The Music of Star Wars vs. LOTR [POLL]

[Chen G. 3,944]

11 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Shore's scores are indeed more sentimental, by a good margin, but that doesn't mean better.

 

He’s scoring a film, which is a dramatic medium (i.e. one that appeals to sentiment), so I would say yes, it does.

[Arpy 4,145]

Yeah, it's always going to subjective, I just think the arguments made for the case of Star Wars are weaker. The question should be more specific as to which Star Wars, because as a body of work, it's a bit haphazard in it's 40 plus years. Both are incredible, there's no doubt there.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

He’s scoring a film, which is a dramatic medium (i.e. one that appeals to sentiment), so I would say yes, it does.

 

Not when the sentimentality of the score tends to be over the top.

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

8 minutes ago, Arpy said:

You can't criticise the scores for lacking a theme - there's dozens in Lord of the Rings, and I would argue are just as strong as any in Star Wars.

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

I guess JW is just better at writing themes, and better at using them.

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

Orchestration too, if that is what you mean, elevating and reenvisioning a film beyond anything it's worth.

 

But, I really do love (and prefer) LoTR as a series, and it has a good score. Part of the reason it's higher-rated is due to the film content. I think Williams would've blown up the industry had he attempted it. I can't even imagine the end product, for around 2001 (but I admit now I'm being hypocritical using my imagination about hard work that Williams never did that Shore did.)

[Arpy 4,145]

Yeah, it's a tough crowd, but what did I expect at JWFan? ShoreFreaks? 

 

I don't think the themes, at least not all of them are stronger in Star Wars. Revoke my JWFan membership.

9 minutes ago, Borodin said:

Orchestration too, if that is what you mean, elevating and reenvisioning a film beyond anything it's worth.

 

Just as Shore did with LotR. 

[Chen G. 3,944]

That Dwarrowdelf theme, for instance. The sympathy it evokes for the bygone Dwarvish golden era. Or the great sense of yearning imbued into the Erebor/Thorin material; or the nobility of the Minas Tirith theme. Or the glory of the Destruction of the Ring theme.

 

I mean, that’s...that’s beautiful.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

11 minutes ago, Borodin said:

But, I really do love (and prefer) LoTR as a series, and it has a good score.

 

It was better than most contemporary film music when it was written, especially the score to FotR.

[Arpy 4,145]

5 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

It was better than most contemporary film music when it was written, especially the score to FotR.

It's still greater than most of the film music out today. 

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

The above is pretty much true, and I really do enjoy hearing your perspectives on these scores, even if I have a different impression on talent.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 minute ago, Arpy said:

It's still greater than most of the film music out today. 

 

ROTK represents the end of an era, for film music. Imo.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

This is JWFan and we shouldn't have to make an argument for Star Wars. It is simply the epitome of everything that is great about JW and why this webzone exists. Lord of the Rings can suck it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

We can have opinions that are different than "John Williams' music is always better than anything anymore else has ever done".

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

8 minutes ago, Arpy said:

It's still greater than most of the film music out today. 

 

It's even better when comparing to what's coming out today.

[Oomoog the Ecstatic 314]

We need one of those Star Wars OT vs Lord of the Rings OT polls where we vote for which is better movie and which is better score.

 

I mean, we have one for Alien vs ESB, Silence of the Lambs vs Se7en, Jaws vs Alien, Star Trek vs Alien. Actually now that I mention it, they're all about Alien.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

5 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

We can have opinions that are different than "John Williams' music is always better than anything anymore else has ever done".

 

We're not talking about Batman or Titanic here.

[publicist 4,643]

I still prefer Shore in more intimate and/or experimental surroundings. And i play devil's advocate and say that Williams deserved a better late-career finish, preferably one more along the lines of A. I.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 minute ago, publicist said:

And i play devil's advocate and say that Williams deserved a better late-career finish

 

Agreed. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Howard Shore's best scores are The Fly and Ed Wood!

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

Hopefully he isn't quite finished yet.

[Quintus 5,399]

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I guess JW is just better at writing themes, and better at using them.

 

The themes or motifs of LotR are very strong actually. They feel organically intertwined with the images to the point that the fabric of the photography and the music are inseparable, they are one.

 

No, what I've said all along is that the main distinction between the two scores is the quality of the action music. On a technical level (and on a listenability level too), Williams is just too far ahead in that area than anybody else, which is why his setpieces would always sound so endlessly interesting and "catchy". The sheer amount of intuitive detail he builds into his action writing is frankly just beyond anything in Shore's LotR. This isn't to say I don't enjoy what Shore composed for the more thrilling scenes in LotR; in fact I love the great majority of it, with the action work being one part of what is a massive and amazing tapestry of musical soundtracking. But objectively, it just isn't as musically interesting as what Williams provided for "equivalent" scenes in Star Wars. Strictly within the constraints of action material, the technical aspect does give Star Wars an advantage.

[Chen G. 3,944]

Another thing Shore goes for that Williams doesn't in Star Wars is horror music. The Shadow of the Past can make one's skin crawl, especially that statement of Nameless Fear - its on-par with Shore's best work on the likes of Silence of the Lambs.

 

And the music for the spiders. I mean, damn!

[Quintus 5,399]

Which statement do you mean exactly? I'm probably going to agree when I know the part you're referring to.

[Chen G. 3,944]

 

Creepy!

[Quintus 5,399]

Wait that's a motif? I've never noticed this occuring elsewhere. I just always thought of it as being incidental underscore in that scene. It's very, very powerful in the film, though. But I suppose I considered it to be suspense writing; less horror. But maybe it is horror.

[Chen G. 3,944]

I believe its the "Nameless Fear" motif. It appears in the prologue, and again when Galadriel recaps the story in The Two Towers.

 

Whatever it is - motif or not, suspense or horror - its scary.

[Quintus 5,399]

Scary more because of the subject. Otherwise I just think of it as being dramatic writing. Not horror per se.

 

If we're talking unsettling doom music, I really really love the descending figure that accompanies the Ring verse as delivered by Gandalf in Bag End. It's grim as fuck!

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

22 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Creepy!

 

Shore knows how to be creepy!

[Thor 7,478]

Shore has never been as creepy as Williams is in IMAGES, not even if you include his Cronenberg efforts. Heck, I'd argue that even "Barry's Abduction" bests any horror track from Shore. But that's a different discussion.

[Chen G. 3,944]

I’m not comparing Shore to Williams: I’m comparing Middle Earth to Star Wars.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

You're comparing Jackson's adaptation of Middle Earth to Star Wars.

[Thor 7,478]

2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I’m not comparing Shore to Williams: I’m comparing Middle Earth to Star Wars.

 

Yeah, I know. Just wanted to make a more general remark.

[Arpy 4,145]

1 hour ago, Quintus said:

 

The themes or motifs of LotR are very strong actually. They feel organically intertwined with the images to the point that the fabric of the photography and the music are inseparable, they are one.

 

No, what I've said all along is that the main distinction between the two scores is the quality of the action music. On a technical level (and on a listenability level too), Williams is just too far ahead in that area than anybody else, which is why his setpieces would always sound so endlessly interesting and "catchy". The sheer amount of intuitive detail he builds into his action writing is frankly just beyond anything in Shore's LotR. This isn't to say I don't enjoy what Shore composed for the more thrilling scenes in LotR; in fact I love the great majority of it, with the action work being one part of what is a massive and amazing tapestry of musical soundtracking. But objectively, it just isn't as musically interesting as what Williams provided for "equivalent" scenes in Star Wars. Strictly within the constraints of action material, the technical aspect does give Star Wars an advantage.

There's no action scenes in lotr that require the bombast, thrills and ingenuity of Williams scores, the battle scenes are restrained until the choral outbursts in RotK. So oranges and apples...

[Quintus 5,399]

The whole thing can be considered apples and oranges. But do you want a discussion to happen on the forum or not?

[Arpy 4,145]

Not if you're going to throw around the word 'objectively'!

[publicist 4,643]

I know where i go for a bit of jolly good action music, and it's neither to Shore or Williams.

[Quintus 5,399]

Club Tropicana?

[publicist 4,643]

Getting warm but not quite there.

[gkgyver 1,645]

6 hours ago, Thor said:

Shore has never been as creepy as Williams is in IMAGES, not even if you include his Cronenberg efforts. Heck, I'd argue that even "Barry's Abduction" bests any horror track from Shore. But that's a different discussion.

 

It's also a vastly different subject. 

[Thor 7,478]

Yes, I just said so. Related, though.

[gkgyver 1,645]

No, they're two different subjects with two different approaches. 

[Quintus 5,399]

So, apples and oranges?

 

I mean, The Fly has good horror music.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The Fly is an excellent score.

[Marian Schedenig 8,178]

17 hours ago, Stefancos said:

ROTK represents the end of an era, for film music. Imo.

 

That's because Goldsmith died soon after ROTK was released.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

William didn't die. So your theory is sketchy.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Soon after ROTK the Transformers and Dark Knight and Pirates movies happened, which became the shitty template for the new generation. That's what happened