The Patriot (John Williams)

[Disco Stu 15,495]

9 minutes ago, publicist said:

at least if you want to critically discuss it (not just fanblaze it). 

 

What if I just want to lose myself in the music?

[publicist 4,643]

Stop critically discussing it.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I don't agree that something sounding familiar is necessarily an automatic negative.  You're operating from a paradigm that novelty is valued above honing a practiced style.  Others might have a different perspective and that doesn't make them braindead fanboys by definition.

[publicist 4,643]

More relativism. It's not a negative, it's just dishonest completely sidetracking the issue. Which is not some exotic occurence, really, here or elsewhere. While fresh, less common and more innovative approaches have it comparably hard. That's why such approaches need more prizes and protection than the hundred fiftieth Potter clone.

[nightscape94 965]

51 minutes ago, publicist said:

Though that sounds like out of the relativist '100 reasons why JW can't suck' rulebook. The quality of the music, at least in part, is defined by its value within a larger repertoire, at least if you want to critically discuss it (not just fanblaze it). So it's only fair to admit that however well written it might be, it also suffers from too much familiarity (in several departments). It's a shoddy movie, anyway...

 

But we're talking about two different ideas.  What you're saying is still different than accusing someone of being on autopilot, which is what I'm trying to get at the heart of.  By implication this would mean that Williams was doing just enough to get the job done with little care or worry about serious artistic merit.  Again, I don't find The Patriot to be some unsung masterpiece, but I do think it's a good score.  When taken in the larger context of Williams' oeuvre, you're right, it gets lost in the well of great scores.  And while a part of that score's overall greatness is diminished when taken as a snapshot, we should still, on some level, not forget to acknowledge its individual character and quality.

 

 

 

 

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

6 hours ago, Stefancos said:

 

You'll piss off Hornist again!

 

No, not really. He said TBT and TFA are some of Johnnys weakest scores and likes his music from the 40's. I say: Thor, eat more codfish, its good for you!

[publicist 4,643]

3 hours ago, nightscape94 said:

But we're talking about two different ideas.  What you're saying is still different than accusing someone of being on autopilot, which is what I'm trying to get at the heart of.  By implication this would mean that Williams was doing just enough to get the job done with little care or worry about serious artistic merit.  Again, I don't find The Patriot to be some unsung masterpiece, but I do think it's a good score.  When taken in the larger context of Williams' oeuvre, you're right, it gets lost in the well of great scores.  And while a part of that score's overall greatness is diminished when taken as a snapshot, we should still, on some level, not forget to acknowledge its individual character and quality.

 

Williams is boring at worst, so yes, even something as minor as 'The Patriot' is at least solidly crafted. Though the quality of the movie, or rather its aspirations, are to blame. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Williams' music is always solidly crafted. I'm not a huge fan of Stepmom, but I can't say that it's not very well written from a compositional point of view.

[publicist 4,643]

No. It's just...boring in a pleasant way.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It suits the film, but isn't something you'd want to listen to outside of the main theme and various moments. Is it? I'm sure it has its fans. Hell, I'm the only one who loves Always. Like Goldsmith once said, a great score works in the film, but can also stand alone. That isn't Stepmom. Here's the last remaining bit of my JWFan card, preserved in a capsule since I thought stock music was Williams' Episode VII score. Burn it.

[Thor 7,457]

4 hours ago, Selina Kyle said:

It suits the film, but isn't something you'd want to listen to outside of the main theme and various moments. Is it? I'm sure it has its fans. Hell, I'm the only one who loves Always.

 

I like ALWAYS! Although I didn't for a great many years. Now I've come to appreciate textural and less theme-driven scores more than when I was a youngster.

 

10 hours ago, hornist said:

 

No, not really. He said TBT and TFA are some of Johnnys weakest scores and likes his music from the 40's. I say: Thor, eat more codfish, its good for you!

 

Ha, ha....the 40s!

 

_{Although I'm fairly positive JW did compose some kiddie stuff in the 40s, heck maybe even the late 30s, that we're not aware of yet.}

[Romão 2,274]

19 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

 

Great motif, that one. Terribly effective.

 

That motif really is effective.

I've always been very fond of this theme too, that I recall Williams playing on the piano in some newscast promotional video for the movie:

 

 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

On Tuesday, March 28, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Disco Stu said:

I've never seen the movie and I don't want to, I prefer the images the music sparks in my imagination.

Many movies' pictures can spoil the music, especially many of Goldsmith's works are ruined, after you've seen the movie.

[Thor 7,457]

Not to me, since I separate so clearly between music-in-films and soundtrack albums. If anything, I find it fascinating to see how the score works in context -- even the crappy movies. THE PATRIOT most certainly isn't, though. I like that film a lot.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

It's an entertaining movie to be sure, but its tenuous connection to anything resembling actual colonial America and the Revolutionary War always kinda bothered me.  Like, it's a really really dumb movie.  And I can like a dumb movie, but this one goes a little far for me.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Is it less accurate than Braveheart?

[Tom 4,632]

2 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

It's an entertaining movie to be sure, but its tenuous connection to anything resembling actual colonial America and the Revolutionary War always kinda bothered me.  Like, it's a really really dumb movie.  And I can like a dumb movie, but this one goes a little far for me.

Well, its not a documentary, so it can do whatever it wants.  Movies like A Beautiful Mind or the Social Network take even greater liberties, which is even worse insofar as these people are actually alive.   Any Hollywood movie the claims to be based on a true story or involve history should be treated as fiction by default. 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

1 minute ago, Stefancos said:

Is it less accurate than Braveheart?

 

Braveheart is very accurate.

 

I  know. I was there.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Probably about the same, actually.  Braveheart is at least a great movie though, while The Patriot is merely a diverting, dumb action movie.

 

14 minutes ago, Tom said:

Well, its not a documentary, so it can do whatever it wants.  Movies like A Beautiful Mind or the Social Network take even greater liberties, which is even worse insofar as these people are actually alive.   Any Hollywood movie the claims to be based on a true story or involve history should be treated as fiction by default. 

 

I'm not talking about changing a timeline or making characters composites of several real people.  The movies you mention started from a place of wanting to do justice to real events and make them work as drama.  The Patriot actively misrepresents the war and the time period.  The filmmakers start from a place of wanting to make a typical dumb action movie and just sort of tried to make it work with the time period.

 

This video might get a little too nitpicky about the accuracy, but some of the points are pretty good actually.  I'm especially bothered by having Mel Gibson have slaves-that-aren't-slaves on his farm just so the audience can feel better about rooting for him.

 

 

[Thor 7,457]

2 hours ago, Tom said:

Well, its not a documentary, so it can do whatever it wants.  

 

Agreed. Historical accuracy is not why I watch THE PATRIOT or, in fact, most historical fiction films. I have documentaries for that. Taking some liberties is fine by me as long as you keep a 'generally correct' timeframe.

 

For me, the film excels in its 'punky attitude'; the raw, gritty brutality as opposed to the lush melodrama. And Mel Gibson in top form, doing his great physically intense acting.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

There's nothing remotely "punky" about The Patriot, I think you're searching for a different word.

[Thor 7,457]

53 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

There's nothing remotely "punky" about The Patriot, I think you're searching for a different word.

 

You know what I mean. "Gutsy" or "energetic", then.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

It's not that important to be historically accurate. Such a movie has to show you the historical circumstances and people's mood. It's the psychology and a neutral view that is important for an political comment. Unlike "Braveheart" "The Patriot" successfully connects the family drama to the historical context, but the movie focuses mainly on the family and some details can diverge from reality. "Braveheart" is just a Gibson-revenge flick, that tries to be realistic by showing incredibly much brutality, which is a typical Gibson trait.

5 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Probably about the same, actually.  Braveheart is at least a great movie though, while The Patriot is merely a diverting, dumb action movie.

The other way round. The title of "The Patriot" is distracting, especially being a Emmerich movie.

[publicist 4,643]

'The Patriot' is a piece of shit and it knows it. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Jason Isaacs definitely knew it

[publicist 4,643]

Well, yes. Most people before and behind the camera do (pr blurbs aside). Count on JWFan to find it ravishing entertainment, though.

[Romão 2,274]

I enjoyed the score, the cinematography and Jason Isaacs, and that's pretty much it

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

There aren't many movies made about that time and event in history, so it's an important film for that at least.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

2 hours ago, publicist said:

'The Patriot' is a piece of shit and it knows it. 

No.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I really really hate that movie.  And I love The Day After Tomorrow so I can love a piece of shit.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Roland Emmerich's finest hour. It's still a steaming pile of crap of course, yet somehow elevated by the performances from Wilkinson, Isaacs and the like. Eminently watchable Sunday afternoon fodder.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

2 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

I really really hate that movie.  And I love The Day After Tomorrow so I can love a piece of shit.

 

It was when I saw TDAT, I was taken aback by how boring it was. All of Emmerich's new movies lacked suspense since then.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Yeah sure, but Jake Gyllenhaal is chased through a library by cold. All is forgiven.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

One isolated good scene just isn't enough to make a movie for me.

[publicist 4,643]

It had bad CGI.

 

But 'Patriot' is about 'something' (always a warning sign with Emmerich) and it has something of everything (bad): war criminals hailed as heroes, negroes finding freedom and equal rights, british toe dippers (even their dogs find them repulsive). It 's not so much that Emmerich made history his comic-book, it's that he made a bad one that is full of shit about a lot of things. But then, it thankfully is largely forgotten now. 'Braveheart' may have its problems but it's art compared to this.

[Amer 2,078]

The Theme is just terrific and I love the fife that is played as a coda on the reprise at the end of the album. But can anyone give an estimate as to how much of unreleased music there is and would it warrant a 2cd release if a new expansion is ever planned?

[Thor 7,457]

I'm reminded yet again about how tough this crowd is. For example, at some point I'd love to see publicist express unadulterated enthusiasm for something.

 

I'm a big Emmerich fan (a lot of the satire in his big movies seem to pass most people by), and nobody does disaster movies as well as him. Didn't care much for ANONYMOUS and WHITE HOUSE DOWN (and found ID4 2 decent, but not more), but other than that I've pretty much liked everything he's done.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

6 minutes ago, Thor said:

I'm reminded yet again about how tough this crowd is. For example, at some point I'd love to see publicist express unadulterated enthusiasm for something.

 

You have to look no further than the beginning of this week:

 

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

His growing dependence on blue/green screening actors in scenes that should have been simple exterior shots are very distracting. I first noticed it in 10,000BC, it was awful in White House Down, and it was almost vomit-inducing in Independence Day Resurgence, especially the final scene.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Well, to be fair, he's far from the only director who's guilty of that. It's just how it is, these days.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

At least other directors try to make it look convincing (Kong: Skull Island being a good example), but Emmerich never bothers.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

2 hours ago, Godzilla said:

At least other directors try to make it look convincing (Kong: Skull Island being a good example), but Emmerich never bothers.

Concerning Emmerich as well as Michael Bay: Is it about art and having a well told story or is it about motherfu...ing money? Why should you be bothered by terrible flaws if your fandom doesn't care?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

22 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

Concerning Emmerich as well as Michael Bay: Is it about art and having a well told story or is it about motherfu...ing money? Why should you be bothered by terrible flaws if your fandom doesn't care?

 

Judging by Independence Day Resurgence's dismal box office performance, I wouldn't call it much of a "fandom".

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

4 hours ago, Thor said:

 Didn't care much for ANONYMOUS and WHITE HOUSE DOWN (and found ID4 2 decent, but not more), but other than that I've pretty much liked everything he's done.

 

Even Stonewall?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

How bad could that one be? Wasn't that meant to be his passion project?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Resurgence was!

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

58 minutes ago, Godzilla said:

How bad could that one be? Wasn't that meant to be his passion project?

 

It was near universally reviled.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

23 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Resurgence was!

 

Stonewall: Resurgence?

[Thor 7,457]

1 hour ago, Sharky said:

 

Even Stonewall?

 

Haven't seen that one yet.

[nightscape94 965]

The Patriot is, of course, a terrible history movie, but decent entertainment.  I did expect better from Robert Rodat, who was hot of the heals of Saving Private Ryan.  I think people are going way too hard on it.  I'd watch The Patriot a 100 times before I watch Independence Day.

 

The Day After Tomorrow is also terrific entertainment, probably Emmerich's best, and I'm not sure it's close.