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The Patriot (John Williams)


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1 minute ago, Jay said:

See here to understand better.

 

Thanks!

 

So, Epic is now part of Sony, right? That means no Legends of the Fall expansion for the foreseeable future :(

 

If someone had just expanded the score a little earlier (like, say, in 2014, the movie's 20th anniversary)... It's one of the most beloved Horner scores of the 90s, I really wonder why they didn't decided to expand it. 

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I have to say, I really love The Patriot. It's such a wonderful score, and also: it's very diverse.    It has a beautiful love theme for the Heath Ledger character (Ann and Gabriel), some ve

Sure, I can make a rough estimate, especially since a number of the unreleased cues are used in complete form in the film, with the usual caveat that we don't exactly what was actually recorded or not

Really? Of all the non Indy, non SW Williams scores, I'd much rather have a complete Tintin, Lincoln, Geisha, Amistad, and Hook before The Patriot

17 minutes ago, Jay said:

yes, someone compiled a list of Horner scores under Sony Music in this thread

  

https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=134259&forumID=1&archive=0

 

Lot's of good stuff besides Legends: Sneakers, Deep Impact, Jumanji, Enemy at the Gates, the Zorro scores... Gosh, that's terribly sad.

 

Legends at least had a bootleg that leaked decades ago, the other ones weren't so lucky.

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3 hours ago, Jay said:

There are boots (well, recording session leaks) for Sneakers and Jumanji, plus the isolated score for Jumanji

 

Thanks for clarifying, I really didn't know. Even so, it is still bad that they won't be officially expanded. :(

 

I would love for a C&C version of Horner's Zorro scores. Firstly, because I've heard that there's some quite substantial stuff missing, and secondly... I was never that fan of the scores, so maybe a C&C could change my mind.

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11 minutes ago, Thor said:

God, must every single thread about a film or score develop into C&C discussions?

 

Why not cherish the album as is, and point out highlights within?

 

The highlight is always the forgettable source cue that wouldn't even be included on a C&C presentation.

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It would just be incredibly refreshing to have a thread about a certain title, and then have discussions about the film, how the score works in context or general or specific remarks about the album as is. Without the endless diatribes about 'missing music' and whatnot. You know, like we could some 15-20 years ago. But yes, a pipe dream, I know.

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7 minutes ago, Thor said:

It would just be incredibly refreshing to have a thread about a certain title, and then have discussions about the film, how the score works in context or general or specific remarks about the album as is. Without the endless diatribes about 'missing music' and whatnot. You know, like we could some 15 years ago. But yes, a pipe dream, I know.

 

I guess you'll just have to make your own thread... well, whaddya know!

 

 

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On 9/17/2019 at 4:32 AM, Thor said:

It would just be incredibly refreshing to have a thread about a certain title, and then have discussions about the film, how the score works in context or general or specific remarks about the album as is. Without the endless diatribes about 'missing music' and whatnot. You know, like we could some 15-20 years ago. But yes, a pipe dream, I know.

Does your affinity for OSTs mean that you also never have a problem with what the composer or album producer includes or doesn’t include from the full score? 

 

I ask seriously. Because there’s that thread that talks about JW’s missteps with OSTs that some would argue is borderline sacrilege. If even he is fallible when it comes to album programming, surely there are plenty of OSTs that you must be glad came out C&c so that you could build your own perfect playlist. I just wonder, is all.

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8 hours ago, Bayesian said:

Does your affinity for OSTs mean that you also never have a problem with what the composer or album producer includes or doesn’t include from the full score? 

 

Yes, pretty much. The full score is irrelevant to me; it's mere raw materials and "leftovers" from the film. I require that he or she has sat down, selected his or her highlights, and then arranged them in an order that makes for best listening, hopefully in the 40-60 minute region (although it depends somewhat on the scope of the score, of course). So two things: This creative/artistic act has to have taken place, and it should be representative of the score. Then it qualifies as a proper soundtrack album to me. So if a composer chooses to present a score C&C, for example, it's automatically "disqualified". The creative act has not taken place. So it's a never blind support to the composer no matter what.

 

As for JW, he's never created any missteps in any of his OSTs, as far as I can recall. He's an absolute master at that. Perhaps in JFK, where the non-score cues don't always mesh well with the score cues, but I'm guessing that was not his decision. And perhaps -- since this thread is about THE PATRIOT -- there's a little bit of padding here that could have been omitted for a more succinct experience.

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10 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

Yes, pretty much. The full score is irrelevant to me; it's mere raw materials and "leftovers" from the film. I require that he or she has sat down, selected his or her highlights, and then arranged them in an order that makes for best listening, hopefully in the 40-60 minute region (although it depends somewhat on the scope of the score, of course). So two things: This creative/artistic act has to have taken place, and it should be representative of the score. Then it qualifies as a proper soundtrack album to me. So if a composer chooses to present a score C&C, for example, it's automatically "disqualified". The creative act has not taken place. So it's a never blind support to the composer no matter what.

 

As for JW, he's never created any missteps in any of his OSTs, as far as I can recall. He's an absolute master at that. Perhaps in JFK, where the non-score cues don't always mesh well with the score cues, but I'm guessing that was not his decision.

 

The problem with this mostly one-sided view is that we listeners usually don't know which compromises that had to be made in the assembly of the OST, such as cues that couldn't be included because of delayed or additional recording sessions, time constraints put on the album by higher powers (1 vs. 2 LPs, re-use fees), and so on.

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1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

The problem with this mostly one-sided view is that we listeners usually don't know which compromises that had to be made in the assembly of the OST, such as cues that couldn't be included because of delayed or additional recording sessions, time constraints put on the album by higher powers (1 vs. 2 LPs, re-use fees), and so on.

Thor's OST supremacy is a bit wonky because he's setting the standards by which music is and should be appreciated. There are cues not on an OST album that had just as much care and attention given to them when they were written (with original intent and purpose) for the film that are omitted that I would argue are key components to the 'listening experience' that are missing - especially when one considers the chronological narrative of a score which has themes that evolve etc. I also enjoy listening to some scores in C&C format because there are often thematic elements that are in the cues surrounding the set-pieces that lend some power to those set-pieces (building tension, foreshadowing etc.).

 

1 hour ago, Thor said:

 

So if a composer chooses to present a score C&C, for example, it's automatically "disqualified". The creative act has not taken place. So it's a never blind support to the composer no matter what.

we've had this exchange before, and last time I said the 'creative act' is the score itself - there is no greater creative act. Yes, curating and arranging an album is great, but it is a luxury and is secondary to the score as a whole. I have albums for films where I prefer the OST over the C&C but recognise that's because there are highlights or set-pieces that deserve attention - and that's going to change from listener to listener.

1 hour ago, Thor said:

As for JW, he's never created any missteps in any of his OSTs, as far as I can recall. 

As far as you can recall. I have pined for years for cues or tracks Williams has omitted that wouldn't hinder the listening experience, but expand it! 

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5 minutes ago, Arpy said:

I also enjoy listening to some scores in C&C format because there are often thematic elements that are in the cues surrounding the set-pieces that lend some power to those set-pieces (building tension, foreshadowing etc.).

Exactly why I think most of JW's (big) scores work 100 times better in complete form as a listening experience than in a heavily abridged randomised highlight collection that removes all this context, atmosphere and structure he put a lot of time and work into.

5 minutes ago, Arpy said:

and last time I said the 'creative act' is the score itself - there is no greater creative act. Yes, curating and arranging an album is great, but it is a luxury and is secondary to the score as a whole.

This!!

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2 minutes ago, Arpy said:

we've had this exchange before, and last time I said the 'creative act' is the score itself - there is no greater creative act. Yes, curating and arranging an album is great, but it is a luxury and is secondary to the score as a whole. I have albums for films where I prefer the OST over the C&C but recognise that's because there are highlights or set-pieces that deserve attention - and that's going to change from listener to listener.

 

I suspect no composer would consider a complete score as the optimum presentation of the music away from the film.

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1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

I suspect no composer would consider a complete score as the optimum presentation of the music away from the film.

Yeah, but it's usually beyond their control no matter what - from limited disc space on their end, to the fickle machinations of the people listening to it on our end. They can't please everyone, and they shouldn't try.

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3 minutes ago, Arpy said:

 

Yeah, but it's usually beyond their control no matter what - from limited disc space on their end, to the fickle machinations of the people listening to it on our end. They can't please everyone, and they shouldn't try.

 

I'm just thinking that the composer would like to present the music in the way he/she feels it should be in order to stand on its own away from the film. There's probably less compromises when it comes to an OST assembly than when writing the score in the first place.

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Who could say, though? I think you might be right if we were to take the fact that the OST is a whittling of the complete score, which is itself a tapestry of a larger mess of alternates, different takes, film mixes, early sketches and so on. 

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3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

The problem with this mostly one-sided view is that we listeners usually don't know which compromises that had to be made in the assembly of the OST, such as cues that couldn't be included because of delayed or additional recording sessions, time constraints put on the album by higher powers (1 vs. 2 LPs, re-use fees), and so on.

 

I consider those things nothing more than parameters that the composer has to work within, like the frames of a painting.

 

Where I differ from most people is that I consider album production an artform, almost on par with the composition itself. Just as a screenwriter adapting a book to film. In terms of soundtrack albums, I don't consider the score for the film the finished product that anyone is free to do will as they wish. It's only the beginning of the process, really. Next comes shaping the raw materials into something wortwhile in a different medium. But obiously, quite often I'm forced to make playlists, which is a kind of crisis solution when no alternative exists.

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I just love the trumpets on the ending of this track, so heroic and epic:

 

 

I love when Williams creates this walls* involving the brass section to highlight that something very epic is happening, just like this or on The Spark.

 

*for the lack of a better term, I'm not musically educated to describe precisely what those things are.

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I think The Patriot is special for another reason: unless I forgot anyone, it's Williams' sole score* for those war epic historical movies (non fantasy - sorry, Howard) that followed after Braveheart's success.

 

Horner scored Braveheart itself, The Four Feathers and Troy. Zimmer was on Gladiator, The Last Samurai and King Arthur. Goldsmith scored First Knight and The 13th Warrior. Harry Gregson-Williams was on Kingdom of Heaven. Heck, if you want to count it, even Marc Streintenfeld of all people scored his epic, Robin Hood (his best score, which is not saying much).

 

Williams, however, was just on Patriot. I can imagine Emmerich's line of thinking on hiring him: "So far, I've done only silly sci-fi movies for kids. But now I'm gonna make a historical epic with the star of Braveheart that'll be just like Braveheart, but on the American Revolution! It's gonna have a love story, a cruel villain, epic battles and Mel Gibson - oh, my gosh, I'm gonna win so many Oscars next year! Since my collaboration with Arnold isn't working, I'll hire the greatest composer of all time to score my masterpiece". 

 

And, as good as Patriot is, I like to imagine how Williams' other contributions for the war epics of that era would have been. Can you guys imagine a Williams score for Troy or Kingdom of Heaven? I can only theorize that Williams' hypothetical KoH would have sounded like the Middle Eastern material of Munich mixed with the religious and reverent music of The Face of Pan and The Last Crusade.

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On 9/19/2019 at 8:49 PM, Jurassic Shark said:

It's historical. It's got epic scenes. It involves a long journey.

 

Yes. "An epic is a long poem or other work of art celebrating heroic feats. ... We tend to use epic for long, ambitious novels or movies, especially if they involve a long journey. Epic can be used as an adjective to describe something historically important, lasting and complex."

 

SPR can be considered as a War Epic.

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56 minutes ago, crumbs said:

I wonder if Emmerich asked Williams to score all of his movies post-Patriot?

 

Fixed.

 

It's hard to imagine for sure, but that would have been an interesting pairing. Just imagine a Williams score for Dar After Tomorrow or 2012? Certainly it would be a lot more interesting than Kloser and what Wander (who is no wonder) did.

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5 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

It's hard to imagine for sure, but that would have been an interesting pairing. Just imagine a Williams score for Dar After Tomorrow or 2012? Certainly it would be a lot more interesting than Kloser and what Wander (who is no wonder) did.

 

Perhaps, but I consider that particular score -- THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW -- the best in the Emmerich/Kloser(/Wander) collaboration.

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1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

 

Fixed.

 

It's hard to imagine for sure, but that would have been an interesting pairing. Just imagine a Williams score for Dar After Tomorrow or 2012? Certainly it would be a lot more interesting than Kloser and what Wander (who is no wonder) did.

A John Williams score for White House Down!

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7 hours ago, Thor said:

 

Perhaps, but I consider that particular score -- THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW -- the best in the Emmerich/Kloser(/Wander) collaboration.

 

Agreed, that's actually quite a good pairing to the film. The theme is memorable and the opening and closing cues are very well scored.

 

He really should've brought back Arnold for ID42 though. That score was thoroughly mediocre and didn't elevate the mediocre material.

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