John 2,032 Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 I know there has been some backlash against the large amount of polls created recently, but this is a poll that had to be made. Which film and score is your favorite from the epic The Lord of The Rings trilogy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Have we not done this already? FotR is the best film. RotK is my favourite film. RotK is also my favourite of the scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 4,714 Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 I rank the films and the scores in the same order....the order of their release. Though I confess that while I think FOTR is absolutely the best of the trilogy, my fondness for the score may be based in sentimentality. Objectively speaking, both the subsequent scores are at least as good, if not better (though I've always felt ROTK "felt" different from the first two). 1 hour ago, KK said: Have we not done this already? I haven't been around that long, but I was thinking....hasn't pretty much every topic imaginable regarding any genre film or score be covered already around here? As someone who hasn't been around that long, I'd love to see a robust discussion of the SW OT scores vs. the LOTR scores. Both as individual scores and a lifetime achievement. But I'm sure THAT'S been done more than once also. So bring back the JWfan greatest hits I say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 55 minutes ago, Nick1066 said: As someone who hasn't been around that long, I'd love to see a robust discussion of the SW OT scores vs. the LOTR scores. Both as individual scores and a lifetime achievement. But I'm sure THAT'S been done more than once also. There you go: Nick1Ø66 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 4,714 Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 42 minutes ago, BloodBoal said: There you go: Thanks mate....site film critic and historian I see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,528 Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 TV: THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING EE: THE RETURN OF THE KING Score: I have no preference, as I view them as one piece of work. SafeUnderHill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 4 minutes ago, Richard said: EE: THE RETURN OF THE KING I'm not usually someone who gets hung up on minor errors or picks nits, but for some reason whenever I think about the ROTK EE I immediately think about the "disappearing body of Mouth of Sauron" continuity error. But overall, yeah that's probably my favorite EE too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,528 Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 I'm not quite sure what you mean about the disappearing mouth, but in it's extended form, ROTK is a deeper, richer film. Also (and let's not beat about the bush, here)...Christopher Lee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Here is Aragorn killing the Mouth of Sauron: Then at 3:13 of that video, after it's cut back to the theatrical version, they ride away from the Black Gate and the horse, body, and head of the Mouth of Sauron is gone. It doesn't bother me all that much, but it does take me out of a bit when I'm watching the movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. A. Ron 1,742 Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Movie: The Fellowship of the Ring -- Basically my favorite movie adaptation of a novel ever. Score: Return of the King -- Can't even tell you how much I love the final disc of the CR. Just perfect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,363 Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 On 5/24/2017 at 2:24 PM, Nick1066 said: I rank the films and the scores in the same order....the order of their release. This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,385 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 LotR is one of few trilogies where the newer the film is the better it is. Dollar-trilogy being another example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chen G. 3,949 Posted October 14, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 14, 2017 VERBOSE ALERT! I'm in two minds on this. On the one hand, since they were all made simultaneously, they have a greater unity than any other film series in existence and hence it generally isn't as easy to point out the strongest and weakest of the bunch. It's more of a case of choosing a "favorite" than an outright "better" film. On the other hand, editing goes a long way and just like one of the three acts of a single film can be better, so too can one of the three films be considered the better of the three. I know that Peter Jackson and other members of the production team have a preference to one of the films: in the documentary they even mentioned that executives found Return of the King to be the best script. Now, on the more cerebral film critic circles I've often heard the claim that Fellowship of the Ring is the best. It's certainly the most faithful adaptation, and it doesn't fall into the trappings of a concluding film that Return of the King falls into with Denethor or the multiple endings. But, Fellowship is only "better" on the technical level by virtue of the fact that it has less moving parts. If you're going for a bigger sweep (as the filmmakers did with Return of the King), there are more chances of errors, but even if you do fall into those errors, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's an inferior film. Lindsay Ellis calls Fellowship the best by virtue of being "the most consistent" but no-one goes out of the theater, looks to his friend and say: "well, that was a perfectly consistent movie!" But they go out of the theater while still sobbing from the sheer glory of witnessing Sam carrying Frodo up Mount Doom! Since the material in Return of the King is more inherently emotional, it succeeds beyond its predecessors on the level of drama, which is the heart of this series. And, to me, it does so better than any of the cinematic hallmarks or "high dramas". And it does so consistently, across multiple viewings from quiet night-time viewing on a small TV screen (people were sleeping in the same room!) to a big TV bluray watching to the big screen. In December I'd also know how it works with a live orchestral accompaniment. A bad "epic" provides action and largesse on the expense of a personal, dramatic story; a good epic blends the two together. But a truly great epic uses the grandiose action and scope to leverage the personal drama into new heights. And that is what makes Return of the King my most revered film of all time. As for which is the best score, I lean towards Return of the King as well, simply by virtue of the moments to which the music is attached. Musically as it is visually, it is the conclusion to end all conclusions, but to truly make up my mind on the matter, I have a little argument to settle among myself regarding the scores, which will probably require of me to listen to the whole sextet in sequence. Brundlefly, Jay and John 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John 2,032 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 I agree with Chen G.! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,363 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 @Chen G. that's an excellent post right there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 It has been an encouraging period of time, but Fellowship for both answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 I love them all as one, but I return to the first on its own more than the other two. Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Its the best of the three overall. The most focused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 It also has the best memories attached to it, the first time experiencing it all. I still remember the first night in the theater. It was such a visceral experience of Tolkien's vision, all so impeccably and singularly crafted, really awe inspiring. We all knew it was going to be huge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 6 hours ago, Stefancos said: Its the best of the three overall. The most focused. But not the most dramatic. If I were to distill the verbal chunk I wrote above, I'd say this: that it is the least-flawed (or, better yet, closest to being "technically" perfect) entry doesn't necessarily mean that its the best Although again, if I favor Return of the King better its only by a hair. They're all cut from the same cloth. The same is true, for me, in trying to pick a favorite out of The Hobbit trilogy. In both cases its the result of the filmmakers having scripted, filmed and assembled all three at the same time. SafeUnderHill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,688 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 The problem here is that I'd say Fellowship for both, but it's unfair to some extent because the stories get inherently more complex, and time was clearly becoming a luxury, as the trilogy went on. Shore's FotR feels more streamlined, whereas by RotK, I can't shake the feeling that he had written certain bits very quickly, and it shows. PJ was juggling so many storylines by RotK, and while he did a fantastic job (compared to some attempts at epics), I don't think it's as good and 'clean' as FotR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, Richard Penna said: The problem here is that I'd say Fellowship for both, but it's unfair to some extent because the stories get inherently more complex, and time was clearly becoming a luxury, as the trilogy went on. Shore's FotR feels more streamlined, whereas by RotK, I can't shake the feeling that he had written certain bits very quickly, and it shows. PJ was juggling so many storylines by RotK, and while he did a fantastic job (compared to some attempts at epics), I don't think it's as good and 'clean' as FotR. Pretty much my feelings as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 I think The Two Towers shows the signs of Shore going through the material (composition and production-wise) in a hurry, much more than Return of the King. If one gets this feeling from Return of the King, I think its because of Shore's knack (in that specific film) to pit the themes against one another and create this dense score with all these similar-sounding hybrids. But that's a deliberate choice, rather than a flaw in the scoring process. With The Two Towers, however, Jackson delivered the film very late, and if you compare the length of the CR to the movie length (minus additional credits), The Two Towers is by far the most thinly scored. It also features more tracking, including one really egregious example: When Legolas watches the Wargs arrive, we hear the Moria theme! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Just get an avatar already dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John 2,032 Posted October 17, 2017 Author Share Posted October 17, 2017 I never quite understood a lot of the criticism TTT receives. Granted, its probably the weakest adaption of the three, but it's still a pretty awe inspiring film. You get the incredible opening battle between Gandalf and the Balrog, the brilliantly acted conversation with Gollum/Sméagol, the Battle of Helm's Deep, Sam's speech in Osgiliath; all moments that are sure to become some of the most iconic scenes in cinema. All three films are going to age into such great classics. Also, this pretty much sums up my feelings on which film in the trilogy is superior; FOTR is the better film, but ROTK is the best film. The former, on a more technical level, is superior to ROTK, but ROTK pulls on your heartstrings and emotions on a far more profound level than probably any movie I have ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Criticism? I love that film! I'd even hesitate to say its the "weakest" of the bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,363 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 3 hours ago, Richard Penna said: The problem here is that I'd say Fellowship for both, but it's unfair to some extent because the stories get inherently more complex, and time was clearly becoming a luxury, as the trilogy went on. Shore's FotR feels more streamlined, whereas by RotK, I can't shake the feeling that he had written certain bits very quickly, and it shows. PJ was juggling so many storylines by RotK, and while he did a fantastic job (compared to some attempts at epics), I don't think it's as good and 'clean' as FotR. I completely agree with every word of this! 2 hours ago, Chen G. said: I think The Two Towers shows the signs of Shore going through the material (composition and production-wise) in a hurry, much more than Return of the King. If one gets this feeling from Return of the King, I think its because of Shore's knack (in that specific film) to pit the themes against one another and create this dense score with all these similar-sounding hybrids. But that's a deliberate choice, rather than a flaw in the scoring process. I completely disagree with all of this! 2 hours ago, Disco Stu said: Just get an avatar already dude. I completely agree with this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 ROTK has a great emotional heft, but it's a messy messy film. Lots of continuity errors, dodgy CGI, and bloat. The Best Picture win was very clearly in recognition of the achievement of the trilogy, not that specific film. Richard Penna 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,363 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 1 minute ago, Disco Stu said: ROTK has a great emotional heft, but it's a messy messy film. Lots of continuity errors, dodgy CGI, and bloat. The Best Picture win was very clearly in recognition of the achievement of the trilogy, not that specific film. I agree with Disco Stu! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post KK 3,307 Posted October 17, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 17, 2017 ROTK is messy, yes, but I'd argue it's unmatched in emotional payoff. One of the grandest finales cinema has seen, and it's hard not to be left in tears after having closed the massive adventure the 3 films put you through. For the way PJ and team were able to stage that level of spectacle, it still remains my favourite of the bunch. Same goes for Shore's score. With that said, FOTR is easily the best made film. But my heart lies with ROTK. Holko, John and Chen G. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 2 hours ago, Disco Stu said: ROTK has a great emotional heft, but it's a messy messy film. Lots of continuity errors, dodgy CGI, and bloat. The Best Picture win was very clearly in recognition of the achievement of the trilogy, not that specific film. You're almost making it sound like its a bad film: it isn't. If Fellowship is better made - its only by a hair. I certainly isn't bloated. Its just long. There are Hollywood epics exceeding its length (see Cleopatra). I don't think that it won all those awards on the behalf of the trilogy as a whole: both Two Towers and especially Fellowship - won their own Oscars. Fellowship even won best cinematography! It deserves all eleven awards, and it would have deserved a best supporting actor nomination (if not a win) for Sean Astin. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 I think the battle at the Black Gate is bad. It's dumb and badly made. Don't get me wrong, I love that movie but the flaws have become clearer to me with time. Anyway, I'm supposed to be boycotting you until you get an avatar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Disco Stu said: ROTK has a great emotional heft, but it's a messy messy film. Lots of continuity errors, dodgy CGI, and bloat. The Best Picture win was very clearly in recognition of the achievement of the trilogy, not that specific film. The bloat is perhaps my biggest criticism for RotK which sadly continued in the Hobbit films. But the film is undeniably potent closure to the whole three film arc. FotR still takes the first place both film and score for me. There is something pitch perfect about the whole film experience for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Films are dramatic narratives. Technical issues in films are only a problem if they plague a large portion of the narrative or if it so bad that it takes the audience out of the film. As such, the only true narrative flaw that I find in the film is that the instigator of Denethor's madness isn't fleshed out. But there are so many characters in the film that it might have been beyond the audience's capacity, and it was better to have just be an arse. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,688 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 2 hours ago, Incanus said: The bloat is perhaps my biggest criticism for RotK which sadly continued in the Hobbit films. But the film is undeniably potent closure to the whole three film arc. FotR still takes the first place both film and score for me. There is something pitch perfect about the whole film experience for me. Yes, I think the main problem is length and bloat. The EE is around 4 hours which is stupendously long. I think PJ could've gotten it down to maybe 2:45/3:00 and kept the basic story. Lose some of the Pelennor Fields battle, lots of the ending and you're getting somewhere. The length also allows us to focus too much on some below average CGI in places, which I'd imagine was largely due to the rush to finish the film in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 I wouldn't change anything about the film from the destruction of the Ring on. I would've scrapped 85% of the Black Gate battle, and yeah a lot could've been trimmed from the Pelennor Fields battle too. It was hardly the cinematic ideal of a screen battle the way Helm's Deep was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 But my God, was so much of Pelennor fucking glorious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 GROND! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Of all the four hour films (of which there are more than you would think), Return of the King is the most deserving of that length. About the only thing I would have streamlined would have been the meeting with Saruman, which goes on a bit too long. In a way it kind of needs that length. The multiple endings are understandable when you consider that this film wraps up the whole trilogy, not just itself: think of the coronation as the finale of Return of the King proper, and the other endings as the conclusion of the trilogy. Now that its a sextet, it's all the more warranted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Have you seen Lawrence of Arabia? It's extraordinary and very much deserving of its 222 minutes. LOTR is a true achievement, but only FOTR comes close to the cinematic elegance of something like Lawrence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Sure I do, I'm an post-graduate of Middle Eastern studies. That a lightweight in terms of length. Look up Cleopatra, Branagah's Hamlet, and a few of the epics regarding the American civil War. I like Return of the King infinitely more. Much more moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,363 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Still no avatar, Chen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Hey, what can I say, I'm better with words than with pictures. I'll conjure something up tommorow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 I value my emotional response to a movie of course, but there are other factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 If a film is a drama - it's objective is to be moving, and any and all production elements are subservient to that end. If the film is a clear-cut action film - it's objective is to be exciting; If it's a comedy - it's objective is to make people laugh, etcetra. Simple. Return of the King is primarily a drama - and on that level it works incredibly well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, Chen G. said: If a film is a drama - it's objective is to be moving I'm not sure I agree 100% with your policework there Lou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 To each his own, I suppose. Its not like the other two films are that much shorter, anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 4,714 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 27 minutes ago, Disco Stu said: I'm not sure I agree 100% with your policework there Lou. Did ya hear the one about the guy who couldn't afford personalized plates, so he went and changed his name to J2L 4685? Disco Stu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 11 minutes ago, Nick1066 said: Did ya hear the one about the guy who couldn't afford personalized plates, so he went and changed his name to J2L 4685? Nick1Ø66 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 4,714 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Aw jeez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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