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The Patriot (John Williams)


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I have to say, I really love The Patriot. It's such a wonderful score, and also: it's very diverse.    It has a beautiful love theme for the Heath Ledger character (Ann and Gabriel), some ve

Sure, I can make a rough estimate, especially since a number of the unreleased cues are used in complete form in the film, with the usual caveat that we don't exactly what was actually recorded or not

I have no idea why that could be!

I don't agree that something sounding familiar is necessarily an automatic negative.  You're operating from a paradigm that novelty is valued above honing a practiced style.  Others might have a different perspective and that doesn't make them braindead fanboys by definition.

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More relativism. It's not a negative, it's just dishonest completely sidetracking the issue. Which is not some exotic occurence, really, here or elsewhere. While fresh, less common and more innovative approaches have it comparably hard. That's why such approaches need more prizes and protection than the hundred fiftieth Potter clone.

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51 minutes ago, publicist said:

Though that sounds like out of the relativist '100 reasons why JW can't suck' rulebook. The quality of the music, at least in part, is defined by its value within a larger repertoire, at least if you want to critically discuss it (not just fanblaze it). So it's only fair to admit that however well written it might be, it also suffers from too much familiarity (in several departments). It's a shoddy movie, anyway...

 

But we're talking about two different ideas.  What you're saying is still different than accusing someone of being on autopilot, which is what I'm trying to get at the heart of.  By implication this would mean that Williams was doing just enough to get the job done with little care or worry about serious artistic merit.  Again, I don't find The Patriot to be some unsung masterpiece, but I do think it's a good score.  When taken in the larger context of Williams' oeuvre, you're right, it gets lost in the well of great scores.  And while a part of that score's overall greatness is diminished when taken as a snapshot, we should still, on some level, not forget to acknowledge its individual character and quality.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, nightscape94 said:

But we're talking about two different ideas.  What you're saying is still different than accusing someone of being on autopilot, which is what I'm trying to get at the heart of.  By implication this would mean that Williams was doing just enough to get the job done with little care or worry about serious artistic merit.  Again, I don't find The Patriot to be some unsung masterpiece, but I do think it's a good score.  When taken in the larger context of Williams' oeuvre, you're right, it gets lost in the well of great scores.  And while a part of that score's overall greatness is diminished when taken as a snapshot, we should still, on some level, not forget to acknowledge its individual character and quality.

 

Williams is boring at worst, so yes, even something as minor as 'The Patriot' is at least solidly crafted. Though the quality of the movie, or rather its aspirations, are to blame. 

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It suits the film, but isn't something you'd want to listen to outside of the main theme and various moments. Is it? I'm sure it has its fans. Hell, I'm the only one who loves Always. Like Goldsmith once said, a great score works in the film, but can also stand alone. That isn't Stepmom. Here's the last remaining bit of my JWFan card, preserved in a capsule since I thought stock music was Williams' Episode VII score. Burn it.

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4 hours ago, Selina Kyle said:

It suits the film, but isn't something you'd want to listen to outside of the main theme and various moments. Is it? I'm sure it has its fans. Hell, I'm the only one who loves Always.

 

I like ALWAYS! Although I didn't for a great many years. Now I've come to appreciate textural and less theme-driven scores more than when I was a youngster.

 

10 hours ago, hornist said:

 

No, not really. He said TBT and TFA are some of Johnnys weakest scores and likes his music from the 40's. I say: Thor, eat more codfish, its good for you!

 

Ha, ha....the 40s!

 

Although I'm fairly positive JW did compose some kiddie stuff in the 40s, heck maybe even the late 30s, that we're not aware of yet.

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19 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

 

Great motif, that one. Terribly effective.

 

That motif really is effective.

I've always been very fond of this theme too, that I recall Williams playing on the piano in some newscast promotional video for the movie:

 

 

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On Tuesday, March 28, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Disco Stu said:

I've never seen the movie and I don't want to, I prefer the images the music sparks in my imagination.

Many movies' pictures can spoil the music, especially many of Goldsmith's works are ruined, after you've seen the movie.

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Not to me, since I separate so clearly between music-in-films and soundtrack albums. If anything, I find it fascinating to see how the score works in context -- even the crappy movies. THE PATRIOT most certainly isn't, though. I like that film a lot.

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It's an entertaining movie to be sure, but its tenuous connection to anything resembling actual colonial America and the Revolutionary War always kinda bothered me.  Like, it's a really really dumb movie.  And I can like a dumb movie, but this one goes a little far for me.

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2 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

It's an entertaining movie to be sure, but its tenuous connection to anything resembling actual colonial America and the Revolutionary War always kinda bothered me.  Like, it's a really really dumb movie.  And I can like a dumb movie, but this one goes a little far for me.

Well, its not a documentary, so it can do whatever it wants.  Movies like A Beautiful Mind or the Social Network take even greater liberties, which is even worse insofar as these people are actually alive.   Any Hollywood movie the claims to be based on a true story or involve history should be treated as fiction by default. 

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Probably about the same, actually.  Braveheart is at least a great movie though, while The Patriot is merely a diverting, dumb action movie.

 

14 minutes ago, Tom said:

Well, its not a documentary, so it can do whatever it wants.  Movies like A Beautiful Mind or the Social Network take even greater liberties, which is even worse insofar as these people are actually alive.   Any Hollywood movie the claims to be based on a true story or involve history should be treated as fiction by default. 

 

I'm not talking about changing a timeline or making characters composites of several real people.  The movies you mention started from a place of wanting to do justice to real events and make them work as drama.  The Patriot actively misrepresents the war and the time period.  The filmmakers start from a place of wanting to make a typical dumb action movie and just sort of tried to make it work with the time period.

 

This video might get a little too nitpicky about the accuracy, but some of the points are pretty good actually.  I'm especially bothered by having Mel Gibson have slaves-that-aren't-slaves on his farm just so the audience can feel better about rooting for him.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Tom said:

Well, its not a documentary, so it can do whatever it wants.  

 

Agreed. Historical accuracy is not why I watch THE PATRIOT or, in fact, most historical fiction films. I have documentaries for that. Taking some liberties is fine by me as long as you keep a 'generally correct' timeframe.

 

For me, the film excels in its 'punky attitude'; the raw, gritty brutality as opposed to the lush melodrama. And Mel Gibson in top form, doing his great physically intense acting.

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53 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

There's nothing remotely "punky" about The Patriot, I think you're searching for a different word.

 

You know what I mean. "Gutsy" or "energetic", then.

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It's not that important to be historically accurate. Such a movie has to show you the historical circumstances and people's mood. It's the psychology and a neutral view that is important for an political comment. Unlike "Braveheart" "The Patriot" successfully connects the family drama to the historical context, but the movie focuses mainly on the family and some details can diverge from reality. "Braveheart" is just a Gibson-revenge flick, that tries to be realistic by showing incredibly much brutality, which is a typical Gibson trait.

5 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Probably about the same, actually.  Braveheart is at least a great movie though, while The Patriot is merely a diverting, dumb action movie.

The other way round. The title of "The Patriot" is distracting, especially being a Emmerich movie.

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It had bad CGI.

 

But 'Patriot' is about 'something' (always a warning sign with Emmerich) and it has something of everything (bad): war criminals hailed as heroes, negroes finding freedom and equal rights, british toe dippers (even their dogs find them repulsive). It 's not so much that Emmerich made history his comic-book, it's that he made a bad one that is full of shit about a lot of things. But then, it thankfully is largely forgotten now. 'Braveheart' may have its problems but it's art compared to this.

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The Theme is just terrific and I love the fife that is played as a coda on the reprise at the end of the album. But can anyone give an estimate as to how much of unreleased music there is and would it warrant a 2cd release if a new expansion is ever planned?

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I'm reminded yet again about how tough this crowd is. For example, at some point I'd love to see publicist express unadulterated enthusiasm for something. ;)

 

I'm a big Emmerich fan (a lot of the satire in his big movies seem to pass most people by), and nobody does disaster movies as well as him. Didn't care much for ANONYMOUS and WHITE HOUSE DOWN (and found ID4 2 decent, but not more), but other than that I've pretty much liked everything he's done.

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His growing dependence on blue/green screening actors in scenes that should have been simple exterior shots are very distracting. I first noticed it in 10,000BC, it was awful in White House Down, and it was almost vomit-inducing in Independence Day Resurgence, especially the final scene.

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2 hours ago, Godzilla said:

At least other directors try to make it look convincing (Kong: Skull Island being a good example), but Emmerich never bothers.

Concerning Emmerich as well as Michael Bay: Is it about art and having a well told story or is it about motherfu...ing money? Why should you be bothered by terrible flaws if your fandom doesn't care?

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22 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

Concerning Emmerich as well as Michael Bay: Is it about art and having a well told story or is it about motherfu...ing money? Why should you be bothered by terrible flaws if your fandom doesn't care?

 

Judging by Independence Day Resurgence's dismal box office performance, I wouldn't call it much of a "fandom".

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The Patriot is, of course, a terrible history movie, but decent entertainment.  I did expect better from Robert Rodat, who was hot of the heals of Saving Private Ryan.  I think people are going way too hard on it.  I'd watch The Patriot a 100 times before I watch Independence Day.

 

The Day After Tomorrow is also terrific entertainment, probably Emmerich's best, and I'm not sure it's close.

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