Timothee Chalamet's character as a young hero, and I bet that's how they wrote him for the scren, too. I don't really want to watch a very morally relativistic work: I abhor that kind of stuff just as much as Tolkien did. blondheim and Nick1Ø66 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blondheim 1,157 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 20 minutes ago, Chen G. said: Anyway, we'll see how much of this "moral relativism" is retained in the film: the marketing seems to positiong Timothee Chalamet's character as a young hero, and I bet that's how the wrote him for the scren, too. I don't really want to watch a very morally relativistic work: I abhor that kind of stuff just as much as Tolkien did. I can appreciate both approaches to a story but this is one moment where I hope Paul is painted in darker shades of grey. It's one of my favorite things about the novel Dune and I would be disappointed if they simplified Paul into being a hero or tragic hero. I don't think he is an anti-hero either. Paul is a unique take. It would get into spoiler territory to explain properly. Nick1Ø66 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 Ther'es nothing "simple" about a good tragic hero. That was my point. And I'll take "simple" over morally-relativist crap any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 39 minutes ago, blondheim said: It would be actually. It's hard to get into specifics without revealing things but I and think probably all other Dune fans know where the split will be. It will probably be slightly unexpected in some way but general whereabouts seems inevitable. Would it be a good point? It's 363 pages into a slightly less than 500 pages long novel, so not quite the middle… I figured he first film would cover part 1 and leave parts 2 and 3 for the second film. That would certainly make for a dramatic finale and cliffhanger. But there's obviously stuff from part 2 in the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blondheim 1,157 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 Just now, Marian Schedenig said: Would it be a good point? It's 363 pages into a slightly less than 500 pages long novel, so not quite the middle… I figured he first film would cover part 1 and leave parts 2 and 3 for the second film. That would certainly make for a dramatic finale and cliffhanger. But there's obviously stuff from part 2 in the film. I think so. A lot happens in that finale, it definitely needs spread out for a blockbuster audience to understand. If there are loyal to the novel that is. Inevitably more time will be spent on action sequences during that final sequence, both adapted and newly-created. I also suspect some of Dune Messiah may wind up in there too. I hope not because I think the ending of the book is such a slam-dunk but it's a possibility. 13 minutes ago, Chen G. said: Ther'es nothing "simple" about a good tragic hero. That was my point. And I'll take "simple" over morally-relativist crap any day. Fair. You haven't read the novel and my opinion comes from having read them all. I didn't mean simple as simple-minded, which isn't always the insult I think people think it is but that's beside the point. I actually think simple things can often be more complex than people realize, such as in the case of Tolkien's archetypes mentioned above. I definitely think being grey to be grey is annoying and done far too often to mimic depth. But done right, I really like a lot of what you seem to think of as morally relativist characters. Somewhere between tragic hero and anti-hero lies Paul. He is complex is my point. He's The Matrix by Don Davis, not The Lord of the Rings by Howard Shore. Complex complex vs simple complex. I lean into the darker interpretation of Paul but I have more knowledge of the character. I don't begrudge you wanting a more Tolkien-esque story but the comparisons between the books are only relevant in the influence they had in their genres. They are very different books with very different agendas. I think it would be wrong to force Herbert's book into archetypes and tragic heroes. But that's just me. Nick1Ø66 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 4,714 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 21 hours ago, blondheim said: Somewhere between tragic hero and anti-hero lies Paul. Yeah I think this is right. He’s not a tragic hero, at least in the way Tolkien, or even Shakespeare thought of a tragic hero. But he’s also most certainly not an anti-hero. He’s a complex creation, and there aren’t many like him in literature. Villenueve compared Paul to Michael Corleone, and he’s also been compared to the T.E. Lawrence of the film. I don’t think either quite captures who Paul is, but I also wouldn’t call the comparisons unfair. I think part of Herbert's message is that there are no heroes, and if there are they aren’t to be trusted. In any event, while Paul certainly isn’t on a hero’s quest (though perhaps he starts out that way), I think for the first part of his journey the film will portray him as a hero. blondheim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said: Villenueve compared Paul to Michael Corleone, and he’s also been compared to the T.E. Lawrence of the film. The Godfather: Part II notwithstanding, those are both tragic heroes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blondheim 1,157 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, Chen G. said: The Godfather: Part II notwithstanding, those are both tragic heroes. He does say neither fits. It's probably for that reason. Paul is hard to pin down because he requires reader involvement. He is used to expose your own feelings about certain issues. Every person's experience with Paul is different, at least in the books. That is understandably difficult to adapt to the screen so I've always imagined some simplification but I hope that they remain true to who Paul truly is, that thing that isn't necessarily what I want him to be or what you want him to be either. I agree with the above statements that he will probably be portrayed as a hero at first, which I can understand although it is a dangerous choice to do so imo. Without alluding to something deeper, darker, his darkness will inevitably be looked at as some kind of 'fall' if it's left til later which is exactly what we don't want. Well, it's what I don't want. Nick1Ø66 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 4,714 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 I don’t necessarily see Michael Corleone as a tragic hero. He’s certainly a tragic character, but he’s most assuredly a villain, even if he’s one we can occasionally sympathise with. Michael isn’t a good person with flaws. He starts out relatively good and eventually becomes irredeemably corrupted. Others might disagree, and that’s fine, but I see Michael more as Macbeth, not Hamlet. He’s a protagonist who also happens to be a villainous thug. On the other hand, Lean’s Lawrence probably is a tragic hero, his flaw being vanity. But as I said, those comparisons only take you so far, and neither really sum up Paul. blondheim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 57 minutes ago, blondheim said: He's The Matrix by Don Davis, not The Lord of the Rings by Howard Shore. Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 15 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said: He starts out relatively good and eventually becomes irredeemably corrupted. Well, that's tragedy for you. I think the term "hero" in "tragic hero" is misleading. You could substitute it for "tragic figure." Michael of the original The Godfather is exactly that: he starts as a good person who doesn't want anything to do with the family buisness, and gradually gets dragged into it, and he does suffer for it. I do always say that The Godfather is "more Macbeth than Othello" in the sense that he's the kind of tragic hero/figure that's first reduced to bloodshed quite early. But its nevertheless a well-established version of the tragic hero/figure. Actually, Lawrence is first reduced to bloodshed quite early, too, but the circumstances are very, very different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 4,714 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 5 minutes ago, Chen G. said: That's tragedy. You’re confusing mere tragedy with the tragic hero. 5 minutes ago, Chen G. said: I think the term hero in tragic hero is misleading. You could substitute it for "tragic figure." Well, yes, and tragic character is exactly what I said. You’re the one who called Michael a tragic hero, I was responding to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 "Hero" is here strictly in the sense of "main character." Not in the literal sense of being heroic. Michael Corleone is a tragic hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 4,714 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 I started to type a response, but then I remembered this was a Dune thread and suddenly I lost interest. Sorry. And really mate, there’s no reason to devolve every conversation into a battle over excruciating minutiae. Read Dune and decide what Paul is for yourself. Holko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jay 37,355 Posted July 23, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 23, 2021 25 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said: there’s no reason to devolve every conversation into a battle Yes 26 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said: excruciating minutia Do you know where you are? Stark, Tallguy and Nick1Ø66 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 4,714 Posted July 24, 2021 Share Posted July 24, 2021 Dune & Arrival. Jay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,331 Posted July 26, 2021 Author Share Posted July 26, 2021 I counted 2 jokes in the new trailer. Chen will not be pleased. After all, Dune isn't a comedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted July 26, 2021 Share Posted July 26, 2021 I liked the bit about the kid gaining/not gaining muscle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Nick1Ø66 4,714 Posted July 26, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 26, 2021 29 minutes ago, AC1 said: I counted 2 jokes in the new trailer. Chen will not be pleased. After all, Dune isn't a comedy. Chen hasn't read Dune. I have read it however, and I've gotta say, the jokes in the trailer did feel very out of place to me. Not just in Dune, but in the flow of the trailer itself. They actually sounded quite Marvelesque. There's just not much humour in Dune, and what little there is doesn't sound like modern day quips. I suppose it's to be expected, but I do hope they're not going to try to force too much of that in there. To be honest, almost none of the dialogue in the trailer sounded like anything from the books. But again, I suppose that's to be expected. The movie, and definitely that trailer, is clearly designed to appeal to a mass audience. blondheim, Marian Schedenig and A24 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,439 Posted July 26, 2021 Share Posted July 26, 2021 Meh, I wasn't a fan of the jokes. They reminded me of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in the worst possible way. I wouldn't want for Villeneuve (whose films are as far from comedies as it gets) to "Marvel-ize" Dune to help the box office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,331 Posted July 26, 2021 Author Share Posted July 26, 2021 I agree, based on the type of humor, it feels like Villeneuve is trying to be Marvel (or at least he's trying to appeal to their audience). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted July 26, 2021 Share Posted July 26, 2021 We don't know how much of that kind of humour is in the actual film, though. I mean, you have to have some humour in there. And sure, I HATE MCU-style humour, but if there's just a pinch of it in a 2.5-hour movie? Not an issue. We shall see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 26, 2021 Share Posted July 26, 2021 I hope Villeneuve marvelizes the fuck out of Dune just to annoy the snobs Tallguy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,331 Posted July 26, 2021 Author Share Posted July 26, 2021 Disco wants all movies to be Marvel. Nick1Ø66 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted July 26, 2021 Share Posted July 26, 2021 4 minutes ago, Disco Stu said: I hope Villeneuve marvelizes the fuck out of Dune just to annoy the snobs Dune is kind of like his audition to direct an MCU movie Disco Stu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,331 Posted July 26, 2021 Author Share Posted July 26, 2021 Lucas looked into the future and put a Marvel joke into TESB: HFFG.mp4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,439 Posted July 26, 2021 Share Posted July 26, 2021 "Marvel Studios presents: Avengers 2049, directed by Denis Villeneuve and music by Hans Zimmer" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 4,714 Posted July 26, 2021 Share Posted July 26, 2021 Well as a Lord of the Rings snob, I can say to Dune snobs: Be careful what you wish for. The last thing Dune fans should want is a big hit with massive cultural impact. Otherwise the future is the complete commercialization, exploitation, bastardization and dilution of a work of literature that they love, with Dune themed Denny's menus, Dune salt & pepper shakers and Dune slippers. Which is nothing compared to what will happen when the Twitter and Reddit crowds inevitably descend into vicious, hyperbolic, pseudo-academic arguments about what they think Frank Herbert's real intentions were and whether the cast is appropriately diverse. Or too diverse. And they will. I love the Lord of the Rings films, they're perfect. But the trade-off has almost not been worth it. Dune fans should hope that the film does just well enough to warrant a sequel and then quietly slip out of the popular zeitgeist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted July 26, 2021 Share Posted July 26, 2021 Just one sequel? Wouldn't Dune fans want films to me made out of all 6 of Herbert's original novels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 4,714 Posted July 26, 2021 Share Posted July 26, 2021 4 hours ago, Jay said: Just one sequel? Wouldn't Dune fans want films to me made out of all 6 of Herbert's original novels? I'm sure. But anyone who knows those books knows that there are even more challenges to making the latter books appeal to a mass audience than the first one. We'll see. I frankly don't think it will come to that, IMO the story just doesn't have the kind of culture defining appeal that Lord of the Rings or Star Wars has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted July 26, 2021 Share Posted July 26, 2021 35 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said: IMO the story just doesn't have the kind of cultural defining appeal that Lord of the Rings or Star Wars does. And the circumstances of its coming out and creation are different. Star Wars came out in just the right timing, which is more than could be said for Dune. The Lord of the Rings was essentially a serial shown to audiences over a three-year period, which is already different to the circumstances in which Dune was made: that Warners chose NOT to make both installments back-to-back (indeed, there isn't even a completed script for part two) is evidence enough that in their mind its not "the next Star Wars." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Zimmer 211 Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 19 hours ago, Edmilson said: "Marvel Studios presents: Avengers 2049, directed by Denis Villeneuve and music by Hans Zimmer" Now I kinda want this tbh. Get Deakins on board as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 Please don't. I'd have to start watching the Marvel films. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 New poster: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 I guess you have to have a character poster. But the one I'd frame and put on my wall is the desert planet one. Curious how "cold" the new one looks in comparison though. Even the desert is bluish. Tallguy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallguy 3,386 Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 2 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said: I guess you have to have a character poster. But the one I'd frame and put on my wall is the desert planet one. Curious how "cold" the new one looks in comparison though. Even the desert is bluish. Blue on a blue background does have a Dune connection... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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