The Phantom Menace vs. Attack of the Clones vs. Revenge of the Sith

[nightscape94 965]

A margin of error is to be taken into account.  There will always be that small group of fans who actually grew up as children with these prequel films and AOTC just hit that age soft spot

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[nightscape94 965]

[Smeltington 1,436]

All three have that "so-bad-it's-good" trainwreck charm, so on those terms AotC is a serious contender for best film.

[Chen G. 3,940]

Revenge of the Sith isn't a so-bad-its-good film, and I can even enjoy a lot about The Phantom Menace.

 

But Attack of the Clones? Sure, Absolutly!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

All three are awful and Disney will have to sink very low indeed to make something that repugnant.

[Chen G. 3,940]

Revenge of the Sith has some of the best drama in the series. And The Phantom Menace is, at the very least, a fun and quite expansive adventure.

 

They aren't good films at all. But they're okay to good Star Wars films.

 

Much in the same way that flawed and chauvinistic bond films from the sixties can still be good movies within the sensibilities of their own franchise.

[nightscape94 965]

When you say series, I assume you mean the whole kit and caboodle.  If that's the case, there is absolutely nothing in ROTS that is on the same plane as a anything in the OT in terms of drama or emotional weight.  The execution of in the dialogue, framing, and acting ruins any chance of making that a possibility.

[Smeltington 1,436]

There are lots of things in the prequels that I can enjoy without irony. But the aspects that would constitute a "good film" (writing, directing, etc) are more enjoyable to me in a kind of oddball, off-the-wall type of way. "Now this is podracing," "from my point of view the Jedi are evil", and so on. All very quotable. And AoTC is full of these little nuggets... with "I don't like sand" being the most infamous.

[Chen G. 3,940]

42 minutes ago, nightscape94 said:

When you say series, I assume you mean the whole kit and caboodle.  If that's the case, there is absolutely nothing in ROTS that is on the same plane as a anything in the OT in terms of drama or emotional weight.  The execution of in the dialogue, framing, and acting ruins any chance of making that a possibility.

 

The "original" trilogy really isn't particularly sentimental. Look at Ben's death in the original Star Wars: on paper its an emotional beat, but its undermined by the disappearance of the body and by the speed in which the action resumes, first with the shotout and than with the space dogfight, both of which end on a triumphant note. We get no time to wallow in the grief of what's happened.

 

That's purely because it is a kids' film and that was the perception of how a kids' film should approach the subject of loss: see old Disney films. What happens immediately following the death of Bambi's mom? On the other hand, you can compare to stuff like the death of Bruce's parents in Batman Begins where the movie continues to deal with their death for a good three minutes; or Fellowship of the Ring (especially the Extended Edition) where Gandalf's death continues to loom over Frodo for the rest of the movie.

 

Compare that with Empire Strikes Back: When Luke discovers the truth about his father, his anguish is much more palpable and it continues to accompany him until the curtain closes ("Ben, why didn't you tell me?"). That's drama. But that's just one film out of the bunch and, as it turns out, it wasn't as serviceable to 1980s audience, so Empire remains by far the least financially succesfull of all Star Wars films

 

So with Return of the Jedi, they return more to the formula of the original Star Wars: Vader's death and his pyre are sobering moments alright, but than you get others like the conflict between Han and Lando being appearantly resolved offscreen, we never see Leia come to gripes with the fact that Darth Vader, who tortured her, is her father, and there's Ewoks, etc...

 

Revenge of the Sith is sentimental and not in the trite way that, say, Attack of the Clones is with the "romance." When Obi Wan laments Anakin's fall from grace, that's powerful. When Anakin turns into Darth Vader, intercut with the birth of his children, its truly sad.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Revenge of the Shits is truly awful. It fails in so many areas. Acting, writing, directing,  art direction, cinematography, editing, and visual effects. Definitely among the worst films ever scored by Williams.

On 10/28/2017 at 5:08 PM, Josh500 said:

The questions should be "Which score/film is BEST", not better....

 

 

There is no best among these turds.

[Chen G. 3,940]

Being too critical of something that is supposed to be enjoyed is an exercise in futility. I much prefer liking films. Its more beneficial to me.

 

Acting wan't great in the original Star Wars or in Return of the Jedi, so that's a sin that - within the sensibilities of the series - can be excused to some degree.

 

The deification of the original trilogy, I find, stems mostly from people taking the strengths of Empire Strikes Back and applying them unto the first three films, even when its not warranted.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yeah, its our fault for having a too high expectation regarding quality.

 

Sure...

[JoeinAR 1,949]

You sadly underestimate Star War which is the best film of the 7.

[Chen G. 3,940]

10 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Yeah, its our fault for having a too high expectation regarding quality.

 

Sure...

 

I'm not going to argue that Revenge of the Sith is a good movie. It isn't. The level of the acting isn't acceptable and, along with some of the effects shots, it can completely take the viewer out of the illusion of the film. But, since acting problems permiate five of the first six films - that's something that, to me, is more forgiveable in a film of this franchise.

 

It can be a bad film, but a good Star Wars film, is my point.

 

9 minutes ago, JoeinAR said:

You sadly underestimate Star War which is the best film of the 7.

 

Indeed I do underestimate it! 

 

Too long a first act, too weird, too much aimed at kids, doesn't mesh that well with its prequels or sequels (oh, so now I'm supposed to believe Vader was going to be Luke's father all along? yeah, right), the acting isn't quite there still, etc...

 

Like I said, I prefer liking films, so I do enjoy it. I watch it and its good and entertaining, but for what's become of Star Wars as a franchise in hindsight, going back to where it all began one would have wished for it to be more than what it is. Way more.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

5 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Too long a first act, too weird, too much aimed at kids, doesn't mesh that well with its prequels or sequels

 

Wait, what? So that's a problem of the original film, and not of its sequels/prequels?

[Chen G. 3,940]

Fair.

 

It's possibly my only real issue with Empire Strikes Back.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

11 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

I'm not going to argue that Revenge of the Sith is a good movie. It isn't. The level of the acting isn't acceptable and, along with some of the effects shots, it can completely take the viewer out of the illusion of the film. But, since acting problems permiate five of the first six films - that's something that, to me, is more forgiveable in a film of this franchise.

 

It can be a bad film, but a good Star Wars film, is my point.

 

 

Indeed I do underestimate it! 

 

Too long a first act, too weird, too much aimed at kids, doesn't mesh that well with its prequels or sequels (oh, so now I'm supposed to believe Vader was going to be Luke's father all along? yeah, right), the acting isn't quite there still, etc...

 

Like I said, I prefer liking films, so I do enjoy it. I watch it and its good and entertaining, but for what's become of Star Wars as a franchise in hindsight, going back to where it all began one would have wished for it to be more than what it is. Way more.

Your comments about Star Wars are as strange as they are incorrect. But thanks for trying.

[Chen G. 3,940]

If being of an opinion that isn't full of heaping praise for Star Wars is being "strange" than yes, I'm strange. And proud of it!

 

Cheers, Gaffer!

[JoeinAR 1,949]

In this case strange is polite for wrong. It may also bring in taste issues.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

56 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Too long a first act, too weird, too much aimed at kids, doesn't mesh that well with its prequels or sequels (oh, so now I'm supposed to believe Vader was going to be Luke's father all along? yeah, right), the acting isn't quite there still, etc...

 

ANH has always been the problem child of the franchise and probably should have been removed from the canon or completely remade.

 

 

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Not A New Hope. Just Star Wars. I think only Alex, KM, Richard, Ricard and I are the only people who actually saw it.

[Chen G. 3,940]

Still better than Return of the Jedi, though.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

The original and two sequels are. None of the prequels though.

 

[Chen G. 3,940]

I don't know.

 

Maybe I like Revenge of the Sith more than Return of the Jedi. Maybe not. Needs a rewatch.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

How. ROTS is terrible.

[Chen G. 3,940]

It least it's less juvenile.

 

Although again, I'm conflicted on this. Same with Revenge of the Sith and The Force Awakens.

[John 2,032]

ROTJ is a good movie with some bad parts. ROTS is a bad movie with some good parts.

 

I'd take Ewoks and Lapti Nek over Hayden Christensen's acting and a scene depicting the imminent murder of innocent children any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

 

Neither are outstanding films in their own right, but ROTJ is the superior film on pretty much every level imaginable.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

The statement that there is much difference in quality between the three films is simply ridiculous. AotC is so bad it's good, but RotS hasn't the cheesiness of the first two films? Really? The third film is probably the most ridiculous one, since it tries to be dramatic.

[Muad'Dib 1,800]

9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

And The Phantom Menace is, at the very least, a fun and quite expansive adventure.

 

Wait, what?

[John 2,032]

Have you not seen The Phantom Menace? The Gungan hierarchy and culture is an incredibly deep and interesting civilization.

[Muad'Dib 1,800]

8 minutes ago, JohnSolo said:

Have you not seen The Phantom Menace? The Gungan hierarchy and culture is an incredibly deep and interesting civilization.

 

Interesting?

 

Deep? Because they live underwater?

[John 2,032]

I was being satirical, though I suppose that first attribute is, in a way, very accurate.

[Chen G. 3,940]

What I mean is that, in one movie, we visit this forested planet, an underwater environment, a palace, a desert planet and a large city. That variety and globetrotting aspect is important to adventure films, a genre to which this film certainly belongs.

[YoYoMama 48]

Well, this poll pretty much confirms what I already knew: TPM is so much heavier musically than the other entries. Battle of the Heroes, for one, drones on and on and I never really cared to listen to it repeatedly. It makes me crave Duel of the Fates, which is a similar style entry yet much more interesting thematically and from an orchestration standpoint has a bigger bite to it.

 

A lot of AOTC's cues were pulled directly from TPM, which I remember being disappointed by in the theater. Too much fan service in the later entries, as I really felt JW was somewhat uninspired by where the trilogy/story was going. I'm pretty sure he spent a lot more time on TPM than AOTC and ROTS as I imagine that GL had been meeting with JW quite frequently during the years-long prepro process on that movie. AOTC seems flat in comparison with only a few new themes and motifs here and there, but nothing as imaginative as the first entry in my opinion. It seems like JW got tired of trying to interpret or blend George's ridiculous story beats and pacing, that he just said "screw it, I'm writing ONE theme to pad over everything" and it actually worked to his credit, it's just not that interesting to listen to in concert form. 

 

TPM is actually up there in my top ten favorite JW scores, because as a ten year old kid, Anakin's theme opened by eyes to how leitmotifs can not only tell a story but also expand on a legacy by tickling your nostalgic sentimentality, i.e. Vader's hidden theme towards the end of the piece. You wouldn't notice if you weren't really listening for it, which is what made it one of the most important musical epiphanies I have ever had. I literally could not believe that something so cool could ever be done in such a subtle way. It's the reason I was initially disappointed in the TFA score, as that seemed very dry and "on the nose" compared to TPM, but now I love it for what it is. 

[Chen G. 3,940]

The Imperial March is all over Anakin's theme, not just that coda. 

 

As for Attack of the Clones, I don't think Williams was uninspired. He just tried to dabble in a more dense score, where the Love theme is the main theme (and the only long melodic idea) and there is a series of short motives and rhythmic ideas that are derived from it. To my mind, it doesn't work very well, but at least we can hang our hats onto that love theme.  Since it doesn't have another prominent theme to play off against, it does become a bit tired, but still.

[YoYoMama 48]

Yeah I know, but at the time it was coda that made me re listen to it and find all the other nuggets later. I was ten and stupid what can I say?  

 

Eh, it's just my own observation that he was uninspired based on the quality of the final product compared to previous entries and what a frankenstein of a movie it turned out to be. Imagine getting a clean AOTC to score and having to magically make it all work musically.... god. 

[Arpy 4,145]

People seem to shit on the score for AOTC yet is it too difficult to understand that Williams was only working with what material he was given? The film is agreeably sub-par and it didn't call for the same score as the rest of the films seem to demand. It's a little bit ridiculous to me to even suggest Williams was anything like uninspired. Could you imagine a wall-to-wall score for AOTC filled with every Williams-ism you could dream of? If the film doesn't require that type of score, then it follows Williams was doing the best he could with what the film needed.

[Chen G. 3,940]

I hardly "shit" on it. I probably like it a bit more than the score to The Force Awakens because of that love theme. I don't think it is the result of the nature of the film. It's just Williams trying something different for that score and it not paying off.

[YoYoMama 48]

You said it yourself; if the film itself is subpar how could one expect someone to be really inspired by it? With a few exceptions, most of JW's best scores are attached to some of the best movies out there. Sure, what John Williams wrote for AOTC was necessary for the film, but that's not really saying much. Across the Stars is a great theme, don't get me wrong, it's just that scoring AOTC must've been like trying to cook a five star meal using a slice of white bread, a pack of red vines, and a shot of vermouth. It's nothing against JW: you can't expect the man to always spin gold of out pure shit. 

[Chen G. 3,940]

I do loathe that film. But I think that, from Williams own point of view, Star Wars always was a bit silly, so I don't see a reason for him to be particularly turned off by Attack of the Clones, where he clearly wasn't turned off in the past, even with The Phantom Menace.

 

He just decided to try something new for the score. It didn't really work.

[Arpy 4,145]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

I hardly "shit" on it. I probably like it a bit more than the score to The Force Awakens because of that love theme. I don't think it is the result of the nature of the film. It's just Williams trying something different for that score and it not paying off.

I don't think he tried anything particularly different, though. The music doesn't strike me as anything but Williams writing music for rather placid scenes and some engaging chase music. What were people expecting?

[Chen G. 3,940]

It is a very different score: much more based on short and often rhythmic ideas, both for leitmotives and for the representation of individual action setpieces. The only real long-lined, melodic anchor is the Across the Stars theme.

 

Its also a much more interconnected score. Williams' always forges small connections between some of his themes, but on the whole he prefers writing very distinct ideas so you don't get them mixed up. But in Attack of the Clones, virtually every short idea is derived from Across the Stars, even if doesn't really make sense narratively speaking.

 

The result unfortunately is a score completely dominated by Across the Stars to the point that the theme becomes tired. Even Empire Strikes Back, which uses the Imperial March way too often, still has that love theme and even Yoda's theme as memorable ideas to play against the March.

[John 2,032]

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Even Empire Strikes Back, which used the Imperial March way too often, still has that love theme and even Yoda's theme as memorable ideas to play against the March.

 

You must be referring to the edited film version of the score, which tracks in the concert version of the Imperial March very often in the film. Williams actually used the theme quite sparingly and tastefully in his original uncut version of the score.

[Chen G. 3,940]

My memory is that its somewhat overused on the album as well. It might be more varied, but it's still in there a hell of a lot, especially for a two-hour composition.

 

Any other composer will be given grief for using a theme over 10 or 12 times in a two-and-a-half hour film....

[Romão 2,274]

Re-listening to the full score for the Phantom Menace. This is score is a powerhouse, full of so many different colours and settings. I truly do feel this is one of the best scores in JW's career

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 11:02 AM, JohnSolo said:

 

You must be referring to the edited film version of the score, which tracks in the concert version of the Imperial March very often in the film. Williams actually used the theme quite sparingly and tastefully in his original uncut version of the score.

The theatrical cut had that issue. The Imperial March plays almost every single time the Executor is shown.

[Trent B 337]

I like Revenge Of The Sith the most for the films.

For the score I had learned to grow and really appreciate Attack Of The Clones A LOT more especially with how much new material surfaced in the games especially The Old Republic. 

 

For the scores for myself personally it's AOTC > ROTS > TPM

[Naïve Old Fart 9,488]

As a film, TPM, has heart, and charm, and some great ideas, even though it falters, in its execution.

The other two are absurdly large turds. End of.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

All the prequels are really good for is shitposting quotes at opportune moments.