Have we reached peak Hans Zimmer?

[A24 4,331]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

 

That's one of the main problems I have with the socalled "Zimmer bashing". People seem to conflate the fact that he's influential and has many "copycats" with the man's own music. In reality, of course, Zimmer himself continually tries to renew himself, and challenge whatever sound he made trendy. Whenever someone is doing Zimmer á la INCEPTION, for example, the man himself has long since moved on to other things.

 

I hope this is especially true for BR 2049, Thor, because the last thing that universe needs is the sound of countless other movies.

[Thor 7,493]

26 minutes ago, James said:

He is very guilty. Your main plagiarists are protected and encouraged by HIM. 

Its simple.

End of the Zimmer company.

End of the Zimmer period

 

Your post is tongue-in-cheek, but still.

 

If Zimmer had just done the same thing over and over again, then I would have understood such a criticism. But he's not. So his own music should not really be the target of such a criticism. It should just be evaluated on an individual basis, IMO, like any other composer.

 

While it's true that he "protects" a lot of the composers he gets to Remote Control or otherwise mentors, and that they often compose music that sounds like him (or previous versions of him), we also have to remember that this protection eventually allows for the composers to come into their own; with their own aesthetic that is less reliant on the "Zimmer sound". People like John Powell have come out of this. And now someone like Atli Örvarsson is doing his own indie Icelandic films that is a very different ball game altogether.

[Holko 9,519]

Who's the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

To act like Zimmer is not complicit in the spread of his sound through copycats is to be willfully ignorant.  That is how his company stays in business.  Filmmakers want Zimmer and he either says no or they can't afford him so they get an RCP lackey.

 

I'm not saying he's 100% responsible but he's not an innocent.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Pretty sure Zimmer doesn’t get paid when someone else scores a film, so there’s no incentive other than to be a good pal at the end of the day. 

 

Producers/Directors want him to score their film, but when he can’t he gives them an alternative. No different than John Williams recommending Newman or Silvestri. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Remote Control Productions is a business of which he is co-owner.  He makes money when other composers score a film as part of RCP.  I of course am not privy to contract specifics, but presumably if a production is hiring a composer to produce a score through RCP, then obviously RCP as a company makes money in that deal.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

It’s a recording studio. He makes money if scores are recorded there. He’s not pimping out composers for kickback. 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

21 hours ago, Alexcremers said:

Yes, John Williams did not duplicate himself, but other composers were being asked if they could provide the JW sound.

It's never the artist's fault. He is punished for being successful, because some uncreative and cowardly producers want everyone else to copy him, until no one is able any more to listen to his music without puking.

A good reason not to be a film composer nowadays.

[publicist 4,643]

2 hours ago, Koray Savas said:

It’s a recording studio. He makes money if scores are recorded there. He’s not pimping out composers for kickback. 

 

He's a full service agency. He smooches, romances and self-promotes himself and his team into as many gigs as possible. It's the american way, for sure, only that it regretfully means that a lot of filmmakers get what they shouldn't have (the few premium cases where Zimmer involves himself excepted).

[A24 4,331]

1 hour ago, Brundlefly said:

A good reason not to be a film composer nowadays.

 

Terrible job indeed! "Hey you, composer, can you more or less copy our temp track? Great!"

[Thor 7,493]

I think of Remote Control more as a "think tank" than a factory. As I said earlier, the composers emerging from there eventually find their own voice, and often have wildly different backgrounds and specialties (some are more into traditional orchestral music, like Benjamin Wallfisch, while others are more into electronica, like Junkie XL).

[publicist 4,643]

It doesn't result in distinctive scores, unfortunately: at best we get Wallfisch impersonating JNH and Danny Elfman (A Cure for Wellness, It), at worst when Djawadi & Jablonsky cook up wallpapers for blockbuster movies and series. Most notable scores nowadays happen beyond RCP (even if they probably earn the most money). While this is de rigueur in Hollywood, at least, it doesn't exactly enhance the art form.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

6 hours ago, Koray Savas said:

It’s a recording studio. He makes money if scores are recorded there. He’s not pimping out composers for kickback. 

 

Its not just a recording studio!  It's a whole production team of people who are there to sell film score services to film producers!  From composers to orchestrators to programmers to engineers!  It's a package deal.  Obviously he's not the agent for these composers.  But RCP is not just a recording venue.

[Thor 7,493]

2 hours ago, publicist said:

It doesn't result in distinctive scores, unfortunately: at best we get Wallfisch impersonating JNH and Danny Elfman (A Cure for Wellness, It), at worst when Djawadi & Jablonsky cook up wallpapers for blockbuster movies and series. Most notable scores nowadays happen beyond RCP (even if they probably earn the most money). While this is de rigueur in Hollywood, at least, it doesn't exactly enhance the art form.

 

You tend to think in very black/whites sometimes, publicist. I think it results in distinctive scores sometimes, and not only Zimmer's own scores. Like JXL's MAD MAX: FURY ROAD. Also, I'm not sure when Wallfisch joined RC, but the string of scores incluing A SUMMER IN FEBRUARY, DESERT DANCER and BHOPAL: A PRAYER FOR RAIN have all been brilliant, predominantly symphonic scores that have very little of what we associate with the typical RC sound. There are even bits of it in IT (the non-horror bits).

[KK 3,307]

16 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

but the string of scores incluing A SUMMER IN FEBRUARY, DESERT DANCER and BHOPAL: A PRAYER FOR RAIN have all been brilliant

 

Brilliant is a strong word for decent Marianelli knock-offs. Wallfisch has chops, but has yet to really find his footing I think.

 

RC, in theory, is meant to act like a hub for a lot of young composers to drive through the learning curve of the job, both by grasping the tech, and the nature of the industry itself. And Thor is right, most of these composers do go on to find their own voice after they leave. But while at RC, the nature of their roles hardly encourage unique musical output or thought in their work. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I was quite underwhelmed by Wallfisch's score for "IT."  The more lyrical bits that scored the town and childhood scenes were uninspired and dull.

[Thor 7,493]

2 minutes ago, KK said:

 

Brilliant is a strong word for decent Marianelli knock-offs.

 

I don't see the connection. These are far more classical than the post-minimalist romanticism Marianelli is known for (or rather WAS known for....we haven't heard much of that side of him since JANE EYRE and SALMON FISHING IN YEMEN, what, 6 years ago)? These days, Wallfisch is a far more exciting composer than Marianelli, IMO.

[KK 3,307]

Wallfisch's harmonic language and general sense of orchestration borrows a lot from Marianelli, which makes sense as he served as Marianelli's orchestrator for some time. Stuff like Summer in February is basically Pride and Prejudice-lite.

 

Wallfisch has technique down, but just isn't all that interesting in terms of content. And his handle on the modern blockbuster sound has yielded pretty subpar results so far.

 

 Marianelli, who has been short of good gigs lately, still has a far more interesting musical voice and is without a doubt, the more versatile composer. Hopefully we'll get something good with the new Churchill film.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

4 minutes ago, KK said:

Hopefully we'll get something good with the new Churchill film.

 

I'm hopeful for this as well.  So far it's only really been seen by critics, who of course cannot be trusted when it comes to scores.

 

But it's still been mentioned a couple of times in complimentary ways:

 

Quote

But the MVP here, the one person who’s able to hold the movie together despite all the dodgy bits in its latter half, is composer Dario Marianelli. Wright’s go-to guy has delivered some stunning work for the director in the past, but his score for “Darkest Hour” is a rare thing of beauty. Throbbing with vigor one moment, tumbling pianos towards despair the next, and then eventually entwining those disparate modes together into the cathartic bombast that accompanies Churchill’s famous speech (“We shall fight on the beaches…”), Marianelli’s music holds the film together, and the people of Britain along with it. 

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/09/darkest-hour-review-gary-oldman-winston-churchill-telluride-1201872512/

 

Quote

Beyond that, if Darkest Hour hits big with voters, nominations for Director, Writer, Production Design, and Cinematography are all possible, and Dario Marianelli’s original score is hands down one of the best of the year—if there’s justice in the film music branch, Marianelli will get a nomination.

http://collider.com/gary-oldman-oscar-chances-darkest-hour/#joe-wright

 

But there is of course your typical "the score sucks because I noticed it" ignorance

Quote

Production values are solid, although Dario Marianelli’s score is intrusive in many instances, laying on the obvious when less could have been more.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/review/darkest-hour-review-1034823

[KK 3,307]

Sounds right up his alley. Can't wait!

[publicist 4,643]

3 hours ago, Thor said:

 

You tend to think in very black/whites sometimes, publicist. I think it results in distinctive scores sometimes, and not only Zimmer's own scores. Like JXL's MAD MAX: FURY ROAD. 

 

Which i found horrible, so and i'm hard-pressed to think of any, save for the obvious Powell/HGW efforts.

 

Quote

Also, I'm not sure when Wallfisch joined RC, but the string of scores incluing A SUMMER IN FEBRUARY, DESERT DANCER and BHOPAL: A PRAYER FOR RAIN have all been brilliant, predominantly symphonic scores that have very little of what we associate with the typical RC sound. There are even bits of it in IT (the non-horror bits).

 

Brilliant??? Agreeable. As was 'Peter Pan'.

[Thor 7,493]

2 minutes ago, publicist said:

Which i found horrible, so and i'm hard-pressed to think of any, save for the obvious Powell/HGW efforts.

 

It's your right to have that opinion, but it was certainly distinctive.

 

2 minutes ago, publicist said:

Brilliant??? Agreeable. As was 'Peter Pan'.

 

No, absolutely and utterly brilliant. Especially SUMMER IN FEBRUARY, but also the other two.

[publicist 4,643]

You just do that to tease me. Or you really have a big John Debney collection.

[Thor 7,493]

What, you have an issue with John Debney now too? I mean, he's not the most original composer in the world, but he's brilliant at pastiche and musical entertainment when he's "on".

[publicist 4,643]

The point is, the word 'brilliant' should be reserved for composers who at least to overcome cliché and develop their own solutions instead of treading the same harmonic and idiomatic solutions other have done decades before them (and often better). Neither 'Summer in February' with its most expected pleasing soundscape courtesy of Rachel Portman nor any of the numerous Debney scores (i heard) even tries for something that hasn't been done to death before - which is an accomplishment, even for something as derivative as film music (often is).

 

I don't care much for Elfman, but when he's on i give him the kudos. Your other hero, Goldenthal, without question. What are the words you are going to invent for their home runs?

 

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,515]

When Goldenthal's on top form, the words "brilliant", and "fucking", come to mind (but not necessarily in that order ).

[Thor 7,493]

Well, publicist, I disagree strongly with your basic premise. If everything that mattered in music was originality and charting new ground, it would be a very meager selection to choose from. I happen to be one of those who can also enjoy some great pastiche, or "unoriginal" works that nonetheless display great skill and enjoyment. SUMMER IN FEBRUARY does by no means chart new ground in terms of orchestrational techniques and soundscapes, but it's brilliant at what it wants to accomplish -- a neoclassical, well-orchestrated, thematic score with lushness and "vivacity". Sometimes, that's enough.

 

Certainly, Williams himself would fall into this category on more than a few occasions.

 

But I guess this is why I've never seen you enthusiastic about anything. You want everything to be groundbreaking.

[publicist 4,643]

I am enthusiastic about enough things and have written so - i just don't use such misleading terms. But that doesn't compute with your robotic worldview (what else is new).

[Quintus 5,399]

I quite like a good hearty pastiche, too. Scores would be more agreeable to me these days if rich pastiche was more of a thing. Actually, I couldn't care less about originality in music at all.

[crocodile 8,000]

Why are you not a Giacchino fan then?

 

Karol

[publicist 4,643]

Forget it, he doesn't even know 80% of the stuff that has been coming out. 

[Quintus 5,399]

That's a fact.

 

7 minutes ago, crocodile said:

Why are you not a Giacchino fan then?

 

Karol

 

What I've heard from him isn't very compositionally rich. It's often pastiche, certainly, but it feels cobbled together to me. Sorry, I have tried.

[publicist 4,643]

If you are looking for 'compositionally rich' there are certainly more fitting directions (not RCP). But with Spotify & Co. up, i don't see much reason to reiterate that, anyone interested in good film music should find that stuff quite easily by clicking on recommendations for a composer's fan, for instance.

 

 

[Quintus 5,399]

I don't have Spotify, but that sounds like it's worth doing. Unlike some listeners, I don't mind having good music recommended to me at all. I'll sometimes spend an hour or so thumbing through the YouTube links here.

[publicist 4,643]

Yeah, it's especially for people like you that just need a vast library to choose from, where you can hop from one to another easily without ever getting into the OCD department (where's that 40-second cue from 1 hour into the movie!?!). Since a few years i have become quite adept at spotting things that might attract me by just having a quick skim, YT works, too but album releases are a bit more concise than fanmade suites et.

[Bilbo 3,709]

I was using Spotify for years but I recently switched to Apple Music. The playlists are curated by actual humans rather than algorithms. I find it a big improvement with playlists and recommendations. It’s more accurate than. “You liked JOHN WILLIAMS you might like HANS ZIMMER”

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Well, they're both film composers, so they do have a point.

[Bilbo 3,709]

 

30 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

Well, they're both film composers, so they do have a point.

 

But it’s a bit unnecessary as you can make that decision for yourself. I like a film composer maybe I’ll like this other film composer!

 

 

I guess the a better way to illustrate it is:

 

Spotify: You like BLACK SABBATH you might like SEPULTURA.

 

Apple Music: You like BLACK SABBATH you might like LED ZEPPELIN.

 

Now obviously there’s going to be overlap between all three canvases but I think the second example is more accurate.

 

 

[Thor 7,493]

3 hours ago, publicist said:

I am enthusiastic about enough things and have written so - i just don't use such misleading terms. But that doesn't compute with your robotic worldview (what else is new).

 

Who has the "robotic" worldview here? The one that is open to musical enjoyment in many forms and styles, and who doesn't always require groundbreaking originality? Or the one who's pretty much closed to everything unless it's the new Stravinsky or whatever? (I'm sorry, maybe I haven't read these enthusiastic posts of yours, but on this board, you often come off as somewhat of a "grouch" to me).

[Arpy 4,145]

21 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

I was quite underwhelmed by Wallfisch's score for "IT."  The more lyrical bits that scored the town and childhood scenes were uninspired and dull.

Caught the film last week and thought it could've had a stronger thematic identity to grasp onto instead of "Mysterious strings". Especially since the kids were a strong component of the film I felt the music needed to be there too. 

[publicist 4,643]

20 hours ago, Thor said:

 

Who has the "robotic" worldview here? The one that is open to musical enjoyment in many forms and styles, and who doesn't always require groundbreaking originality? Or the one who's pretty much closed to everything unless it's the new Stravinsky or whatever? (I'm sorry, maybe I haven't read these enthusiastic posts of yours, but on this board, you often come off as somewhat of a "grouch" to me).

 

You act really thicker than you ought to be. I was hanging you on the use of a misappropriated word that betrayed a puzzling lack of nuance. I wasn't correcting some newbie but a guy who prides himself a film journalist and as such should be able to think (and write!) in more sophisticated terms. 'Enjoyment' is not 'brilliance'. 

 

But let's stop this here, as you are getting on my nerves as you usually do and we both do not need that.

[Thor 7,493]

Who the fuck are you to tell me what I think is brilliant or not? Geez, talk about getting on people's nerves. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Have we reached peak "Have we reached peak Hans Zimmer"?

[Brundlefly 2,385]

16 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Have we reached peak "Have we reached peak Hans Zimmer"?

I think so.

[Display Name 60]

Hopefully. These discussions sometimes start interestingly but mostly they get nasty and the opponents insist stubbornly on their arguments. Just one of them in this case.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

 

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

20 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

 

I wonder if Hans applied that technique of out-of-sync attacks to those Lydian clusters in MOS and BvS?

 

 

It's hard to tell as the string orchestra stem is so far back in the mix at that point.