Rings of Power Amazon buys up Middle-earth, it searches the One Ring! (Rings of Power news thread)

[Pellaeon 593]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I think the better choice would be depicting the war with Angmar, which is also referenced numerous times in the sextet.

 

You know, they might yet. If they’re following the style of the movies, timelines get squooshed.

[Chen G. 3,942]

Yeah, but in this particular case the films establish the timeline quite clearly. Aragorn's age is clearly stated, and he's actually even older during the events of The Hobbit than he was in The Lord of the Rings, given that in the films only sixty years pass between the two, rather than over eighty, as it does in the book.

 

As for the war with Angmar, since Legolas has to explain it to Tauriel, who we know is six-hundred years old, tells us about the timeline. We also know that the wars of Gondor had ceased not too longer afterwards as Elrond states that "for four-hundred years we have lived in peace."

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

Even if these films are in "continuity" with Jackson's films, I don't think they're going to be be obsessed over it, any more than the makers of Star Trek Discovery (or Enterprise) worried much about Trek continuity. That's something fans do. Hopefully they'll hire creators that love and respect the material, but at the end of the day they're going to do what they want.  If they wanted to create a sequel to Lord of the Rings where the Fellowship reunites to combat an alien invasion, they could frankly do that.

 

And Amazon chose to focus on this time period for the same reason Discovery chose theirs....they think people are going to be most likely to watch if the show features characters and situations they're already familiar with.  

[Chen G. 3,942]

Yeah, but I don't think they'll make the war with Angmar concurent to Aragorn growing up. That's a much bigger lapse in the timeline than what we've seen.  If you recall, I was the one to suggest that they tweak the timeline so the great wars of Gondor and Rohan happen simultaneously with the War in the North, but to make it coincide with Aragorn's origin story? come on...

 

1 hour ago, Nick1066 said:

And Amazon chose to focus on this time period for the same reason Discovery chose theirs....they think people are going to be most likely to watch if the show can feature characters and situations they're already familiar with.  

 

Sure, but beyond just characters (some of which they are bound to recast) I think they're interested in maintaining the iconography of the series, as well: the things that it is known for - namely, big wars - which something like the war with Angmar has in spades. In fact, its referenced so often in The Hobbit one can almost imagine it was Warner Bros. plan for back then!*

 

(*it wasn't)

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

Where are you getting the idea that The War of Angmar is going to be part of this?

[Chen G. 3,942]

I'm not, @Pellaeon is.

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

I suppose if the series is successful, they could, and probably will, branch off into other eras. 

[Chen G. 3,942]

I think you're right: they'll start in terra firma with young Aragorn, and if its succesful they'll follow it up by going further down the line of the early third age. Hell, they could even do the second age! There's really nothing too substantial in the Silmarilion about Numenore that isn't in the appendices in some form. There are references to all of these periods in the sextet, so it also works in terms of relying on existing content.

 

Interestingly, the only major story in Middle Earth's history not referenced in the sextet at all is The Children of Hurin: the most we get is that the book Aragorn is reading when he encounters Boromir is the tale of Turin Turambar, but the the inscription is in Elvish and out of camera angle, so its not something casual audience would manage to hang on to.

[Barnald 365]

Well I was spot on in thinking that Strider mention at the end of BotFA was a studio insertion. These people are always thinking ahead. But even if Legolas is in this, I expect he'll be recast. It will be pretty silly having a youthful-looking Strider going around with a fuller, 40-something Bloom.

 

This could be good, and in terms of history could have flashbacks galore (perhaps even entire episodes). It almost certainly won't be, but it could be. If I was Bezos I'd be throwing everything at trying to get Shore, even kidnapping family members if need be (I jest of course).

 

I expect this to be consistent with Jackson's world, to a point. I think they'll be desperately trying to get Hugo Weaving, as Elrond will likely feature pretty prominently in this, and there would be an immediate link there. McKellen as Gandalf? Cate Blanchatt as Galadriel? It's quite possible, as they wouldn't have to be in it a great deal. And again, it would provide a significant boost to the series from the get-go.

 

As for the timeline, who knows. In terms of conflating and shifting events I wouldn't be at all surprised if they had Celebrian in this (well we're only about 450 years out). It would allow a lot of drama for Elrond and his sons, presuming they're in this, plus it would make for a strong arc.

[Chen G. 3,942]

25 minutes ago, Barnald said:

Well I was spot on in thinking that Strider mention at the end of BotFA was a studio insertion.

 

I really don't think it was.

 

Just a bit of prequel-itis on the part of the screenwriters. Nothing's wrong with that.

[Barnald 365]

3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

I really don't think it was.

 

Just a bit of prequel-itis on the part of the screenwriters.

 

Nah I'm not buying that. If Legolas turns up in this I guess we'll have our answer.

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

They need to recast everyone. Most of those actors are too old to piay those characters now. The only only one who could potentially pull it off would be McKellan, and even then only if they used him sparingly.

 

Shore returning would be sublime.

[Holko 9,491]

Weaving and Blanchett are definitely not too old for a cameo or two. It's only the (then) youngsters like Bloom who aged up noticeably.

[Chen G. 3,942]

Provided that the character's appearance won't be all too frequent, is it possible (given the absurd budget) that they would de-age him?

 

13 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

Shore returning would be sublime.

 

The interesting thing about that, however, is that Shore's creation is so vast from a thematic standpoint that he really has paved the road - either for himself or for another - very well. There already are established themes for just about every priniciple character in the story of Aragorn's origins: Two themes for Aragorn, a theme for Arwen, two themes for their relationship, a theme for Legolas, for Elrond (kinda), for Gandalf, for Sauron, etcetra...

 

Even if the showrunners were to dig further into the appendices, there's still ample grounds already set within Shore's magnum opus: we have a theme for Numenore (in the rarities), for Angmar (the Gundabad theme), for all the relevant Elf and Dwarf kingdoms, etc...

[Barnald 365]

58 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

They need to recast everyone. Most of those actors are too old to piay those characters now. The only only one who could potentially pull it off would be McKellan, and even then only if they used him sparingly.

 

Shore returning would be sublime.

 

While they might end up having to do so, I certainly think they will throw all they can at getting Weaving, Blanchett and McKellen, who can still pull off their roles I'm sure. They'll want some connective tissue with the film series in terms of casting, that much is evident, and having a familiar face or two will undoubtedly help to draw in viewers. If they get to the hunt for Gollum (and I'm sure they'll want to, bring us right up there), I don't see why Serkis wouldn't return for likely a very brief role (particularly in terms of dialogue). They'll obviously have to cast a younger Aragorn (likely several you suspect for the early years), and I don't think they'd want Bloom to return as Legolas. Perhaps they might seek Viggo (and even Liv Tyler) in some kind of bookending framing role if they wish to go down that route.

 

As for other characters from the films who may or may not return:

 

Thranduil - could they get Pace? I'm not sure. I wouldn't mind seeing it recast in any case

Bard - would Evans return? Possibly. If Bain is present I imagine he'd be played by an older actor

Haldir - will need recasting I think

Celeborn - again, can't see Csokas doing it, may as well recast

Tauriel - banish to the depths of Hades, but if included they'd probably recast with Lily in Marvel land now

Saruman - sigh

Radagast - they'll probably recast, though I've no problem with McCoy if they dialled it down and made him more dignified

Balin - has to be Stott, no reason it can't. His inclusion would probably also mean that of Oin (keep Callan) and Ori (recast please)

Dain - obviously needs recasting

Gimli - needs recasting

Bilbo - Freeman might do it if just a small role, which you imagine it would be. If they throw in a young-ish Frodo, you suspect he'd be recast but then Elijah doesn't age much.

 

Hard to say if they'll do anything with the other Dwarves (Gloin and Dwalin are probably the most likely to feature, if any), but if so I'd be happy to see the same actors in the roles.

[Chen G. 3,942]

I don't see the reason for at least half of those to even make an appearance. Sure, they want some connective tissue, but this is all taking it a bit too far.

[Barnald 365]

'I don't see a reason for so-and-so to feature' won't factor much into the heads of the showrunners and writers I expect.

[Chen G. 3,942]

Even from a fan-service standpoint, do you really think Dain or Bard would be important roles to reprise within the context of an Aragorn origin story? I don't think it will ever even cross the showrunners' minds.

[Barnald 365]

There's also room for much younger incarnations of Denethor and Theoden, depending on the timeline. You'd hope they wouldn't do something very unnecessary and include Boromir as a young boy. I believe he was born around 2977/78, and Aragorn's 'adventures' in those parts are said to have ended around 2980. It all depends on how much they want to skew things.

[Chen G. 3,942]

1 minute ago, Barnald said:

There's also room for much younger incarnations of Denethor and Theoden

 

There totally is.

 

I think, going on with the (seemingly quite solid) notion that it will be an Aragorn origin story, we need look no further than what the sextet is telling us: As with most prequels, I'm sure the showrunners will try to enact a lot of the moments that are referenced in there: Well, Aragorn does talk with Eowyn about riding to war with Thengel, when Theoden was "only a small child", so that would very likely make it into the show.

 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

It kinda sucks that Legolas is the only Fellowship member who can conceivably show up here (well, Gandalf could but I don't think McKellen would do it).  It sucks mostly because Bloom is and always has been such a shit actor.

[Barnald 365]

3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Even from a fan-service standpoint, do you really think Dain or Bard would be important roles to reprise within the context of an Aragorn origin story?

 

Well they might want to explore the war in the north, who knows. The scope offered by the books is rather thin on the ground, so they might choose to latch onto such things. They might do an episode where Aragorn ventures to Dale and Erebor, who can say at this point?

 

We might consider the possibility that rather than a season about Aragorn, then something else, then something else, and so forth, they might simply decide to do the whole proposed series as one themed around the life of Aragorn and the timeline between The Hobbit and LOTR, using him as the main character to structure the narrative around. Ergo, we might have one season devoted to his upbringing in and around Rivendell (with flashbacks to pad it out), another to his time in Rohan and Gondor, another to his journeys in the south, perhaps the fourth could bring him back north and set him among the rangers, and the last for the hunt for Gollum. This is just a thin sketch of course, I doubt they'll go with this.

[mstrox 6,637]

Do you think it's possible that Aragorn and Legolas can kiss?

[Nick1Ø66 4,687]

2 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

It kinda sucks that Legolas is the only Fellowship member who can conceivably show up here (well, Gandalf could but I don't think McKellen would do it).  It sucks mostly because Bloom is and always has been such a shit actor.

 

Bloom would want too much money.

In any event, he looked out of place and too old to me in The Hobbit. Just didn't work for me. I just don't see how Bloom pulls of a younger Legolas 20 years later.  Blanchett was OK, but now...I don't know. Weaving looked older also, but I looked past that because he had to be there. Even the ever young looking Elijah Wood looked too old. Mckellen works because after a certain age old is old, and he's buried under that beard and prosthetic nose. And he's not an Elf, so he's not supposed to look young and beautiful.

 

It's ironic that the Elf characters are the logical ones that can be brought back story wise, because they're basically timeless, but can't (at least convincingly) because the actors who portrayed them are very mortal.  I think they'll try to get who they can, as others have said just to pull in viewers, but I sort of wish they wouldn't. 

 

1 hour ago, mstrox said:

Do you think it's possible that Aragorn and Legolas can kiss?

 

Of course they can kiss. We've already seen Aragorn kiss.

 

What a silly question.

[mstrox 6,637]

Nick.  Be serious.

[Chen G. 3,942]

29 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

t's ironic that the Elf characters are the logical ones that can be brought back store wide, because they're basically timeless, but can't (at least convincingly) because the actors who portrayed them are very mortal.  I think they'll try to get who they can, as others have said just to pull in viewers, but I sort of wish they wouldn't. 

 

Its part of why I thought its a good idea to go further back into Middle Earth's history where such characters either don't appear, or are younger enough that you can accept them being re-cast.

[mstrox 6,637]

TBH I'd accept anybody being recast at any stage in their character's life.  Who cares! 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Yeah people used to be a lot less precious about roles being recast in things.

[John 2,032]

They could also just go the mo-cap route and de-age certain actors like they did in Rogue One and that upcoming Scorsese movie.

[mstrox 6,637]

12 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Yeah people used to be a lot less precious about roles being recast in things.

 

People pray to the gods of "continuity" in every building block of a movie, and the nerdiest among us bristle at the idea of recasting.  I probably got my hackles up at the idea of them recasting Princess Leia for Episode IX, although that had more to do with Carrie Fisher's legacy than any in-universe thing. 

 

The truth is, even in the biggest, nerdiest, and continuity-heavy modern franchises, we adjust and it's fine.  Edward Norton and Terrence Howard were replaced by Mark Ruffalo and Don Cheadle as Hulk and War Machine, and both were an upgrade.  The slightly de-aged Ian Holm was replaced with Martin Freeman and he was really good.  Every James Bond and every Batman has had something to offer.  The important thing is that a movie tells a good story with good characters.

 

Eventually, Lucasfilm and Marvel are going to get antsy and want to tell stories within their prime timelines, even after the actors have bowed out - contractually or otherwise.  Robert Downey Jr. will be off sipping virgin mai-tais while somebody else is playing Tony Stark, and we'll have Alden Erererererich and two randos playing Han/Luke/Leia, going on adventures between Star Wars and Empire.  And when Legolas and Aragorn finally kiss, it may not even be Orlando Bloom and Stuart Townsend.  Whatever, man.  Let's embrace it.

 

[Chen G. 3,942]

That's also true. In this particular case even more so because its also moving into a different medium (from film to TV).

 

I think continuity is important when you are trying to tell one story across several films. You would expect the individual parts of a single film to be in continuity with each other - and the same is to be expected of a series that functions as one big movie split into severa parts.

 

20 minutes ago, John said:

They could also just go the mo-cap route and de-age certain actors like they did in Rogue One and that upcoming Scorsese movie.

 

If its the same actors you don't need them to mocap their roles. You just need to tweak their appearance. Its not impossible to get right.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I prefer Star Trek III Saavik to Kirstie Alley

[mstrox 6,637]

I prefer most people to Kirstie Alley!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

2 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I prefer most people to Kirstie Alley!

 

Aw, I liked her in Cheers (even if I prefer Diane).

[Pellaeon 593]

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Hell, they could even do the second age! There's really nothing too substantial in the Silmarilion about Numenore that isn't in the appendices in some form.

 

If they wanted to get a proper Númenor adaptation, they could get a license for it. This new TV license happens to be for LotR, but future licenses could be for any work. They are NOT piggybacking on the old Saul Zaentz film license; they negotiated it from scratch from the literary estate.

[Chen G. 3,942]

And exactly what pieces of important information about Numenore and its demise aren't in the Lord of the Rings appendices? None. Its not one of Tolkien's most well-fleshed out stories by any means.

[Pellaeon 593]

I don’t agree, and I don’t understand your point. If I were to go to the Tolkien Estate and ask to do a Númenor series, under what circumstances would they possibly say, “Okay, but only use the info from the LotR Appendices”?

[Chen G. 3,942]

Even now, with the estate being very cooperative indeed, acquiring the rights to something isn't something that's done overnight. So if they can get by using what they can currently use - they'll probably take it.

 

And really, anything between the foundation of Numenore and the War of the Ring (except maybe the fall of Eregion which is very much expanded upon in the Unfinished Tales) is told in sufficient detail in the appendices alone. Tolkien's other writings don't add too much to this time period, which is little more than the connective tissue between the great tales of the First Age (Tolkien's original concept) and the two quests in the late Third Age.

[Pellaeon 593]

There exists a fascinating, if sometimes patchwork, story cycle about Númenor. If one hasn’t read “The Notion Club Papers,” one might easily consider it all to amount to nothing more than parenthetical LotR backstory; but it is really substantive in its own right.

The Fall of Númenor

Written: 1936, second version after 1937
Published in: The Lost Road

The Lost Road

Written: 1936 - 1937
Published in: The Lost Road

The Notion Club Papers

Written: Late 1945 - 1946
Published in: Sauron Defeated

The Drowning of Anadûnê

Written: c. 1945 - 1946
Published in: Sauron Defeated

Akallabêth

Written: c. 1949 - 1950, published version probably 1958
Published in: The Silmarillion and The Peoples of Middle-earth

The Tale of Years of the Second Age

Written: During the early 1950s
Published in: The Return of the King and The Peoples of Middle-earth

Tal-Elmar

Written: c. 1955
Published in: The Peoples of Middle-earth

A Description of the Island of Númenor

Written: Probably c. 1960
Published in: Unfinished Tales

Aldarion and Erendis

Written: Probably c. 1960
Published in: Unfinished Tales

The Line of Elros: Kings of Númenor

Written: No date given, perhaps during the 1960s?
Published in: Unfinished Tales

[Holko 9,491]

I remember really enjoying the Númenor portion of Unfinished Tales. Should reread the whole thing after I finish Book of Lost Tales.

[Chen G. 3,942]

The unfinished tales have a  rare gem of a story that happens in Numenore,  Aldarion and Erendis. But the story of Numenore itself and its downfall is told in the appendices with all but the trivial details from the other versions (such as the shape of Sauron's altar) already in it.

[Pellaeon 593]

Okay, but the drama!
 

Quote

‘Narîka ’nBâri ’nAdûn yanâkhim,’ he shouted, lifting up both his arms. ‘The Eagles of the Lords of the West are at hand!’

 

Then all at once Jeremy began to speak. ‘Now I see!’ he said. ‘I see it all. The ships have set sail at last. Woe to the time! Behold, the mountain smokes and the earth trembles!’

 

He paused, and we sat staring, oppressed as by the oncoming of doom. The voices of the storm drew nearer. Then Jeremy began again.

 

‘Woe to this time and the fell counsels of Zigûr! The King hath set forth his might against the Lords of the West. The fleets of the Númenoreans are like a land of many islands; their masts are like the stems of a forest; their sails are golden and black. Night is coming. They have gone against Avallóni with naked swords. All the world waiteth. Why do the Lords of the West make no sign?’

 

There was a dazzle of lightning and a deafening crash.

 

‘Behold! Now the black wrath is come upon us out of the West. The Eagles of the Powers of the World have arisen in anger. The Lords have spoken to Eru, and the fate of the World is changed!’

 

‘Do you not hear the wind coming and the roaring of the sea?’ said Lowdham.

 

‘Do you not see the wings of the Eagles, and their eyes like thunderbolts and their claws like forks of fire?’ said Jeremy. ‘See! The abyss openeth. The sea falls. The mountains lean over. Urid yakalubim!’ He got up unsteadily, and Lowdham took his hand, and drew him towards him, as if to protect him. Together they went to the window and stood there peering out, talking to one another in a strange tongue. Irresistibly I was reminded of two people hanging over the side of a ship. But suddenly with a cry they turned away, and knelt down covering their eyes.

 

‘The glory hath fallen into the deep waters,’ said Jeremy weeping.

 

‘Still the eagles pursue us,’ said Lowdham. ‘The wind is like the end of the world, and the waves are like mountains moving. We go into darkness.’

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

We want more Radagast!!!

[mstrox 6,637]

Tolkien has a character named Jeremy?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

The three most noble Vanyar to cross the sea: Jeremy, Craig, and fair Darrell.

[Pellaeon 593]

Wilfrid Trewin Jeremy

[mstrox 6,637]

If anyone sees my man JRR, tell him that names dumb as hell.

[Pellaeon 593]

Bilbo Baggins
Barliman Butterbur

Gaffer Gamgee

Gandalf the Grey

Gil-galad

Thorin son of Thrain son of Thror

Melkor Morgoth

Finrod Felagund
Turin Turambar

The Horn of Helm Hammerhand

 

This guy totally ripped off Stan Lee’s shtick!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Glorfindel!

[mstrox 6,637]

It's spelled "Galadriel."