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The Patriot (John Williams)


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I have to say, I really love The Patriot. It's such a wonderful score, and also: it's very diverse.    It has a beautiful love theme for the Heath Ledger character (Ann and Gabriel), some ve

I have no idea why that could be!

With the discussion of the scores that have the most unreleased cues, I was curious to take a closer look at The Patriot. Here’s a breakdown of the OST:   1 The Patriot 6:40 End Credits

@BrotherSound how much music would those 20 unreleased cues contain? Are the minutes calculable? 

 

I'm hopeful LLL have this up their sleeve for BF. It's the 20th Anniversary, no obvious licensing hurdles to contend with, and they've expanded Emmerich films in the past (so Centropolis must be AOK with score expansions).

 

They also mentioned in that recent video that they're trying to make some anniversary deadlines this year. 

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I have a doubt. If 1M5 is "The Letter Scene", which cue would be the music for that scene at the beginning of the movie when Gabriel goes to war and writes a letter to his family, which is read in voice over? If I remember correctly, the music is a little similar to "Yorktown and Return Home", but a little sadder.

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11 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I have a doubt. If 1M5 is "The Letter Scene", which cue would be the music for that scene at the beginning of the movie when Gabriel goes to war and writes a letter to his family, which is read in voice over? If I remember correctly, the music is a little similar to "Yorktown and Return Home", but a little sadder.

 

The scene where Gabriel reads the letter is scored by 2M3 Rev - The Defeat at Charleston. And yes, it's a sad but lovely bit of music. The OST contains the entirety of 1M5 The Letter Scene in the track "To Charleston", which scores the scene where they open the letter with the invitation to the assembly and travel to Charleston, before Gabriel has enlisted.

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I think part of it is most of what wasn't on the OST for The Patriot, you can at least hear in the film; With Tintin, we know there's tons of music that got completely replaced so we haven't heard a drop of.

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I'd say 

 

1)Patriot .Missing so much music

2)Tintin . I feel this would be a better listening experience  complete but overall like it less than Patriot

 

Hook is sort of fine as it it . Mix good sound bootleg and LLL is ok. Did a good enough edit of the feast insert using the Concorde boot segment (appears twice on the boot, one of them is easier to edit)

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On 9/6/2020 at 6:43 PM, Brundlefly said:

Why the fuck is Lincoln on that list?!

 

Why so rude with the question? Damn. 

 

Anyway, what are you even trying to ask me? 

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On 9/1/2020 at 9:53 PM, Jay said:

Really? Of all the non Indy, non SW Williams scores, I'd much rather have a complete Tintin, Lincoln, Geisha, Amistad, and Hook before The Patriot

 

I'm sure there's some music missing but my understanding was that Lincoln is pretty much complete (OST and FYC). I'll prefer also Tintin than The Patriot, but I'll happily buy any of these if/when they're released. Memoirs of a Geisha is also a wonderful score, but again I'm not very familiar with the amount of music missing in the OST.

 

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7 hours ago, Jay said:

Why so rude with the question? Damn. 

 

Anyway, what are you even trying to ask me? 

I wasn't trying to sound rude, but instead to express my level of confusion.:lol: Although Lincoln is my favourite score from the 2010s, I see no reason to expand it. It is pretty much complete.

 

From that era War Horse would be a much more worthwhile candidate for an expansion. Nevermind, I don't think of or expect any expansions of the post-2005 scores.

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5 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

I wasn't trying to sound rude, but instead to express my level of confusion.:lol: Although Lincoln is my favourite score from the 2010s, I see no reason to expand it. It is pretty much complete.

 

Ah OK it didn't come across that way.

 

Really, I was just expressing my personal preference; Currently, I like Lincoln's score more than The Patriot's score, do I'd rather have an expanded Lincoln on my shelf than an expanded The Patriot; Simple as that.

 

To be clear, I like both scores, and want expanded versions of both (I want complete versions of every score JW ever wrote!), I was simply stating a personal preference.  I think the Lincoln score is really REALLY good, and I want all of it!  I like The Patriot's score, but I rarely listen to it; maybe I just haven't connected with it yet.  I saw the film once in theaters 20 years ago and don't remember much about it, and have not sat down and checked out the music that isn't on the OST to see how it would alter the experience.  In fact with some scores I purposely don't do this, so that the eventual expanded release is a cool new revelation instead of just "exactly what I already know, just without sound effects now".

 

And nah, it's not fair to say that between the FYC and OST, Lincoln is basically complete; We do of course have most of the music we know about (IE, music we can hear in the film or on the OST), but there are 5 scenes in the movie with original JW music we don't have, and there is also tons of music recorded that both isn't on the OST OR in the film so we've literally never heard it.  I think a Lincoln expansion would be a great new musical adventure to go on.

 

 

5 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

From that era War Horse would be a much more worthwhile candidate for an expansion. Nevermind, I don't think of or expect any expansions of the post-2005 scores.

 

I'm sure that stupid fee structure will get modified at some point

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14 minutes ago, Jay said:

I'm sure that stupid fee structure will get modified at some point

 

It seems crazy there doesn't even appear to be a fee reduction every X years post-recording, say 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, etc.

 

Memoirs of a Geisha was recorded 15 years ago but my understanding is that musician fees for an expansion would cost the same as hiring the orchestra back in 2005 (and that's not even factoring in costs for the composer or studios).

 

Didn't the previous structure work on a sliding scale of cost reductions every 5-10 years? Hence the surplus of expansions that coincided with milestone anniversaries. Theoretically we could have seen a Lincoln expansion in two years if that was still in play.

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Here's Mike Matessino's explanation if that helps

 

On 12/1/2019 at 12:31 PM, Jay said:

For AFM recordings made before July 3, 2005, NO reuse needs to be paid to the musicians at all, provided a) that it’s for a physical format release with a 5000 unit maximum, and b) that the musicians list is published, preferably in the packaging. For recordings made after that date, whatever the musicians were paid to record the score for the film has to be paid to them again, 100%. That’s why it’s called “reuse”. They were paid to play music for sync purposes, but an album is a new use.

 

So, hypothetically, if 120 people were paid $360,000 to record the music for the film (musicians, orchestrators, copyists, at an average of $3K a person), then a label would have to pay that exact same amount to AFM in order to put out an expanded album. That makes it impossible to consider even before you get to licensing, publishing, production and manufacturing.

 

The 2005 date was established in 2015 and applied to recordings going back 10 years prior, but unfortunately it was not a “sliding” date as it really should have been.

 

Mike

 

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If you read what Mike says, he said the label would have to pay the AFM, not track down and pay each member individually.  So, it seems the AFM itself would have some system in place for where money goes when the performers are diseased, and that death doesn't affect what a label would have to pay to the AFM

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7 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

I wasn't trying to sound rude, but instead to express my level of confusion.:lol: Although Lincoln is my favourite score from the 2010s, I see no reason to expand it. It is pretty much complete.

 

1 hour ago, Jay said:

And nah, it's not fair to say that between the FYC and OST, Lincoln is basically complete; We do of course have most of the music we know about (IE, music we can hear in the film or on the OST), but there are 5 scenes in the movie with original JW music we don't have, and there is also tons of music recorded that both isn't on the OST OR in the film so we've literally never heard it.  I think a Lincoln expansion would be a great new musical adventure to go on.


There should be at least 20 minutes unreleased, and potentially as much as 35, depending on which alternates were recorded or not.

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4 minutes ago, Jay said:

If you read what Mike says, he said the label would have to pay the AFM, not track down and pay each member individually.  So, it seems the AFM itself would have some system in place for where money goes when the performers are diseased, and that doesn't affect what a label would have to pay to the AFM

 

Interesting!  Obviously it won't affect us in one way or another since we'd be long gone before those chickens come home to roost (and honestly the amount any score would get "reused" after the initial 10 year post-recording window, especially at that cost, would be negligible).  It almost seems like they negotiated themselves OUT of money in this circumstance, asking for so much that nobody can afford to reuse the music at all.

 

 

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14 hours ago, Jay said:

 

And nah, it's not fair to say that between the FYC and OST, Lincoln is basically complete; We do of course have most of the music we know about (IE, music we can hear in the film or on the OST), but there are 5 scenes in the movie with original JW music we don't have, and there is also tons of music recorded that both isn't on the OST OR in the film so we've literally never heard it.  I think a Lincoln expansion would be a great new musical adventure to go on.

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed and I too would be in favour of LINCOLN as its a very simple but multi layered score. It grows on you rapidly. Speaking of unrleased music I believe Williams did mention in an interview they recorded many hours of music before settling on the right cues. So we can expect many alternates here. (Dont remember which interview article it was at the moment but I do remember disntinctly it was a print interview)

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