Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 2 minutes ago, nightscape94 said: The Day After Tomorrow is also terrific entertainment, probably Emmerich's best, and I'm not sure it's close. It's so agreeably goofy. Fun movie. Same for White House Down which I think is one of his best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,384 Posted May 4, 2017 Author Share Posted May 4, 2017 One of the things I love about directors like Roland Emmerich (and even his German colleague Wolfgang Petersen) is how he plays around with American "patriotism tropes"; usually under the guise of surface entertainment. It's actually very subversive. He's also brilliant at narrative builds (from early exposition to 'mayhem' to aftermath), ticking off all the genre boxes while keeping the audience at the edge of their seats. There is rarely much depth to the characters, but almost always a defined arc -- and you care for them because he's so good at creating 'situations'. I could defend directors like Emmerich and Bay all day long; far too often dismissed for all the wrong reasons. Same with 'action auteurs' like Neil Marshall, Paul W.S. Anderson, David Twohy, Stephen Sommers and a few more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 8 minutes ago, Thor said: One of the things I love about directors like Roland Emmerich (and even his German colleague Wolfgang Petersen) is how he plays around with American "patriotism tropes"; usually under the guise of surface entertainment. It's actually very subversive. He's also brilliant at narrative builds (from early exposition to 'mayhem' to aftermath), ticking off all the genre boxes while keeping the audience at the edge of their seats. There is rarely much depth to the characters, but almost always a defined arc -- and you care for them because he's so good at creating 'situations'. I could defend directors like Emmerich and Bay all day long; far too often dismissed for all the wrong reasons. Same with 'action auteurs' like Neil Marshall, Paul W.S. Anderson, David Twohy, Stephen Sommers and a few more. Do you know the term "vulgar auteurism"? It's a recent critical movement that sounds like you'd be a fan of. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgar_auteurism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,384 Posted May 4, 2017 Author Share Posted May 4, 2017 6 minutes ago, Disco Stu said: Do you know the term "vulgar auteurism"? It's a recent critical movement that sounds like you'd be a fan of. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgar_auteurism Yes, I am, and I am a keen supporter of its basis, although less of the term itself, which has too negative connotations. I'm not concerned with the "Uwe Boll"-type vulgarism, but more with the directors who are actually good filmmakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 Ignatiy Vishnevetsky is probably my favorite critic who subscribes to the movement. Great writer. Sharkissimo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,384 Posted May 4, 2017 Author Share Posted May 4, 2017 3 minutes ago, Disco Stu said: Ignatiy Vishnevetsky is probably my favorite critic who subscribes to the movement. Great writer. Agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,382 Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 45 minutes ago, Thor said: One of the things I love about directors like Roland Emmerich (and even his German colleague Wolfgang Petersen) is how he plays around with American "patriotism tropes"; usually under the guise of surface entertainment. It's actually very subversive. He's also brilliant at narrative builds (from early exposition to 'mayhem' to aftermath), ticking off all the genre boxes while keeping the audience at the edge of their seats. There is rarely much depth to the characters, but almost always a defined arc -- and you care for them because he's so good at creating 'situations'. I could defend directors like Emmerich and Bay all day long; far too often dismissed for all the wrong reasons. Same with 'action auteurs' like Neil Marshall, Paul W.S. Anderson, David Twohy, Stephen Sommers and a few more. Well, even Michael Bay has made one really interesting action movie that deals with international and absolute network in a critical way. Display Name 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 7 hours ago, BloodBoal said: You have to look no further than the beginning of this week: Even the Mancini piece i wrote yesterday. I guess Thor just watches too many movies and likewise hangs out with too many guys that affirm even his most dubious instincts. But now i know that the fucking 'Patriot' is elated to the valhalla of 'vulgar auteurism' (must be pretty crowded up there) i of course will give it another fresh look just to see how subversive and fun it really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,384 Posted May 4, 2017 Author Share Posted May 4, 2017 Regardless, it's good to hear that you like things, publicist. Once in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Disco Stu said: Ignatiy Vishnevetsky is probably my favorite critic who subscribes to the movement. Great writer. Armond White's another (ablate selective), although he'd probably object to the term for similar reasons to Thor. I like "pop auteurism." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 4, 2017 Share Posted May 4, 2017 Armond White is a very entertaining writer. I think he might actually be crazy, which is definitely part of his appeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Display Name 60 Posted May 6, 2017 Share Posted May 6, 2017 On Thursday, May 04, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Brundlefly said: Well, even Michael Bay has made one really interesting action movie that deals with international and absolute network in a critical way. Transformers, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightscape94 965 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 I give Michael Bay credit for The Island, which I still maintain is a good movie, and perhaps unfairly underrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,382 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Let's say Michael Bay for "Transformers" and "The Island" and Roland Emmerich for "The Patriot" and "The Day After Tomorrow". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 Independence Day is Emmerich's crowning achievement, but he had to fuck it all up with a terrible sequel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pieter Boelen 740 Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 19 hours ago, Brundlefly said: Let's say Michael Bay for "Transformers" and "The Island" and Roland Emmerich for "The Patriot" and "The Day After Tomorrow". If you're listing Transformers, I'll list Armageddon! As silly as that is, I do still find it massively entertaining. Unlucky Bastard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightscape94 965 Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 But are you laughing with it, or at it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pieter Boelen 740 Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 27 minutes ago, nightscape94 said: But are you laughing with it, or at it? For maximum entertainment value, do both at the same time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 I know for a fact I laugh at The Day After Tomorrow when I watch it. Still love it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,382 Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 Stereotypes meet a great cinematic suspense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Know 325 Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 Lockhart's performance of the "Theme from The Patriot" on the new Lights, Camera, Music cd is really phenomenal. I can't get enough of it -- but I have been hoping for a decent recording of the Signature Edition. This has finally appeared on the Japan Philharmonic's new "Film Spectacular" cd set. Check it out! Pieter Boelen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,274 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 Anyone want to take a stab at how much unreleased music this score has? Here's the cue list (I've highlighted any cue that I think correlates with an OST track, but obviously that isn't a scientific analysis considering Williams' assemblies). 1m3 The Patriot1m4 The North Star1m5 The Letter Scene1m6 Martin and Charlotte1m7 Yankee Dances2m1 Addressing the Assembly2m2 2m2A 2m3Rev The Defeat at Charleston2m3 The Defeat at Charleston2m4 Remembering Fort Wilderness2m5 Walking Among the Fallen2m6-7 Redcoats in the Cornfield3m1 (Insert) Into the Burning House3m1 The Death of Thomas3m2 The First Ambush3m3 After the Ambush3m4Rev Martin and Sons3m5 Martin Leaves the Family4m14m3 Reading the War Map4m4 The Colonel and the Corporal4m5A Anne’s Speech in the Church4m6 The Tavern4m7 More Tavern4m8 Rough Fighter Recruited4m9 Villeneuve’s Training5m1 At Camp5m4 Ann and Gabriel5m5 Ann and Gabriel Part5m6 Tavington’s Ambush5m7 Remembering the Wilderness5m8 Martin to the Stockade6m1 Fort Drums6m2 Tavington vs Martin6m36m4 Tavington to the Plantation6m5 Burning the Plantation6m6 To Gullah Maroon7m1 Burnt-Out Homes7m2 Susan and Father7m3 The Wedding7m4 Ann’s Wedding8m7/8 Preparing for Battle9m1A The British Counter-AttackEnd Credits For comparison's sake, here's the OST tracklist: 1. "The Patriot" 6:39 2. "The Family Farm" 3:04 3. "To Charleston" 2:15 4. "The Colonial Cause" 3:15 5. "Redcoats at the Farm and the Death of Thomas" 4:59 6. "Ann Recruits the Parishioners" 3:09 7. "Preparing For Battle" 5:50 8. "Ann and Gabriel" 4:35 9. "The First Ambush and Remembering the Wilderness" 4:00 10. "Tavington's Trap" 4:10 11. "Burning of the Plantation" 4:55 12. "Facing the British Lines" 3:05 13. "The Parish Church Aflame" 3:03 14. "Susan Speaks" 3:17 15. "Martin vs. Tavington" 3:06 16. "Yorktown and the Return Home" 5:20 17. "The Patriot (Reprise)" 7:50 EDIT: Oops, there's an analysis here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 7,934 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 So yeah, at least 25 minutes plus whatever else they recorded. It's a good score, oddly shunned by some people. Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,274 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 Yeah I'm not sure why it's off people's radars! It's a great score with a very memorable main theme and lots of unreleased music. What's not to like? Will and SteveMc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan 689 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 Maybe it's got something to do with when it came out? It's sandwiched between Phantom Menace and Philosopher's Stone so I suppose it's easy to overlook for a lot of people. I've always liked the score for The Patriot but I do tend to forget about it a lot. crumbs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 It's nothing anyone should spend too much time with, but a few of the quieter cues and the love theme sell it. The 'patriot' material is Williams in his worst populist mode, but it does Emmerich's picture right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,457 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 The Patriot is the best score JW wrote for Mel Gibson! Amer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,382 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 I agree with the auto-pilot argument. It's Williams' meh-score of the 2000s. The BFG, Far & Away, SpaceCamp and Midway are cover the other decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,457 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 11 minutes ago, Brundlefly said: I agree with the auto-pilot argument. It's Williams' meh-score of the 2000s. The BFG, Far & Away, SpaceCamp and Midway are cover the other decades. The flutes can't play this score on the auto-pilot mode at least... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corellian2019 381 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 Bring on the British Grenadiers and Prince Eugene source music! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 7,934 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 3 hours ago, publicist said: It's nothing anyone should spend too much time with, but a few of the quieter cues and the love theme sell it. The 'patriot' material is Williams in his worst populist mode, but it does Emmerich's picture right. Oh it is a painfully formulaic score, that's right. But even the patriotic brassy stuff is a lot of fun. If you can forgive its lack of subtlety, of course. Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 But it comes with a baggage of stuffy 'weighty' string lamenting that kills the fun. You can instantly tell how awful the movie must be with the jolly fife-and-drum fun and the thick adagios because they are so schizophrenic in unison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Brundlefly said: I agree with the auto-pilot argument. It's Williams' meh-score of the 2000s. The BFG, Far & Away, SpaceCamp and Midway are cover the other decades. The Patriot is not meh. Far and Away is not meh. It is a masterpiece, or almost one. The BFG is not really meh. SpaceCamp sounds more than meh. Midway, that sounds a bit autopiloty. Will and Bespin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 7,934 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 Yeah, if you think about it, it's a clash of Williams' dignified Lincoln with his very unsubtle Olympic music. But hey, at least it makes an entertaining and varied album. . Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, crocodile said: Yeah, if you think about it, it's a clash of Williams' dignified Lincoln with his very unsubtle Olympic music. But hey, at least it makes an entertaining and varied album. . Karol I think Williams really was on to something in the Patriot. Not just about the movie, he seems to be saying something about the revolution itself, and the tension between the nobility of ideas and intensity of passions inherent in the American Revolution in particular. Bespin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 Haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 I can be so pretentious, I know. But Williams did mention in interviews that he took the project with something in mind, that the American public did not know enough about the Revolution. Certainly the film does not provide that, though. Bespin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,457 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 Now we really need an expanded release of The Patriot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 Aim small, miss small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 Aim big, hit small? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,621 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 The Patriot is the score that made me a John Williams fan (or at least, the one that prompted me to explore his filmography further (beyond the blockbuster franchise scores)) Bespin and SteveMc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,382 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Steve McQueen said: Far and Away is not meh. It is a masterpiece, or almost one. Certainly not. 2 hours ago, Steve McQueen said: I think Williams really was on to something in the Patriot. Not just about the movie, he seems to be saying something about the revolution itself, and the tension between the nobility of ideas and intensity of passions inherent in the American Revolution in particular. Whatever... Passion doesn't equal quality and talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted December 16, 2018 Share Posted December 16, 2018 42 minutes ago, Brundlefly said: Certainly not. Whatever... Passion doesn't equal quality and talent. Do you argue that the themes in Far and Away are not top notch? Certainly they could have been used a bit better, but they appear very well crafted to me. The Land Race is a great cue. I hear only quality. As for passion, I mean of passions, emotions. The patriotic material in score is very straightforward, and that is intentional. It is done well. Again, quality. Williams cared about the project. So, I can't say he did it on auto-pilot, and I can't say he did not bring his talent to the game. And, to me, the score speaks of this too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrJosh 892 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 I've always enjoyed The Patriot. It might be because I really became serious about John Williams and wanting to seek out all his music around 1999, coinciding with TPM, and The Patriot came up not long afterward. That being said, I feel like I might have liked a David Arnold 'The Patriot' even more...maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 I don't think Arnold could have come up with anything quite as good as the solo violin lines that Williams wrote for the score. MrJosh and Not Mr. Big 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,621 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, Steve McQueen said: I don't think Arnold could have come up with anything quite as good as anything that Williams wrote for the score. Fixed MrJosh and SteveMc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 The cloying love theme could definitely have been improved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,274 Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 I wonder if Arnold ever repurposed his unused themes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,384 Posted December 19, 2018 Author Share Posted December 19, 2018 44 minutes ago, crumbs said: I wonder if Arnold ever repurposed his unused themes? I've wondered that too, but can't really see any project where that particular idiom would presumably be appropriate. THE MUSKEETER, maybe? CHRONICLES OF NARNIA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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