Rings of Power Amazon buys up Middle-earth, it searches the One Ring! (Rings of Power news thread)

[Chen G. 3,949]

I think he was a candidate for Balin, so...

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

My number 1 fear in life is somehow finding myself in Peter Mullan's bad books.

[Nick1Ø66 4,713]

1 hour ago, Glóin the Dark said:

 

On the plus side, that might imply that the writers aren't under the delusion that redistributing lines of dialogue among the characters, or shoehorning in chapter titles, constitutes fidelity to the source material.

 

Well these writers have little to no dialogue to redistribute, or any kind of substantial material to "adapt". So we'll see if they're up to the task.

 

I think of it as akin to the last couple seasons of Game of Thrones. The writers had a rough outline of what was going to occur, provided to them by Martin, but they had to largely create the plot details and diaologue on their own. Only the GOT teams had six seasons of experience writing these characters, intimate knowledge of their motivations, an existing, established story to build on, and access to the author. And yet without actual books to base what was happening on, and discipline what they were doing, we got the fiasco that was seasons 7 & 8. Yet the AMZ LOTR writers don't even have what the GOT writers had, and will be more or less making up most of it based on very lightly drawn source material from Tolkien. I'm not sure how many fans know or appreciate the extent to which this will essentially be fan fiction.

 

So I guess if you liked the last couple seasons of Game of Thrones, or at best the Dol Guldur/White Council stuff from The Hobbit, you'll love this!

[Chen G. 3,949]

3 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

So I guess if you liked the last couple seasons of Game of Thrones,

 

The issue with the last season of Game of Thrones had nothing whatsoever to do with source material.

 

It had everything to do with pace. Very few things are worse than pacing which is too fast.

[Nick1Ø66 4,713]

While I think there were a lot more problems to GOT's endgame than pacing. But that's sort of my point. They didn't have Martin's books as a guide.  Martin's books at least gave them a framework to build around. When left to their own devices, we got the mess that was seasons 7 & 8.

 

The LOTR writers have even less to work with than the GOT writers had for those last couple seasons. But who knows, maybe they're that much more talented.

25 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

It had everything to do with pace. Very few things are worse than pacing which is too fast.

 

Faster! More intense!

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

55 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

Well these writers have little to no dialogue to redistribute, or any kind of substantial material to "adapt". So we'll see if they're up to the task.

 

Yeah, but my point is that I don't think the lack of source material implies all that much one way or the other, in relation to either the quality of the writing, or the quality of the show overall, or the fidelity of the show to the spirit and philosophy of Tolkien's work. We already have the Jackson-Walsh-Boyens screenplay which - despite having the full novel to draw upon - is full of mediocre material, is not where the great merits of the film lie, and which Tolkien himself would have despised. It's true that they did benefit hugely from a detailed pre-existing plot which, as their other work shows, they couldn't have come up with themselves. But Tolkien isn't the only person who could create an effective story.

 

I don't mean to imply that I have high expectations for the Amazon show. I don't have any expectations...

[Nick1Ø66 4,713]

19 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

 

Yeah, but my point is that I don't think the lack of source material implies all that much one way or the other, in relation to either the quality of the writing, or the quality of the show overall, or the fidelity of the show to the spirit and philosophy of Tolkien's work

 

Quote

But Tolkien isn't the only person who could create an effective story.

 

And that's what these writers will be doing...telling their own stories, broadly inspired by some of Tolkien's characters and situations.   At best, it will be an entertaining fantasy series. I don't see how it can be more than that, given what they have to work with. And even if it's really, really good, I'm deeply sceptical that it will show "fidelity to the spirit and philosophy of Tolkien's work." 

 

I think the lack of source material is a much bigger deal than you do. It would be like a bunch of TV writers creating a series based on the little information we have about Harry Potter's parents & their history from the books. And that's all. You basically know what happened, but you're still going to have make up pretty much everything.

 

 

 

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

4 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

I don't see how it can be more than that, given what they have to work with.

 

It probably won't be more than that, just because most things aren't, but I don't see why it can't be. Being based on a book isn't a prerequisite for a film or TV programme to be great.

 

7 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

And that's what these writers will be doing...telling their own stories, broadly inspired by some of Tolkien's characters and situations.

 

One could say that David Milch was telling his own stories broadly inspired by some characters and situations from the town of Deadwood in the 1880s, and in so doing he created the greatest TV series yet made...

 

8 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

I'm deeply sceptical that it will show "fidelity to the spirit and philosophy of Tolkien's work."

 

I'm fairly confident that it won't. (Not that I regard that as automatically being a bad thing.)

18 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

I think the lack of source material is a much bigger deal than you do....you're still going to have make up pretty much everything.

 

I don't really understand your argument. Many films and TV programmes make up literally everything for their scripts, including many of the best ones.

[Nick1Ø66 4,713]

I don't disagree with you, the show could be fantastic for what it is, no doubt. But it won't be related to Tolkien except in the most peripheral sense.  I'm actually looking forward to the Wheel of Time series more. And I couldn't get past the first volume of that because I found it to be impossibly silly. But a lot of people seem to love those books so I'm interested in seeing what they do with them.

 

And on Deadwood, agreed!

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

1 minute ago, Nick1066 said:

...it won't be related to Tolkien except in the most peripheral sense.

 

I agree with Nick!

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,713]

2 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

 

I agree with Nick!

 

 

Famous last words...

[Nick1Ø66 4,713]

EDIT: The previous post contained herein with the recent news that Amazon's LOTR series has been accused of not being diverse enough has been deleted for potential political content.  Please enjoy this classic moment from The Hobbit instead.

 

 

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

It had specifically been accused of not having any Asians in the cast.

 

It does have a lot of people of colour: Amazon seems to be playing Numenore up as more Middle Eastern than initially concieved, a bit like Middle Earth's version of Dorne...

 

It also has a female lead. What was her name again...I think it was Galadriel or something like that...

[Arpy 4,145]

Everytime Hollywood makes a big deal over diversity it sours the well-intended gesture of including diverse characters and in trying to avoid having token ethnicities like in the past, it ends up looking exactly like it.  

 

Diverse cast members is the least of my worries when it comes to this show right now, because race and ethnicity won't mean a thing if the writing is shit.

[KK 3,307]

Just came across this tweet today. For anyone on the fence about TORN's credibility...

 

 

[Pellaeon 593]

Race is an issue within Middle-earth. A show about Númenor can hardly avoid it. I wonder if they will be able to tackle it without coming across as pandering or preachy. The Númenóreans were pretty big jerk colonialists who put indigenous peoples to the sword in order to pave the way for themselves or their allies to settle. Sometimes these people were Sauron-worshippers, but Tolkien still does not condone them being persecuted, and wrote a pretty poignant story (“Tal-Elmar”) from their point of view. Others (notably the Dunlendings) were not in league with Sauron but became so after Númenoréan persecution.

 

That’s probably the easier aspect of this to tackle (albeit prone to heavy-handedness). What might be harder to swallow is the fact that the Númenóreans do have actual genetic superiority, great (supernatural) height and longevity being the two most obvious markers. An even more delicate issue is the concept of original sin and the occasional hint that certain groups of Men are capable of breaking free of the Shadow and others aren’t, based on whether or not their ancestors rejected Melkor in the earliest times.

 

The core of the Atlantean/Númenórean myth is based on Minoan civilization (the drowning) with a hint of Babylon (Tower of Babel), so to cast Middle-eastern actors seems right to me. Later Gondor obviously parallels Byzantium in many ways. But in the middle of the Third Age there was that whole Gondorian civil war called the Kin-Strife, which was all about a faction rejecting a royal family that had mixed blood with the Northmen. That’s where the Corsairs of Umbar come from—Númenórean purists, who nevertheless went on to intermingle with Haradrim, to the point of becoming indistinct from them in a generation or two.

[Nick1Ø66 4,713]

25 minutes ago, KK said:

Just came across this tweet today. For anyone on the fence about TORN's credibility...

 

 

Their Twitter account is awful.  They post ignorant rubbish like that on there all the time. It’s stunning actually how little the people who run a Tolkien related website know about Tolkien.

 

I suppose they’re OK for spy reports about the show, if that’s your thing, but otherwise they’re worthless.

[Bilbo 3,709]

1 hour ago, Nick1066 said:

Their Twitter account is awful.  They post ignorant rubbish like that on there all the time. It’s stunning actually how little the people who run a Tolkien related website know about Tolkien.

 

I suppose they’re OK for spy reports about the show, if that’s your thing, but otherwise they’re worthless.

And if there’s big news about any other franchise they have to try and piggyback it and it reeks of insecurity. 
 

It’s an awful twitter feed. 

[Chen G. 3,949]

2 hours ago, Pellaeon said:

Race is an issue within Middle-earth. A show about Númenor can hardly avoid it.

 

Yes, but two issues:

 

1. The show isn't shaping up to be about Numenore at all: its about the Elves and the creation of the Rings of Power, with Numenore as a subplot.

2. A lot of these POC actors are playing Numenoreans - not just the people they occupy.

 

2 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

Their Twitter account is awful.  They post ignorant rubbish like that on there all the time. It’s stunning actually how little the people who run a Tolkien related website know about Tolkien.

 

I suppose they’re OK for spy reports about the show, if that’s your thing, but otherwise they’re worthless.

 

 

Its also awful for reports on the show.

 

Now they're running a ludicrous story that Amazon wanted to add Hobbits to the Second Age storyline, but couldn't because the rights to The Hobbit belonged to MGM. Two problems there:

 

1. The idiot who writes their tweets seems to have a hard time grapsing the difference between the book The Hobbit and the concept of Hobbits.

2. MGM does not hold the TV rights to The Hobbit, and so are largely irrelevant; they hold the theatrical distribution rights of The Hobbit, and that's it.

[KK 3,307]

2 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

I suppose they’re OK for spy reports about the show, if that’s your thing, but otherwise they’re worthless.

 

Yea, I used to only frequent there for the latest scoop on The Hobbit films, which they were usually pretty good at getting across. But otherwise, seems like a page desperately trying to stay relevant.

[Chen G. 3,949]

49 minutes ago, KK said:

which they were usually pretty good at getting across.

 

In those days, TheOneRing.net were being fed information directly by WingNut films.

 

WingNut films are not making this show, so TORn have nothing now; or close to nothing.

 

Plus, that guy Justin is dense as hell. Its not so much him getting the wrong information so much as failing to make sense of the information he's fed and ending up reporting pure histrionics.

 

I remember a while back he interjected on one of TORn's shows, saying Amazon might want to get James Horner to score the show...

[Nick1Ø66 4,713]

On 5/27/2021 at 8:43 PM, Chen G. said:

Now they're running a ludicrous story that Amazon wanted to add Hobbits to the Second Age storyline, but couldn't because the rights to The Hobbit belonged to MGM. Two problems there:

 

1. The idiot who writes their tweets seems to have a hard time grapsing the difference between the book The Hobbit and the concept of Hobbits.

2. MGM does not hold the TV rights to The Hobbit, and so are largely irrelevant; they hold the theatrical distribution rights of The Hobbit, and that's it.

 

I just popped over to TORN for the first time in a while. It's absolutely stunning how bad their reporting is. They're claiming that Amazon now "owns" all the film & TV rights to both The Hobbit and LOTR and can do whatever they wish with the characters. Basically that Amazon owns all of Middle-Earth. How can anyone whose business it is to report on stuff like this get it so wrong? And that article has been up for almost two weeks now.

 

Their constant bad takes on what Tolkien wrote is one thing, at least in that case they're getting stuff wrong about books they've probably never read. But this? Someone should really say something to them.

 

And that someone should be you!

[Chen G. 3,949]

42 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

Someone should really say something to them.

 

And that someone should be you!

 

Actually, I've been on TORn's bad side for a while now, and since squabbling inside the community is not good for anyone, I've been on my best behaviour around them for a while, with the ultimate goal of reconciliation.

 

But yeah, its a very bad article. It was written by Justin, who seems to be the source of most of the misinformation coming from TORn's way, and he clearly doesn't understand that the film rights to The Hobbit are not the same as the right to use Hobbits in your story...

 

But I have something kinda big with regards to the show coming up in less than a week... its best to have cleared the air prior to it... 

[Nick1Ø66 4,713]

Christopher Tolkien's nightmare continues:

 

‘The Lord Of The Rings’ Goes On: Anime Film ‘The War Of The Rohirrim’ In Works At New Line

 

Quote

The War of the Rohirrim focuses on a character from the book’s appendix, the mighty King of Rohan, Helm Hammerhand, and a legendary battle which helped shaped Middle-earth heading into LOTR. The anime pic will expand the untold story behind the fortress of Helm’s Deep, delving into the life and bloodsoaked times of Hammerhand. Overall, the movie is a companion piece to New Line’s LOTR trilogy and is set roughly 250 years before that movie during the third age (Note Amazon’s upcoming Lord of the Rings mini-series is set during the second age).

 

[Bilbo 3,709]

Well that looks like the two trees to me. And is the city Gondolin?

 

September 2nd 2022

[Holko 9,525]

Looks too much like Minas Tirith stylewise.

[KK 3,307]

Not sure how I feel about that whole digital sheen...but looks pretty I guess.

[Nick1Ø66 4,713]

Hmmmm. Is that supposed to be Valinor? At this point I’m confused as to what exactly Amazon holds the rights to.

[Monoverantus 363]

I was just wondering the same thing. Flashback to Galadriel's youth, before the Trees were destroyed?

[Chen G. 3,949]

 

29 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Hmmmm. Is that supposed to be Valinor? At this point I’m confused as to what exactly Amazon holds the rights to.

 

Bingo.

 

The show seems to be Galadriel-centric. I think this is really just a flashback for some of her backstory.

 

22 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

I was just wondering the same thing. Flashback to Galadriel's youth, before the Trees were destroyed?

 

Amazon can show glimpses of the first age, so long as they are taken from The Lord of the Rings. And the Two Trees are mentioned first thing in Appendix A.

[Nick1Ø66 4,713]

So it's just the 100 or so pages from the Appendices they can use, correct? And I'm assuming any backstory or history mentioned in the main text as well?

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

For the purposes of the first age stuff, which I think is just a prologue/flashback.

 

For the second age, it seems they can use pretty much everything. Certainly, without the rights to Unfinished Tales them having the correct shape of Numenore and the names and locations of all its settlements on their map would be in violation of the rights.

[Nick1Ø66 4,713]

Admittedly I haven't been following this closely, but I'd love to know exactly what they've licensed. I'm wondering now if they more bought the rights to certain characters, "stories" and situations (e.g. anything from the Second Age), rather than specific books.

 

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

I wouldn't know, but I'm willing to bet money their main source will be "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn." That's the one bit of writing that really goes into all the Celebrimbor stuff in any depth.

 

According to their contracts with New Zealand authorities:

 

Quote

subject-matter or material derived from, or otherwise inspired by, the novel “The Hobbit”, the “The Lord of the Rings” trilogy of novels, and other related works, in each case written or inspired by J.R.R. Tolkien and includes references to places, characters and events occurring in, or in connection with Middle-earth

 

[toothless 963]

1 hour ago, KK said:

Not sure how I feel about that whole digital sheen...but looks pretty I guess.

For something to be released in more than a year, I’d say it’s promising 🙂

[Chen G. 3,949]

Its probably not a finished shot anyway; a live-action component with digital concept art in the background.

 

I think it looks nice. We hadn't really seen Elven cities as such: Rivendell is more Elrond's estate than a city, and isn't particularly big; Lorien is more about the Mellyrn trees than any architectural wonder, the Woodland Realm is a cave and Mithlond is quite nice, but seemingly empty.

 

The significance of the shot is not in itself, but in what it bodes for the look of Elven cities that are a part of the story proper like Forlond and Ost-in-Edhil. If they look half as redolent as this, I'll be quite happy.

 

And I think it definitely establishes a stylistic continuity with the films.

[Nick1Ø66 4,713]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

I think it looks nice.

And I think it definitely establishes a stylistic continuity with the films.

 

It looks OK. That is to say, it's digital concept art, and it looks like it. I do agree that this definitely shows they're going after stylistic continuity with Jackson's film. I'm not even sure what canon means in this context, but clearly Amazon wants to at least give the impression the two projects are linked and exist in the same 'universe'.

 

That section from the NZ contract is interesting, and does lead me to believe Amazon acquired the rights (and is limited) to specific characters and stories, rather than entire books outright.

[Chen G. 3,949]

There's another contract for Season One, if you like that sort of thing:

 

https://www.mbie.govt.nz/dmsdocument/13979-season-one-memorandum-of-understanding-for-the-5-uplift

 

I've sent you this before, only I accidently just sent the executive summary rather than the whole thing...

 

10 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

but clearly Amazon wants to at least give the impression the two projects are linked and exist in the same 'universe'.

 

And yet until now it wasn't clear to some people. I've had discussions with people who deluded themselves into thinking they'll see a completely new design aesthetic.

 

Even the aspect ratio is the same! 2.40:1.

[Nick1Ø66 4,713]

30 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

And yet until now it wasn't clear to some people. I've had discussions with people who deluded themselves into thinking they're see a completely new design aesthetic.

 

That's silly. If it's not broke don't fix it. From their point of view, why would Amazon reinvent the wheel? It's only in their best interest to have the series associated with the films. I imagine that's part of the reason they're content for people to be calling it Amazon's  "Lord of the Rings" series thus far.  I think a good deal of the public probably still think the series is Lord of the Rings, and I’m sure that's fine with Amazon.

 

I'm not saying it's necessarily the correct, or most interesting, or artistically courageous decision to keep the film's look, but from Amazon's standpoint it's a no-brainer.

 

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

Oh, I agree. Plus, its been said by John Howe (and why would they get John Howe if not to emulate the same look?) and by Jackson several times, too. But some people still clung to that idea.

 

I know of at least one whom this image had turned around.

[KK 3,307]

With all that said, if that is indeed Valinor, I wish the design was more distinctly its own. Feels a little too Minas Tirith-lite to me.

 

At least with the LOTR films, each place had such a distinct look of its own. You would never mistake any of the sites for generic fantasy locations.

[Chen G. 3,949]

I see the issue, but I think you're overstating it.

 

It does look a little bit like "Minas Tirith meets Rivendell" but just a little bit; and its not a main location for the show anyway: probably just a glimpse.

[Holko 9,525]

Minas Tirith style elements over a less covert Mont Saint Michel knockoff base. Why would the Gondorians be copying Valinorian architecture?

[Nick1Ø66 4,713]

They clearly liked their architect.

[Monoverantus 363]

6 hours ago, Holko said:

Minas Tirith style elements over a less covert Mont Saint Michel knockoff base. Why would the Gondorians be copying Valinorian architecture?

I mean, for what it's worth they weren't even the first to build a city called "Minas Tirith"...

[Holko 9,525]

Haha good point. *tower

 

Gondorian architecture in general then, Minas Tirith/Anor+Osgiliath. The white bricks, those domes, towers, the shape in general, those long buttresses.

[Monoverantus 363]

I think this is a general problem with visual adaptation. Reading the books, you can imagine the realms of gods and angels as sublime, awe-inspiring locations, but if you try to visualise it you run the risk of just getting cartoony. The locations realized in PJ:s trilogy may be fantastical, but they're consciously made as if they were real places you could live in (to some extent). If you want to keep that realism, you must to adhere to some sort of architectural principals, which will inevitable make cities start to look a bit the same. Sure, I picture Elven architecture as light, flowy, art noveau-ish, but if you need walls and towers to defend a city... yeah they're not gonna be that.

 

All that said I don't disagree with you, having more unique, instantly recognisable cities would be great.

[Chen G. 3,949]

I still think its a neat design.

 

Not the greatest, but good.

[Nick1Ø66 4,713]

I hope shots like this are more featured in flashbacks rather than a prologue. I just don't think lengthy prologues work well in TV...they rarely even work well in cinema, and Lord of the Rings was definitely an exception.  Since a lot of the audience will probably tune in expecting to see a LOTR adaptation or sequel, maybe you have a scroll explaining where we are in Middle-earth's history and relationship between the races at that moment, etc. but that's as far as I'd take it.

 

Game of Thrones has a very rich and detailed backstory contained in the books, but still there was no prologue telling us how Westeros was divided among competing Houses, or the history of the Targaryans and their dragons, or of the Wildlings, White Walkers and need for The Wall.  All of these were crucial elements to the story, but the show nonetheless started in medias res and the audience got along just fine as the backstory was revealed organically.

 

What I do think a show like this could make effective use of limited flashbacks, ala what Jackson did in The Hobbit.  This could add some nice visual context to illustrating events as characters speak about them, and give viewers a glimpse into the First Age.

 

Of course, who am I kidding? Of course there will be a prologue, because that's what Peter Jackson did after all, so it must be set in stone.  I'm sure the LOTR show runners will even try to convince the directors to throw in the occasional Dutch Angle as well.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Yeah, I would have loved an in medias res opening for a change, but this does seem to point in the direction of a prologue. Not a huge issue for me by any means, but it would have been nice to not have a prologue for a change.