John Powell's SOLO: A STAR WARS STORY (2018) - Deluxe Edition 2020 / Intrada 2-CD edition October 31, 2023

[Pieter Boelen 740]

On 12/13/2019 at 9:16 PM, ocelot said:

It's not that Williams has any opinion or cares about Gia's own work, he hated what he did to HIS themes. Does not want him anywhere near his themes again, is what I heard from a few people in LA, and allegedly he said that to Kennedy. 

Too bad; I would've been curious to hear what Gia would have come up with given a second chance.

Some constructive feedback from Williams and/or a more comfortable time schedule could make all the difference in the world.

 

But to be fair... they ARE Williams' themes. And he's most certainly earned the right to have his opinion.

I not only greatly admire the man's music, but I greatly admire the man himself too.

He's a true inspiration to me.

 

Could this be why Williams himself was so heavily involved in Solo?

And why The Mandalorian is steering clear of Williams' themes altogether for now?

[Edmilson 7,393]

45 minutes ago, Pieter Boelen said:

Could this be why Williams himself was so heavily involved in Solo?

 

 

Now that you said it... It does makes sense. Williams seemed to get more involved with the franchise AFTER Rogue One, not only scoring Episodes VIII and IX (which he would probably have done anyway), but also helping Powell on Solo and writing the theme for Galaxy's Edge. Apparently, he got more protective of the franchise - and also it is still not clear how involved he was with Solo.

 

48 minutes ago, Pieter Boelen said:

And why The Mandalorian is steering clear of Williams' themes altogether for now?

 

There has been Star Wars music for other media (mostly TV) not composed by Williams being written for decades. I mean, he never seemed to care to what Kiner did to his themes on Clone Wars and Rebels, or Gordy on the videogames - or, at least, getting as pissed with it as he got with Gia. 

 

I don't think he cares about Star Wars music for TV shows or videogames, but Rogue One was the first big budget SW blockbuster that he DIDN'T scored, so this probably might have contributed to his reaction.

 

I feel bad for Gia, though. He is clearly a fan of Williams, and like it or not the RO score, he did the best he could under the impossible conditions he was put under. 

[crocodile 7,984]

If he disliked RO this much I wonder what he thinks of Jurassic World 2 released year and a half after that. But then, that's a different studio and these two scores make very few references to the old themes.

 

Karol

[HunterTech 987]

I'm more curious as to what he thought of John Ottman's Superman Returns, considering it would've been way before the internet being what it is now, so the information available is sparse. The most I got was that he was invited to attend a recording session, but wasn't able to.

[BTR1701 59]

13 hours ago, ocelot said:

Plus Williams is notorious to be very difficult about his own music to the point of being overly precious, he's not as "nice" as people make him out to be when it comes to his own stuff. Many have said that in the past which is why in most sequels you hear his music as is when it is possible, It is hardly every re-orchestrated. If it is, he would prefer to be involved and make sure it puts his in the best light. The Vader part of RO in the end was dreadful musically, I would not be surprised if that is what some of the complaint was about, but that is completely my own thought. I did not hear what parts he did not like, just that he had gone to Kennedy about it.

 

Williams' SUPERMAN themes were recently used in the CW's Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover event (as well as Elfman's BATMAN theme). And they weren't orchestrated the way the were in the films. I doubt Williams was involved with scoring a CW show, either.

[Romão 2,274]

8 hours ago, Tydirium said:

The Force theme at 0:40 of "Trust Goes Both Ways" has always struck me as especially egregious. Especially 0:48-0:49... Ugh. I wouldn't be surprised if Williams wasn't a fan either.

 

It is horrendous. It sounds like the musicians fumbled their notes

[Arpy 4,145]

4 hours ago, crocodile said:

If he disliked RO this much I wonder what he thinks of Jurassic World 2 released year and a half after that. But then, that's a different studio and these two scores make very few references to the old themes.

 

Karol

It's why I think the claims against Gia made by JW are exaggerated. I can understand Williams being protective of his own material, but this is a stretch to try and rationalize how other composers have used his music before and after RO.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

I hope not to see confirmation of Williams as a drama queen/diva ever or it will be a great letdown for me. We all know famous people are like that and have big egos, but him being always so polite and nice, it would make him the biggest hypocrite, which is worse than outright being like that in the open...

[Nick Parker 3,040]

57 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

I hope not to see confirmation of Williams as a drama queen/diva ever or it will be a great letdown for me. We all know famous people are like that and have big egos, but him being always so polite and nice, it would make him the biggest hypocrite, which is worse than outright being like that in the open...

 

Would it really be so rude if Williams, as an artist with over 60 years of refining his art, with collaborations ranking with some of the most well-regarded musicians of their time, if not all time, was critical about how someone used his work? It's not like he called Giacchino a raggedy-ass cocksucker or said he should strangle himself with a velvet purple bowtie, Williams just didn't like how his work--which he obviously cares very much about--was handled.

 

To not allow Williams to have an opinion is stripping him of his humanity. Why can he not have opinions, especially on the treatment of his own efforts?

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

Yeah!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

6 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

To not allow Williams to have an opinion is stripping him of his humanity. Why can he not have opinions, especially on the treatment of his own efforts?

 

This! And thank you!

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

7 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

It's not like he called Giacchino a raggedy-ass cocksucker or said he should strangle himself with a velvet purple bowtie

 

I'd respect JW even more if he did this.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

I'd respect JW even more if he did this.

 

It would be the single greatest thing that would have ever happened if he did that!

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

In reality, JW probably doesn't remember his name.

[Richard Penna 3,672]

21 hours ago, Tydirium said:

The Force theme at 0:40 of "Trust Goes Both Ways" has always struck me as especially egregious. Especially 0:48-0:49... Ugh. I wouldn't be surprised if Williams wasn't a fan either.

 

Woah, that statement is an acquired taste. It sort of works once you know what's going to happen, but the first time you hear it, it does sound wrong.

 

I can easily imagine JW hearing that and taking issue.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

15 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

I'd respect JW even more if he did this.

 

13 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

It would be the single greatest thing that would have ever happened if he did that!

 

Giacchino: Hey John, thanks for all the

classic themes. They were so simple and easy to use, it allowed me to write the score in like a month. So why does it take you a year to do the same thing? hahaha

 

Williams:

 

 

 

 

 

[Tydirium 1,166]

56 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Woah, that statement is an acquired taste. It sort of works once you know what's going to happen, but the first time you hear it, it does sound wrong.

 

I can easily imagine JW hearing that and taking issue.

 

Yep. It's not quite as jarring to me nowadays as I know to expect it, but when you really stop and think about it... 

[Ollie 1,059]

 

 

 

Most successful people are and can be rude, mean, demanding, jerks or whatnot behind the scenes. That’s how they got to be successful more than likely.

 

 

Given all the fuss I find it hard to believe Williams was happy with the mishmash of his music in Solo for the beginning of the Kessel run sequence. 

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

25 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

 

Yep. It's not quite as jarring to me nowadays as I know to expect it, but when you really stop and think about it... 

I checked it...and really...is it that better than aotc finale to the end credits segue?

 

By the way we are forgetting that Williams'  loved Bill Ross was involved in orchestrating this 'shit'. And Williams didn't chastise him ...

[Ollie 1,059]

This also makes me wonder if there was more to Desplat’s departure, other than the reshoots pushing his schedule back.

[Giftheck 916]

I would think it was the Force Theme's use in Trust Goes Both Ways (as suggested above) and the Binary Sunset usage in Hope that Williams would have taken issue with specifically. The former just sounds so... wrong in its timing. The latter is far too abrupt in its flow to the ascending material that closes out the cue, and it doesn't have a proper segue to the end credits, which just makes it all the more jarring. I like the score, but I was honestly thinking 'seriously? Sounds like something was cut from this cue' when it came to Hope.

 

Vader's theme usage in Krennic's Aspirations is one place I can think of where Williams' themes sounded 'correct', and there were some good usages of the Force theme elsewhere. Just not in those two particular pieces.

[1977 1,743]

9 minutes ago, Gistech said:

Vader's theme usage in Krennic's Aspirations is one place I can think of where Williams' themes sounded 'correct'

 

I love that entire cue, the use of The Imperial March and the Imperial motif from ANH together is really effective tied to the visuals.

 

I wonder if KK ever approached JW to score Rogue One.

[Tydirium 1,166]

11 minutes ago, Gistech said:

and the Binary Sunset usage in Hope

 

Ew. Had forgotten about that one; you're right.

 

11 minutes ago, Gistech said:

Vader's theme usage in Krennic's Aspirations is one place I can think of where Williams' themes sounded 'correct', and there were some good usages of the Force theme elsewhere. Just not in those two particular pieces.

 

Yeah, there's really nothing offensive about the classic themes in "Vader's Aspirations". Part of me wonders what sort of music we would have gotten for Vader's castle if Williams scored it, though. Maybe a reference to "Enter, Lord Vader" or something.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Who knows maybe he hated that giacchino used the old imperial motif...which he had buried ages ago...

[Giftheck 916]

1 minute ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Who knows maybe he hated that giacchino used the old imperial motif...which he had buried ages ago...

 

... but he's used it since.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Where?

[Ollie 1,059]

Powel used it in Solo.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

Are we talking about the old Imperial "fanfare" (daa dun dun daaaaa!) or the "stormtrooper" motif? Williams quoted the former in The Last Jedi for the ironing scene, but hasn't quoted the latter. Giacchino quoted both in Rogue One. Powell quoted both in Solo.

 

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

I mean the stormtrooper motif

[Ollie 1,059]

Train Heist sequence.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

 

[Giftheck 916]

2 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

I mean the stormtrooper motif

 

My mistake, I assumed you meant the Death Star motif.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Yes Powell used the theme too. Maybe he won't score other SW film in his life either :p

[ocelot 508]

7 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

I hope not to see confirmation of Williams as a drama queen/diva ever or it will be a great letdown for me. We all know famous people are like that and have big egos, but him being always so polite and nice, it would make him the biggest hypocrite, which is worse than outright being like that in the open...

Why would that be him being a Diva? It's his work. He wouldn't want it represented in a way he does not want it to be. Every artist has that right. 

 

22 hours ago, crocodile said:

If he disliked RO this much I wonder what he thinks of Jurassic World 2 released year and a half after that. But then, that's a different studio and these two scores make very few references to the old themes.

 

Karol

Different Studio and most stuff in there is pretty much quoted as is. Not put under different chords that are actual re-orchestrations. Plus he might not have the clout he does with his Star Wars films to say too much. Either way, it's not really different when his stuff comes in. He has no problems with his themes being there, just how they are treated and reimagined. 

 

I have never heard of him having any issue with Powell in Solo though.

 

In the end the way Williams writes, there is a rhythm in his themes and they make sense for a reason. There is a cadence that flows. Do too much with it and it loses it's meaning, cut it off too soon and you lose the rhythm. It would be like trying to say a sentence but you leave out words. Also he orchestrates and uses harmonic language that is from the Classical world not Film world or Pop world, so he would probably have issue with that (my assumptions of why here, nothing I have heard, just trying to figure out what it might be). It's not that I do not like Gia, I actually love him in things like Ratatouille and The Incredibles. But when it comes to pure orchestral, I honestly do not think his harmonic language is there. Not in the way a classical composer would write. He hardly modulates. I do not know the RO score well because I don't like it and have not sat down to listen to it all that much after trying to initially but there is a track, it sounds like what Williams would write in one of those marches like the Resistance March. If you notice with Williams when he writes something like that, just like a natural composer he knows when to modulate. Either going to the 5 or just going up a step. He changes the orchestration. Different groups of instruments take the theme, whilst others then take on different counter parts or chords, some then stay silent etc etc. With Gia, he stays on the same tonality pretty much the whole track.... What? You've bored the orchestra playing your music and bored me to death..... Sorry, again, I love him in his other more jazz, big band, alternative scores and he MODULATES with those. Also in Jurassic World, there is a track where the kids are in that round bubble vehicle. He has woodwinds bubbling up with these scales that have nothing to do with the tonality of the piece. I'm like, did you just choose random notes or is this just going over my head, because I know what it "should" be there, but there is no rhyme or reason in what I am hearing. Again, music is subjective and someone else might love that randomness, but to me, it makes no sense classically or musically. These are just a couple of examples off my head.

 

[Arpy 4,145]

8 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

 

 

To not allow Williams to have an opinion is stripping him of his humanity. Why can he not have opinions, especially on the treatment of his own efforts?

I don't think anyone believes Williams isn't allowed to have an opinion or that @Luke Skywalker's comment was anything other than good-intentioned, the problem is we're talking about rumours and hearsay and not only speaking on behalf of Williams, but on behalf of baseless chit-chat - which is far worse. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

20 minutes ago, Arpy said:

I don't think anyone believes Williams isn't allowed to have an opinion or that @Luke Skywalker's comment was anything other than good-intentioned, the problem is we're talking about rumours and hearsay and not only speaking on behalf of Williams, but on behalf of baseless chit-chat - which is far worse. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I easily grant that this stuff is unverified, but I see some people acting as if Williams vocally expressing displeasure with something is some dark secret truth about the man, and is tantamount to pulling the curtain back to reveal someone other than the polite gentleman we see in interviews and countless anecdotes. 

[Pieter Boelen 740]

4 hours ago, ocelot said:

Why would that be him being a Diva? It's his work. He wouldn't want it represented in a way he does not want it to be. Every artist has that right. 

If you want it done right in your own way, the only way to accomplish that is by doing it yourself.

Outsourcing is always going to result in something different.

 

Sometimes for the worse.

Sometimes for the better.

Sometimes for the worse at first but after encouragement for the unbelievable.

 

Even that "unbelievable" could be better or worse.

There's just no telling until after it has happened.

[publicist 4,643]

If course there is. Just hire real composers and you will get better music.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

So don Davis did some alterations in Jurassic park III....and know what, he doesn't work at Hollywood anymore....

 

I suppose that trained musicians like ocelot or Williams hear music in a different level, so I understand the discrepancy in opinions.

[ocelot 508]

2 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

So don Davis did some alterations in Jurassic park III....and know what, he doesn't work at Hollywood anymore....

 

I suppose that trained musicians like ocelot or Williams hear music in a different level, so I understand the discrepancy in opinions.

BTW, Jurassic Park 3 isn't a "rumor" he hated what happened with the treatment of his theme in that. Although I would not imagine that is why Don Davis is not working in the industry. This was ages ago but there was, again I will say allegedly, a letter about why he was not called to help out when it came to his theme/s so it/they were not butchered. 

 

It even goes beyond what chord you are using. Lets say I took one of Williams themes and used the right chords. But, my leading tone is then the wrong one when orchestrating and arranging, and I did not space the strings out classically enough but did a more simplified version of it, that could get me fired or talked to because even though for most people, it is the right chords, it is not musical orchestrally...... It goes way deeper..... There is a way of writing for an orchestra that is more organic (when it comes to tonal music) it goes out the window when you do atonal work, but tonal music has to work based on music theory and naturally going from chord to chord based on classical writing.

 

Again he is notorious in the industry as being someone who is very protective over what he writes. Some people call that a Diva, I do not. I see that as someone who wants to keep his work unadulterated and not put out in such a way that does not represent him.... Although part of me laughs at the notion that each time a trailer comes out with his music done in a pop and electronic way, he screams at the tv ROFL....

 

5 hours ago, Pieter Boelen said:

If you want it done right in your own way, the only way to accomplish that is by doing it yourself.

Outsourcing is always going to result in something different.

 

 

Which is why he takes time and writes everything himself and orchestrates pretty much everything. As Conrad Pop said and I quote, and this was to me at lunch at "La Conversation" on Doheney, which unfortunately has shut down this year, so it is not alleged, "with Williams I am a glorified copyist. The orchestrations are all there on the page already."

9 hours ago, Arpy said:

I don't think anyone believes Williams isn't allowed to have an opinion or that @Luke Skywalker's comment was anything other than good-intentioned, the problem is we're talking about rumours and hearsay and not only speaking on behalf of Williams, but on behalf of baseless chit-chat - which is far worse. 

 

Yeah but again, no one is saying anything that is bad though. Not really, just that Williams does not like others touching his work, this was just the latest example of his displeasure. 

17 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

In reality, JW probably doesn't remember his name.

Hi I'm Vaughan Williams, lol

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

Well, I'm Elgar.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

I didn't knew williams didn't like jpiii, I was making a joke, I believe Davis working in classical now is a personal choice....

 

 

[Arpy 4,145]

I don't know why Lucasfilm/Disney haven't hired you @ocelot clearly, you know exactly what to do and what to write. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Actually, @ocelot is an outstanding composer. You should check out his work.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

He's a gentleman and a scholar.

[Arpy 4,145]

1 minute ago, Stefancos said:

Actually, @ocelot is an outstanding composer. You should check out his work.

It wasn't a sleight against dear ocelot's skill, but a reaction to the type of comments which form the cesspool of YouTube comments and Twitter, people who think they know what's best or could do better.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Quite goodlooking too, in real life.

[publicist 4,643]

 

Though the powers that be seem to prefer the Rapunzel look.

[crumbs 14,301]

I do find it interesting that LLL never pursued a JP3 expansion, even 4 years after the JP/TLW set... given their close ties to Williams and his management.

[MedigoScan 324]

Well there was a bootleg/FYC release anyway.

A full release likely wouldnt have the the film edits anyway (with a lot of the drums and brass removed, which frankly makes it sound better)