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JW's Worst OST Decisions


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8 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

But I think you are too quick to criticize album producers for thinking they don't have your approach in mind. Just because a release is long, doesn't mean it hasn't been selected with quality in mind - it's surely related to how much music there was to begin with.

 

Well, I've never denied that there's a lot of quality thinking in terms of sound restoration, liner notes etc. My criticism of album producers who favour C&C is more that there is no thought to selection and sequencing. It is, after all, just a matter of transferring all of the music from the film and putting them in the order of the movie. It's a purely 'technical' transferrence (or "archeological"), and I prefer the more artistic re-conceptualization of the material.

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34 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

see why he does it - he imagines listeners sitting down with the CD and going through a musical journey, and a thematic repeat is a way to end that.

 

But the preservationist, or someone wanting to hear the music from the film, sees it as a wasted opportunity.

 

It seems like the total antithesis to Williams' approach to thematic development when writing a score proper.

 

He's very careful to develop themes gradually as the score moves along, rather than being too overt at the beginning. Yet on his soundtracks he regularly sticks his concert suites, the fully fleshed out rendition of his main theme, as track 1!

 

An approach like Rey's Theme in TFA's OST makes much more sense (barring the bizarre placement of her concert suite), as it develops across the album in mostly chronological order and its most developed, mature appearance is in the end credits. This seems to be a new approach from Williams, hopefully it carries through on TLJ.

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4 minutes ago, crumbs said:

He's very careful to develop themes gradually as the score moves along, rather than being too overt at the beginning. Yet on his soundtracks he regularly sticks his concert suites, the fully fleshed out rendition of his main theme, as track 1!

 

I love it when he does that. It's like an overture!

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1 minute ago, Thor said:

 

I love it when he does that. It's like an overture!

 

Yes, clearly that's his intention but on his longer scores it's a total waste of disc space. Prisoner of Azkaban is brimming with unreleased versions of Window to the Past and Double Trouble (the film's two primary new themes), yet the OST has 8 minutes of recycled excerpts from earlier tracks rather than any development of either new theme. It's pretty poor musical storytelling, which is the point of Williams' album assemblies, is it not?

 

There was zero benefit to be had by recycling random snippets of unrelated, isolated cues with no bearing on the overall musical story being told in Williams' complete score.

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Does Window to the Past even appear in the film?

 

Both PoA and The Terminal are, in different ways, examples of poor musical storytelling. Taken standalone, they're fine, but they collapse as soon as you relate them to the film.

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6 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Does Window to the Past even appear in the film?

 

Only about one minute of this track is even in the film, for the scene where Harry walks through the woods with Lupin. The rest is unused, presumably a concert arrangement.

 

Such a beautiful theme left wanting by poor representation on album. It's in, what, 3 tracks? Yet it's the thematic heartbeat of the film that carries Harry through his journey from the earliest scenes.

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The OST track "Window To The Past" is the theme's rendition from the End Credits (literally the exact same recording/take) with a new intro/ending, like how he created "Theme from Jurassic Park" for that OST.

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2 hours ago, Thor said:

 

Well, I've never denied that there's a lot of quality thinking in terms of sound restoration, liner notes etc. My criticism of album producers who favour C&C is more that there is no thought to selection and sequencing. It is, after all, just a matter of transferring all of the music from the film and putting them in the order of the movie. It's a purely 'technical' transferrence (or "archeological"), and I prefer the more artistic re-conceptualization of the material.

I reckon you do have a point there.

Me, I prefer mostly complete and chronological, BUT allowing for some artistic improvements here and there.

In other words: stick short tracks in spots where they fit musically and do the same with alternate inserts.

Swap the order of tracks around like in Hook-napped or No Man's Land wherever that makes musical sense.

But don't go all the way to throw the entire thematic development from a chronological presentation out of whack.

Then you end up with an expanded and mostly chronological album that isn't 100% C&C, but instead maintains a more directly listenable presentation.

Does that make any sense?

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38 minutes ago, Muad'Dib said:

Irina's Theme as well, no? In the sense that isn't a proper concert suite, more a cut and paste of differentes parts of the score where that theme is featured.

 

Correct!

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2 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

But it destroys all thematic development he's going for!

 

Well, I disagree. I think it's a great way to open an album, and there's usually plenty of thematic development afterwards. What I like about Williams' arrangement is how he inserts these setpieces or standalone tracks with regular intervals throughout an album (although they aren't necessarily in the film's order), that keeps the interest going. Like tentpoles. Great ebb and flow.

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3 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

I see why he does it - he imagines listeners sitting down with the CD and going through a musical journey, and a thematic repeat is a way to end that.

I'm inclined to support that. IF the end suite is unique from what came before.

The Force Awakens got it right. Suite only had short and unique repetitions, leading to no redundant material at all.

Suits me just fine. Editorially created repeats are a different story altogether. Write a proper suite, you lazy composer!!! ;)

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5 hours ago, Thor said:

It's called a preference. And I'd call it a wider and more dynamic one than those who MUST have all of the music, exactly as it is in the movie.

Is it really more dynamic to MUSTN'T have any more music than provided on the OST? I mean let's get back to the Lost World example: 1. The expansion contains major cues that add so much to the whole score that you would be highly surprised. 2. It's definitely a better listening experience than the OST and it's approved by John Williams.

So if you have no problem with the lenght why do you refuse to consider buying this score?

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9 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

So if you have no problem with the lenght why do you refuse to consider buying this score?

 

Because it is complete & chronological. I believe it is my right to NOT buy things that are created in a way that doesn't appeal to me. ;)

 

Love the original THE LOST WORLD album. My only issue with it is the stupid digipak packaging.

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7 minutes ago, Thor said:

Because it is complete & chronological.

Isn't that somehow a confession that you have not really a reason like completists have no proper reason to buy a release that just contains about 10 seconds more?

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But @Thor isn't the artistry evident in the score itself, presented in C&C? Themes develop with the narrative etc. Not presenting concert suites in place of actual score cues. The artistry is Williams entire score from start to finish and it's frustrating that we get neutered albums because people think it might be too long. 

 

Album vs. C&C for me is rather like viewing a cropped version of a painting which contains enough detail to suggest the painting at large versus viewing the full version uninhibited. The framing of the score completely changes the narrative.

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At the same time I can see the merits and artistry in Williams' album presentations, but the artistry I think is evident in the score as written/edited to the picture first, right? The entire reason for the score's existence. Wouldn't it seem more prudent an observation that to want a specially designed listening experience (the album format) is more rigid in a way? Isn't half the reason the album presentation exists is a constraint to begin with, licensing fees, one disc versus three etc.? 

 

Score as intended versus score as is, is always a tricky situation as the score edited in the final locked version of the film is what we hear. Alternates and different takes and the narrative framing in an album are all secondary to the final picture, important in their own right, but not the final vision that is presented theatrically.

 

There's no denying The Lost World is a more powerful, full-blooded presentation as a whole than the album experience because its focus is linear and not taking narrative leaps. Themes can be engaged with in a natural way they arise in the narrative of the score.

 

My argument is and has always been that the art is the score, and a listening experience presented in full (of which I can of course modify as with any other album) represents the detail and care, or mishaps and rushing that has gone into the creative process of crafting it.

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

No offense to the general public, but f*ck 'em!

 

Of course he's also thinking like a business man. He wants his music to be accessible by a wider variety of people.

 

For example, if I was to introduce a non-film music person to scores, I'd show them the E.T. OST, not any of the expanded versions.

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If I had to introduce non film music fans to the music, I don't think they could get past just the main theme alone. The Superman March, Welcome to Jurassic Park, Hedwig's Theme and the Flying Theme from E.T. are all examples of music I've shown to non film music fans and the rest of the score usually puts them off. The responses I've got from those people usually is a variation on "It's noise". Sad, but I don't enjoy some other genres of music so to each their own... 

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29 minutes ago, Arpy said:

If I had to introduce non film music fans to the music, I don't think they could get past just the main theme alone. The Superman March, Welcome to Jurassic Park, Hedwig's Theme and the Flying Theme from E.T. are all examples of music I've shown to non film music fans and the rest of the score usually puts them off. The responses I've got from those people usually is a variation on "It's noise". Sad, but I don't enjoy some other genres of music so to each their own... 

 

I mean someone who has expressed a passing interest in film music but has no idea where to start.

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8 hours ago, Arpy said:

But @Thor isn't the artistry evident in the score itself, presented in C&C?

 

In the musical compositions themselves, yes, and undoubtedly on a structural level in the film itself. But album is not film. And there is no artistry in the adapation/re-structuring from film to album when you present it C&C. It's just a technical process. Which doesn't necessarily make it more or less worth, but something that yields a different end result. The end result is more of an archeological artifact ("preserving" the material). Alas, that's not why I'm into soundtrack listening.

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Honestly though, the fans of film music are the ones who actually buy these sets and listen to them. The "general public" will either not care about the score at all, or will just buy one or two of the main themes on iTunes or some shit. Hell, most of the casual fans I see on Facebook and YouTube are the ones constantly asking for expanded sets.

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12 hours ago, Sally Spectra said:

Williams doesn't make albums for pedantic whackjobs like us. He makes them for the general public.

 

I've always wondered: does JW, exclusively, choose the music that goes on an OST, and how it's presented, or are "other agents" involved?

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14 minutes ago, Richard said:

 

I've always wondered: does JW, exclusively, choose the music that goes on an OST, and how it's presented, or are "other agents" involved?

 

So there are studio suits who whisper to him "edit out a lot of the good music, which will create demand for it and we'll release it in 20 years"?

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C&C is not better by default. OST presentations serve their purpose.

 

I think 'The Lost World' is a good example. I was unfamiliar with the TLW OST, but of course I purchased the LLL none the less. I found it hard to grasp. It wasn't until I started focusing on the OST tracks, listening to them in the OST order, that it started making sense to me.

 

Even though I've been a hardcore soundtrack fan for 20+ years, I can still understand that "noise" argument a couple of posts ago. To me, more - or C&C - doesn't equal better.

 

Preferences differ, people.

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But it all depends on how that music is presented. I'd rather have a 40 minute release of a score that's gripping from start to finish than a 110 minute release that of that same score that feels like it's droning on forever.

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Agreed.

 

If given a choice I guess most would choose a C&C over an OST because of FOMA.

 

And I can agree that the C&C releases always include some litttle gem that is left out of the OST... But I think it's interesting how I almost always enjoy the OST presentation more as a whole.

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The Abyss is a prime example of this. The OST was already a fairly difficult listen until the more engaging music kicks in at the end. But the C&C version is one of the hardest pills I've ever swallowed as a film score listener. The final 15 or so minutes are great, but I've never touched the first disc since first hearing it.

 

And oddly all I've heard is praise for how much of a "relevation" it is. It's not! It's the same atmospheric droning, just more of it. And I'm not talking about Zimmer drones, who often has something relatively interesting to do with them, Silvestri's drones are coma-inducing on their own. It's best served in the film where it belongs.

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Just because a score is released C&C doesn't mean you must listen to it that way.

 

If a 110 minute score has droning parts... don't listen to those parts.

 

There are definitely some OSTs that I prefer over their expanded or C&C counterparts.  And vice versa.  I'm not married to either one.

 

Raiders of the Lost Ark OST works better to me than the expansions that we've gotten. When I listen to Raiders I listen to a very OST-like program with additional tracks. Airplane Fight and Desert Chase must always be listened to back to back. The OST doesn't provide for that but Airplane Fight has become an essential pairing with Desert Chase. There is a tension to AF that pays off in DC.

 

I also understand why AF wasn't on the OST, not enough space on a single LP and the score as a whole definitely didn't warrant a double LP.  The ideal listening experience is somewhere between the two.

 

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39 minutes ago, MrScratch said:

If a 110 minute score has droning parts... don't listen to those parts.

 

Hitting the skip button repeatedly doesn't say much for the score. I tend to just like putting the CD in the player, hit the play button and never touch it until the end.

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47 minutes ago, MrScratch said:

I also understand why AF wasn't on the OST, not enough space on a single LP and the score as a whole definitely didn't warrant a double LP.  The ideal listening experience is somewhere between the two.

 

The would have been space for at least another 15 minutes.

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50 minutes ago, Sally Spectra said:

 

Hitting the skip button repeatedly doesn't say much for the score. I tend to just like putting the CD in the player, hit the play button and never touch it until the end.

Do people, like, still use CD players? Isn't that like VCR technology now?

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3 hours ago, Sally Spectra said:

 

Hitting the skip button repeatedly doesn't say much for the score. I tend to just like putting the CD in the player, hit the play button and never touch it until the end.

 

Same here. Goes for my playing in iTunes too! I hate that kind of "piecemeal" approach to soundtracks (skipping tracks, playing single tracks over again etc.), which really goes against the whole 'concept' idea. As if it was some kind of compilation of 80s hit songs or whatever. To me, It's ONE musical experience, played from start to finish -- unless other external factors disturb me midway.

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2 hours ago, Thor said:

I hate that kind of "piecemeal" approach to soundtracks (skipping tracks, playing single tracks over again etc.), which really goes against the whole 'concept' idea.

 

Right, but if somebody has done this for you, that suddenly becomes the only acceptable way to listen to it.

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