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The Phantom Menace vs. The Force Awakens


Josh500

The Phantom Menace vs. The Force Awakens   

62 members have voted

  1. 1. Which John Williams score do you like better?

    • Star Wars: The Phantom Menace
      43
    • Star Wars: The Force Awakens
      19


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16 hours ago, crocodile said:

The Force Awakens is a better score. I might not necessarily be better music but you can hear Williams was more "involved" in storytelling. It's quite unique for a Star Wars score to have a main theme that is actually developed over the course of the film. Usually, they are just sort of introduced fully formed and don't really have any arcs. But here Williams gives it a very specific purpose. I like that. The Phantom Menace has some really memorable highlights but, as was the case with all prequel scores, Williams sort of composed it despite the film. It's an often often pretty but ultimately meaningless glitter with no real consequence or conviction. Extremely well-crafted but also very passive and mechanical.

 

 

No, I disagree. TFA is a better MOVIE. Maybe that's why you think the way you do. Williams could have written literally anything, but you'll probably ALWAYS think the score of TFA is superior, just because the movie is much superior.

 

It's not easy to totally separate movie and score, but it's possible, and if you take the music alone, there's no doubt whatsoever that TPM is the superior score. If anything, it's probably harder to write for a movie like TPM that's not as involving or engaging as it could have been..... But JW did a spectacular job anyway! 

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1 hour ago, Josh500 said:

 

 

No, I disagree. TFA is a better MOVIE. Maybe that's why you think the way you do. Williams could have written literally anything, but you'll probably ALWAYS think the score of TFA is superior, just because the movie is much superior.

 

Exactly my thoughts. I've seen TFA recently and, indeed, the score probably works better in the movie, with respect to TPM, but this is because there is a huge difference in the qualities of the respective movies. Taken alone and judged as pure music, the score of TPM is much more inventive. Rey's theme really works perfectly with the movie, but it's not that engaging in itself. Daisy Ridley's performance and even just her presence on the scene contributes a lot to the effect.

 

Quote

It's not easy to totally separate movie and score, but it's possible, and if you take the music alone, there's no doubt whatsoever that TFA is the superior score.

 

You mean TPM?

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5 hours ago, Josh500 said:

No, I disagree. TFA is a better MOVIE. Maybe that's why you think the way you do. Williams could have written literally anything, but you'll probably ALWAYS think the score of TFA is superior, just because the movie is much superior.

 

It's not easy to totally separate movie and score, but it's possible, and if you take the music alone, there's no doubt whatsoever that TPM is the superior score. If anything, it's probably harder to write for a movie like TPM that's not as involving or engaging as it could have been..... But JW did a spectacular job anyway! 

No, I meant exactly what I said. I like TPM but have very little emotional connection to the music. It wasn't even the best score Williams has written in 1999. Plus, for every amazing highlight you get one filler cue of no musical interest. The whole stretches of the score, especially the Coruscant segment, are just some of the most boring and aimless underscore of Williams' career. It's boring to listen to and doesn't accomplish anything on screen.

 

I prefer AOTC on the whole. It ain't great either but at least there's more musical focus. And the film itself is even worse than TPM.

 

Karol

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In my haste last year, I did say that TFA was probably ahead of Jedi, and my favorite after Empire.  Now that the dust has settled, and I can reign in my own subjective feelings about the scores, I would probably lower it a couple of pegs and list the OT scores as the first three, then TPM, then TFA, giving a slight edge to TPM.  Admittedly I haven't listened to it in a while, but I have to recall my first impressions, as well as a recent listen-though, and confirm reconfirm it is a brilliant score, especially on a pure musical level.  That being said, Rey's theme is the best thing between the two, and Jedi Steps alone is enough to almost flip flop the two scores in my mind.

 

Things can still change should I hear a complete score presentation of TFA.

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21 hours ago, Stefancos said:

Wasn't that the Superman March? Which isn't a March either?

How come so many bands march too it. It is an effective march.

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10 hours ago, Arpy said:

As Karol mentioned, Rey's Theme is given greater significance within the narrative and develops over the course of the film. What's interesting is now it will develop further still and carry over into the next two films.

 

JoeinAR, the prequel scores are not autopilot scores. I would maintain that they are among the best scores in their respective years, each is a different beast entirely. I like how TPM has the gusto of the OT, AotC takes a slightly different approach, it's scored romantically and has more breathing room. RotS is the culmination of the previous scores this time with a greater sense of purpose and drive. 

 

I would say that TPM and TFA share many similarities: they both strive for the same sound as the OT scores and both are largely introductory in nature. I think after hearing the next two I expect to have a greater appreciation for TFA as the first in a trilogy and not necessarily view it as a weaker score in the larger context of all the saga.

 

 

Put the needle down

AOTC is a garbage score worse than the film which is also garbage. 

 

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45 minutes ago, JoeinAR said:

Put the needle down

AOTC is a garbage score worse than the film which is also garbage. 

 

Even when on the throne, Williams couldn't create something trashy enough to be on par with the awfulness of the film that is Attack of the Clones.

 

Not that it's a score that I particularly like: Just like with The Force Awakens, the score will go by the audience unnoticed. However, Attack of the Clones does have that fantastic love theme.

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1 hour ago, JoeinAR said:

Put the needle down

AOTC is a garbage score worse than the film which is also garbage. 

 

Au contraire, an addled mind like yours is clearly the result of the abuse of some needle-injected substance to have such a banal opinion. AotC isn't the best, but garbage? What makes it garbage? Elaborate... 

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1 minute ago, Arpy said:

Au contraire, an addled mind like yours is clearly the result of the abuse of some needle-injected substance to have such a banal opinion. AotC isn't the best, but garbage? What makes it garbage? Elaborate... 

The terrible music, the beyond terrible story, the unfathomable bad acting. The inept direction. Anything but special effects.That godawful beyond the stars, excuse me I need some insulin.

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Oh, absolutly.

 

I mean, Attack of the Clones has more to do with the overarching narrative thrust of the series, in that we see Anakin training to become a Jedi with Obi Wan, we see the Clone Wars initiated. But the execution of it is just terrible.

 

Outside of Across the Stars (which is gorgeous), I don't even really like the music.

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2 minutes ago, Holko said:

It's definitely the worst movie and the least good Williams SW score.

I wouldn't say so. It has the finest setpieces of the trilogy and also the best developed main theme.

 

Karol

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31 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Its Across The Stars, Joe. You're confusing Star Wars with Star Trek again.

 

 

Its not worth remembering 

8 minutes ago, Holko said:

It's definitely the worst movie and the least good Williams SW score.

Revenge of the Sh*t gives it a run for being worst. 

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No. Its so stupid. Its as if the writers had no common sense and nobody to tell them NO!

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AotC is not a good concept to begin with (a mystery film is not exactly what SW is about), but it could be excused if that mystery was well executed, or the movie was not incredibly boring, cringy, or just plain insulting. However, "it was some guy" is not exactly what I could call a proper payoff to a main mystery story thread. AotC has little to no good moments, it's bad all the way through, the worst moments pull it down a bit. I made an edit of it to fit in my Machete Order list, which introduces and resolves all the main plot points necessary to understand RotS, it turned out to be 5 minutes long. I never, ever want to watch this pile of crap in my life.

 

RotS has some very, very good moments, but also some of the worst of the entire prequel trilogy. It completely butchers many of the events and plot points audiences wanted to see since 77, but blows it out of the park with some others. It's completely subjective whether this pulls it down lower for anyone, wasted potential might be worse for you than boring horribleness. 

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One of the problems I find with Attack of the Clones, is that the conflict that is set up in the opening (which is, someone wants Padme dead), doesn't follow through the entire narrative. She is sent away for just that reason, and Anakin goes with her - just for that reason. But, during their entire stay on Naboo, no further attempt on her life is made. It was even worst in the rough cut: Lucas originally had the pair go to meet Padme's parents, sit in her room, etc...

 

Its a movie I watch gladly, but only in a meta kind of mindset. I just spend the entire running time (which, for a Star Wars movie, is considerable!) laughing off of the movie and the filmmakers.

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The Imperial March heard at the end of AotC is awesome! A different arrangement, suited for an audience of the 21st century! I also love the Conveyor Belt, which was chopped up in the film like most everything else.

 

Oh, AotC has its moments. It's a great score, forgettable movie.

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Yes, the Imperial March in the end is very nice. In fact, I like most of the material in the finale: The Emperor's theme leading into a solo soprano voice (an unusual choice for a Star Wars score!), the love theme completly unleashed, etc...

 

But I have to say that using it so blatantly distrupts the narrative of the trilogy, musically. The Phantom Menace and most of Revenge of the Sith do nothing short of a fantastic job in teasing the march, without stating it in its full militaristic guise. There are even good uses of it in Attack of the Clones: see the moment just after Anakin's confession.

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I think people are too picky. It's a great musical moment. That's something that should be appreciated. I know most people think the movie sucks the big one, and maybe there's some truth to that, but it's fascinating to see JW doing everything in his might to make the movie (musically) interesting and watchable..... 

 

All I know is, I like listening to that cue.

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

No one said its not a great piece of music Josh.

 

And methinks people should appreciate that more, instead of nitpicking on everything else....

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46 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I agree with Chen. Its a great rendition, one film too soon.

 

ROTS has nothing that comes close to it, weirdly enough.

 

Indeed, if there was ever a scene that called for a kickass, balls-to-the-wall rendition of the Imperial March, it was when Darth Vader led the clone troopers in the assault on the Jedi Temple.

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25 minutes ago, Josh500 said:

 

And methinks people should appreciate that more, instead of nitpicking on everything else....

 

Sure, because talking about the context of a great piece of music in the film, or film series it was composed for is just cynical nitpicking.

 

Right?

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3 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

Sure, because talking about the context of a great piece of music in the film, or film series it was composed for is just cynical nitpicking.

 

Right?

 

It's not just talking, it's complaining and nitpicking.

 

The focus is always on the negative rather than the positive.

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I should rephrase: I like that entire musical "set-piece". Not just the march - all of it.  It's genuinely good music. But:

 

As good as it is, it's flawed. It doesn't undo it's effectiveness, but it does mire it.

Even if it weren't flawed, a good moment doesn't save" the film. Or the score for that matter.

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3 hours ago, crocodile said:

Attack of the Clones is surely the worst Star Wars film. The Phantom Menace is better in comparison. But then, so is being shot in a leg.

 

I would compare the prequel trilogy to being kicked in the balls, kicked in the taint, and kicked in the asshole.  I don't want to be kicked in any of those three places, they're all terrible locations for a precision kick, but I would certainly still rank them in order of preference if I was forced.

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Both the scores and the films can be broken down to certain dramatic elements, which can be discussed in relative objectivity.

 

Like I said, I like the prequel scores way better. Even Attack of the Clones at least had that wonderful love theme for the average filmgoer to rest his or her hat on. Also, the quality and quantity of the orchestral (not to mention the choral) forces - cannot be beat by a small Hollywood freelance orchestra. 

 

As for the films, The Force Awakens has two advantages: it has great polish in terms of production value, and it has better characters. But Revenge of the Sith has better drama. It's a tough call for me.

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54 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

As for the films, The Force Awakens has two advantages: it has great polish in terms of production value, and it has better characters. But Revenge of the Sith has better drama. It's a tough call for me.

It's easy RotS is trivial, TFA has better characters. The drama does not really save it if its characters can hardly be taken serious.

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