John Williams: Unpopular Opinions

[Alex 2,833]

Could it be argued that JW has rarely been challenged by any film he's composed? I can't really recall many films which have really thrown him out of his comfort zone and made him produce something really "different". (Maybe Heartbeeps, Schindler's List, POA are exceptions). Of course it depends on a lot more than just him; the director etc.

That's kinda why I was really interested in what he wouldn't have come up with for Ready Player One.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

TLJ will be such a situation, some like to believe.

[Romão 2,274]

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

Could it be argued that JW has rarely been challenged by any film he's composed? I can't really recall many films which have really thrown him out of his comfort zone and made him produce something really "different". (Maybe Heartbeeps, Schindler's List, POA are exceptions). Of course it depends on a lot more than just him; the director etc.

That's kinda why I was really interested in what he wouldn't have come up with for Ready Player One.

 

Sleepers, Images, for sure, as well

[Alex 2,833]

I really hope TLJ will be

[Richard Penna 3,671]

8 hours ago, Marcus said:

And I think the real reason for this, is that Williams simply gives much more thought and effort to his scores than most of his colleagues, probably more than people realize. 

 

There are parts of your views that I can appreciate - your admiration of his technical abilities, for one. (whether it makes interesting music is another argument)

 

But this stuff about 'more thought and effort' going into his scores. No. Utter, utter, total, complete rubbish.

 

11 hours ago, Sally Spectra said:

 

So what John Williams scores do you like?

 

Hmm. Jurassics, Potters mainly. I've never hidden the fact that outside of those two franchises, I've actually never truly been a 'fan'. There was a phase maybe 10 years ago when I had far more JW scores, mainly in response to recommendations from here. But I slowly realised that much of it wasn't clicking.

 

 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

Could it be argued that JW has rarely been challenged by any film he's composed? I can't really recall many films which have really thrown him out of his comfort zone and made him produce something really "different". (Maybe Heartbeeps, Schindler's List, POA are exceptions). Of course it depends on a lot more than just him; the director etc.

That's kinda why I was really interested in what he wouldn't have come up with for Ready Player One.

A.I. is probably his most out-of-comfort-zone-score.

 

8 hours ago, Marcus said:

Here's my unpopular opinion:

 

Williams is in a league entirely of his own among modern media composers.

 

There's simply no one alive this side of the world of concert music who puts out more consistently stellar work. 

 

And I think the real reason for this, is that Williams simply gives much more thought and effort to his scores than most of his colleagues, probably more than people realize. 

 

I've heard lazy, phoned-in offerings from many composers. Never from Williams. 

His work-ethic would make Haydn nod in recognition. 

I couldn't have said it better. There are barely any recent movie composers that reach the level of classical composers like Wagner, Schubert, Beethoven, Chopin or Brahms. Williams can do, as well as Herrman, Goldsmith and Morricone. But whereas Williams is more talented at showing his ability to compose classically structured, lush scores, Goldsmith uses his brilliant composing techniques for modern or totally new creations, meddled with elaborated orchestra music.

[aviazn 273]

Williams has lost his edge as a conductor. When he's off a click track, tempos are uneven and usually tend towards lethargy. It's not unusual, of course, for conductors to mellow with age, but I find it painful to listen to him struggle through performances of The Asteroid Field at 30 bpm slower than the original track. I'd much rather listen to Lockhart or David Newman conduct his work in concert nowadays than Williams himself.

[artguy360 1,843]

Minority Report is kind of all over the place as a score and the thematic material is not very strong. However it has a killer track in New Beginnings. Is that an unpopular opinion?

 

Also, The Falcon and whatever the other cue is called (since they are basically one cue) are too repetitive and not very interesting to listen to. It sounds like The Asteroid Field was used to temp the scene and JW just composed a variation on that music. 

[crumbs 14,301]

4 hours ago, Quintus said:

The only thing I've never really clicked with about Rey's theme is the nasally production of those opening notes of her melody. Always seemed like an odd choice, texturally, to have them so clumped together and muffled in the lower register. Williams is normally big on clarity and clear 'textural definition' in everything he produces, so I'm not sure what happened there.

 

This. It's my only real criticism of the track, how muddy that first appearance of her melody is. It's practically buried in the orchestration (poor mixing?)

 

Would've liked something stronger for the first appearance of her theme, maybe even a soloist (akin to the flute solo in Lunchtime).

[mrbellamy 6,272]

10 hours ago, crumbs said:

Especially when it just blends together with so many random notes during modern-Williams action tracks like Ways of the Force (where it's almost hidden for anyone not familiar with the score).

 

I definitely don't think those first six notes of the theme stand out quite enough on their own like he intended in "Ways of the Force." I still absolutely remember when that final horn blast when she takes down Kylo premiered on 60 Minutes and it immediately stood out to me as a powerful bit of orchestration and a dramatic rising figure, but never occurred to me it was the main theme of the film. It's distinctive enough to work, but I think it does kinda need that full first phrase to really sing out properly as a melodic hook. It's those sixteenth notes that catch my ear most.

 

4 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

TLJ will be such a situation, some like to believe.

 

I think it'll be mostly par for the course, obviously, but possibly a few individual sequences will have some more modern visual flair that could get Williams riding on some cool or unexpected wavelength, particularly texturally or rhythmically. Phat beats!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I prefer the film edit of Duel of the Fates in Return to Tatooine.

 

I also enjoy the film version of On the Conveyor Belt.

 

I also don't think that Entrance of the Monsters would have worked for the arena scene. It was cooler in Revenge of the Sith despite awkward editing, especially when it cuts back to Utapau. I don't know, I just love that part with Obi-Wan in battle.

[DominicCobb 194]

The prequel scores would have been better with little to no choir.

 

The Burning Homestead edit in TFA is a better fit than what Williams wrote for that moment.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Yes, it was perfect parallel to Luke viewing the smoldering skeletal remains of Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru.

[DominicCobb 194]

The fact that it was tracked was distracting, but I find that bit in Ways of the Force completely emotionally underwhelming (whereas the older piece gives the moment the power it needs).

 

There is also something to be said for Rey finally accepting her destiny in that scene (as Luke did in his).

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I find choral elements can be overwhelmingly corny and hamfisted if they're not used properly and sparingly. And the prequels go overboard with them! But they seem to be immensely popular with casual listeners who probably just listen to Duel of the Fates and that's their entire ongoing exposure to SW music.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I thought the choral elements were used well in the prequels. My least favorite is Battle of the Heroes. I'd love to hear that one orchestra only. But when the Emperor raises his arms to thunderous applause, Padme takes notice of liberty dying and Anakin finally murders the unthinkable Nute Gunray, that's just perfect use of a choir and perfect scoring in general.

[publicist 4,643]

I love Battle of the Heroes.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I prefer the film renditions.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

It's not bad.  Gets a little too melodramatic towards the climax.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I prefer those JFK style strings in The Immolation Scene.

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

The Rathtars! is great

[BloodBoal 7,538]

2 hours ago, Muad'Dib said:

The Rathtars! is great

 

HAHAHAHAHA!

[crumbs 14,301]

Yeah, that's less of an unpopular opinion and more of an incorrect opinion...

[Thor 7,465]

I'm surprised so many have issues with his choral writing, which IMO is one of this utmost strenghts. I don't think there's ever been a choral piece by Williams that I've not liked. Perhaps only "America, the Dream Goes On".

 

As for my own 'unpopular opinions' about JW, I don't have that many. I have some minority preferences, like being more interested in the obscure and older stuff (pre-70s) than the big classics these days, but that's hardly an unpopular opinion. Just unusual at JWFAN.

 

I guess an unpopular opinion is one I've said before, and apparently got a lot of flack for (but which I still stand by), i.e. that Williams hasn't been that strong since 2005 as far as film scores are concerned. Most of the adventure/kiddie stuff has been too whimsical and all-over-the-place, while some of the serious dramas have been very run-of-the-mill Americana. There hasn't really been a single album or score I've liked all the way through. WAR HORSE comes closest.

[publicist 4,643]

He still has the drive but has now (in his film scores) regressed to producing loving homages to his own house style since the remarkable renovations in between 1995 and 2005. I blame a dearth of challenging projects (Tintin? Lincoln? War Horse? TFA?)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

RPO will turn things around!

[crumbs 14,301]

Considering only 3 years separated them, the difference between his writing for Revenge of the Sith and Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is pretty... noticeable.

 

But the difference between TFA and The BFG is equally noticeable for different reasons. The underscore in TFA was noticeably thin by comparison, perhaps due to his health.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

My guess is it has more to do with the director. I don't think TFA's writing is thin, but it is unusually lean for a Williams score. With a surprising lack or percussion and woodwinds in the action material. 

 

Sure it's not Goldsmith, but it's far less ornamental in it's orchestrations than what is typical for JW.

 

I actually like that.

[publicist 4,643]

It took him a few years to get there.

[crumbs 14,301]

I think we were all accustomed to the bells and whistles approach from the prequels. Tracks like Chase Through Coruscant are simply breathless.

 

He's certainly streamlined his orchestration. I expected the opposite with the extended writing schedule but maybe he's using the extra time to refine rather than multiply.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

22 minutes ago, publicist said:

It took him a few years to get there.

 

I expect it might be a one time thing.

[Thor 7,465]

48 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Considering only 3 years separated them, the difference between his writing for Revenge of the Sith and Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is pretty... noticeable.

 

Exactly. There seems to be some profound change happening in those 3 years of absence. Not only did the writing change when he returned, but also the amount of activity -- the latter more a deliberate choice than the former, I would guess.

[publicist 4,643]

21 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I expect it might be a one time thing.

 

These streamlinings are part of 'Tintin' and 'KOTCS', too ('The BFG' mostly refrains from busy action music). 

[Holko 9,499]

This seems unpopular enough: Chase Through Coruscant is terrible. It is very fragmented, overly long (not JW's fault), the orchestral parts are lacking (listen to the rerecording for CoS and then say to my face that the AotC version is better), the percussion segments are incredibly uninteresting and unfitting (I sorta understand it for the insectoid Geonosians, but in the middle of a JW chase piece across a futuristic metropolis? - same with the end duel). Overall it has an unfinished vibe for me, like he wrote some music for some parts, didn't have time to orchestrate it properly, then George brought in 3 extra minutes of material at the end and Johnny said "Fuck it, percussion is all you're gonna get for this shit". On the other hand, this weak score fits the movie perfectly in my opinion, because it's the worst movie I've ever sat through and it doesn't deserve better.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Well said!

[Incanus 5,713]

31 minutes ago, Holko said:

This seems unpopular enough: Chase Through Coruscant is terrible. It is very fragmented, overly long (not JW's fault), the orchestral parts are lacking (listen to the rerecording for CoS and then say to my face that the AotC version is better), the percussion segments are incredibly uninteresting and unfitting (I sorta understand it for the insectoid Geonosians, but in the middle of a JW chase piece across a futuristic metropolis? - same with the end duel). Overall it has an unfinished vibe for me, like he wrote some music for some parts, didn't have time to orchestrate it properly, then George brought in 3 extra minutes of material at the end and Johnny said "Fuck it, percussion is all you're gonna get for this shit". On the other hand, this weak score fits the movie perfectly in my opinion, because it's the worst movie I've ever sat through and it doesn't deserve better.

Actually it was Lucas' wish to have some slightly Far Eastern quality for the sequence perhaps inspired by something like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, hence the percussion driven piece. Same probably goes for the final duel material between Anakin, Obi Wan and Dooku.

[Richard Penna 3,671]

Yoda and the Younglings is a particular example of choral writing that seems to go nowhere to me.

 

There are plenty of moments in his action music here and there (start of Clash of the Cranes, parts of The Werewolf Scene) where the orchestration is so all over the place that I wonder what on earth he's trying to do with it. I find Elfman to be better at these moments sometimes.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Judging by this thread, you'd think Williams was as bad as Cappuccino!

[Richard Penna 3,671]

The truth will out!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crumbs 14,301]

24 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

There are plenty of moments in his action music here and there (start of Clash of the Cranes, parts of The Werewolf Scene) where the orchestration is so all over the place that I wonder what on earth he's trying to do with it.

 

I can't stand his insistence on pushing this sound. It's all over the Rathtars track as well; just meandering, percussive noise.

 

The worst offender is the start of Clash of the Cranes. Irritating, aimless noise.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

48 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

I can't stand his insistence on pushing this sound. It's all over the Rathtars track as well; just meandering, percussive noise.

 

The worst offender is the start of Clash of the Cranes. Irritating, aimless noise.

 

This is incorrect

[publicist 4,643]

Musically you would describe it as dissonant agitatos. It's not necessarily meant to sound pleasant - though listening to it requires a certain...mood, i might say.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

This is a great thread!!

 

For the whiners.

 

Of course John is not perfect but most of the time brilliant. If you don't get something, it must be shit.

Sometimes the problem seems to be in the mind of a JWfan.

[crumbs 14,301]

16 minutes ago, publicist said:

Musically you would describe it as dissonant agitatos. It's not necessarily meant to sound pleasant - though listening to it requires a certain...mood, i might say.

 

I'm no musical scholar, and John Williams is a genius, so I'm sure there's a musical explanation for why he wrote the opening of that track.

 

All I'm saying is, to my unlearned ears, it's indecipherable noise. I've often enjoyed JW's dissonant music but the haphazard crashes of percussion, brass and strings are too schizophrenic for my ears to decipher any musical idiom.

 

Maybe in 10 years I'll look back on this opinion and shake my head at the ignorance!

[publicist 4,643]

Or not. It's not like anyone is required to love every random dissonant cue out there. 

[Quintus 5,399]

I never particularly got into Temple of Doom outside of Parade of the Slave Children. It's a score I ignored as an album of music.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Loert 2,510]

40 minutes ago, crumbs said:

I'm no musical scholar, and John Williams is a genius, so I'm sure there's a musical explanation for why he wrote the opening of that track.

 

Maybe because it sounds like cranes.......clashing?

[Quintus 5,399]

46 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

No love for Anything Goes? You sad fucker.

 

I love that, it's even on my car USB playlist. Great, great arrangement by Williams.