James Horner's TITANIC (2017 4CD expanded edition from La-La Land Records)

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Dawson. Rose Dawson.

[NL197 368]

I don't post enough to want to bother with an avatar. I mean they're cool and tall but the tail thing is a little freaky. 

[Jay 37,287]

If you're going to be part of the discussion you really should have some kind of image up as an avatar instead of the generic empty guy image

[Wojo 2,453]

10 hours ago, NL197 said:

I don't post enough to want to bother with an avatar. 

 

You don't post enough for me to not ignore you. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

10 hours ago, Woj said:

Are you really yelling at the blind guy to put on an avatar? 

 

Yes.

Problem?

[Wojo 2,453]

Sigh. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

You missed the baby... you missed the blind man.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

49 minutes ago, Woj said:

 

Sigh. 

 

It would be discrimination against the sighted to only demand NL197 to have an avatar.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Okay, how do I set up/choose an avatar? Quite happy to do it, but can't help wondering why it's so important.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

It's the unwritten rules of online social etiquette.

[MedigoScan 324]

It doesnt even need context

[Naïve Old Fart 9,497]

2 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Okay, how do I set up/choose an avatar? Quite happy to do it, but can't help wondering why it's so important.

 

P.M. me, and I'll do it for you 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

12 hours ago, Jay said:

If you're going to be part of the discussion you really should have some kind of image up as an avatar instead of the generic empty guy image

 

I don't even have a picture of him. He exists now only in my memory.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

9 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

 

I don't even have a picture of him. He exists now only in my memory.

 

Your picture is incorrect! This is the Doctor:

 

 

[NL197 368]

There. 

 

[Jay 37,287]

[bollemanneke 3,337]

There, I think I did it, this is the only file I had that would upload. Does the counsel approve?

[Bilbo 3,709]

Well at least it isn’t the butcher’s apron. 

[LOTRHobbitFan 20]

2 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

There, I think I did it, this is the only file I had that would upload. Does the counsel approve?

 

You're on this council but we do not grant you the rank of master. 

[Bilbo 3,709]

Seriously can’t stay away from this set for long. It’s absolutely perfect! I love that so much of it is brand new. 

 

2 1/2 miles down is just breathtaking. 

 

There’s a sci-if exploration score, a romantic score, and a disaster score all wrapped up in the 2 hour main programme. It’s the best of all of Horner’s abilities. Definitely his magnum opus IMO

[Naïve Old Fart 9,497]

That there's the bottomless pit, baby;

two-and-a-half  miles straight down.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Oh baby, baby, are you seein' this, boss?!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,497]

You are so full of shit, boss 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Turn the camera off.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,497]

You know, the same thing happened to Geraldo. Never recovered.

[Jay 37,287]

 

On 12/18/2017 at 9:13 AM, Jay said:

I could never, ever get behind including a 5 minute long piano demo that Horner never actually meant for anyone except Cameron to hear in the main program of the complete score.  That makes absolutely no sense.

 

On 12/19/2017 at 7:26 AM, Richard Penna said:

What? It absolutely does if that demo is the cue that was used in the film.

 

The demo deserves to be ON THE SET - absolutely, no question about that whatsoever!  It shouldn't be IN THE MAIN PROGRAM is what I'm saying.  The reason is, its not a film cue, its a 5 minute long arrangement of the love theme.  It doesn't have the pace and flow of music underscoring on screen action, its a longform arrangement of a theme that goes on for 5 minutes, with an improv'd ending no less.  It would completely stop the flowing narrative of the main score dead in its tracks if you suddenly have to sit through a 5 minute piano demo in between proper film cues that all advance the narrative.  It would make no sense to include it in the flow of the main program.    It makes significantly more sense to include the cue Horner recorded for the scene in question, even though it wasn't used.  The fact that a cue was or wasn't used in the final cut is never a reason to take a cue out of a main program.

 

Now, as I mentioned earlier, if they had gone ahead and "re-created" the film edit by taking the first 2 minutes and putting that faked ending on like they did in the film and put that in the main program, I could get behind it, as its such an iconic moment of the film, and the proper cue Horner recorded for the scene would still be in the set   But since they didn't do that, they did they absolutely right thing by putting the Horner cue in the main program and the piano demo on the bonus track disc.

 

 

On 12/25/2017 at 2:58 PM, Bilbo said:

@Jay I'm still not convinced that "The Portrait" from Back to Titanic wasn't specifically recorded for that album. I know you've called it another demo but I really don't see anything to suggest that it was recorded at the time of the film sessions. 

 

Here: http://jameshorner-filmmusic.com/the-words-of-james-horner-4-back-to-titanic/ Horner talks about Back to Titanic and he says of the cue: 

 

I really do believe this was recorded after the fact for BTT. Which is what everyone has always believed of it anyway. 

 

I think it was recorded after the original demo (the one Cameron tracked into the film), certainly - and I do believe Horner recorded it to try to get Cameron to use that one instead of the first demo, since he didn't like his playing on the original demo.  He probably worked really hard on it, and was probably very happy to have it released on BTT.  But it was recorded in 1997 during the film's production, it wasn't recorded in 1998 just for BTT.

[Richard Penna 3,670]

25 minutes ago, Jay said:

The demo deserves to be ON THE SET - absolutely, no question about that whatsoever!  It shouldn't be IN THE MAIN PROGRAM is what I'm saying.  The reason is, its not a film cue, its a 5 minute long arrangement of the love theme.  It doesn't have the pace and flow of music underscoring on screen action, its a longform arrangement of a theme that goes on for 5 minutes, with an improv'd ending no less.  It would completely stop the flowing narrative of the main score dead in its tracks if you suddenly have to sit through a 5 minute piano demo.  It would make no sense to include it in the flow of the main program.    It makes significantly more sense to include the cue Horner recorded for the scene in question, even though it wasn't used.

 

You see, I don't get why you have such an aversion to it being in the main program if it's the exact recording used in the film. If it's longer than the scene, well aren't some intended cues longer than their scene? I'd suggest most are actually. At least some of the track you're hearing is what you heard in the scene.

 

Also, if I can refer to this:

 

On 3/20/2017 at 1:13 PM, Jay said:

If the music editors cobbled together some curiosities using bits of what he recorded for the final film during the end of post production, those edits are not recreated for these kinds of sets typically.

 

I think that's being very dismissive of what can be very powerful moments in the final film. I simply don't have the same slavish devotion to the composer's original intentions - I think that for notable scenes, and extreme cases of alternates, the film versions should come first, followed by first intentions.

 

Now this is a flawed argument, I'll fully concede. Some films have such chopped up scores that it would be a mess on album, and the intended version is probably the best way to do it (Horner's The New World comes to mind). However, I think if you take certain cases, it's worth an album producer thinking about what the listener is expecting to hear for certain scenes.

[Jay 37,287]

2 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

You see, I don't get why you have such an aversion to it being in the main program if it's the exact recording used in the film. If it's longer than the scene, well aren't some intended cues longer than their scene? I'd suggest most are actually. At least some of the track you're hearing is what you heard in the scene.

 

Apples and oranges.  You're talking about compositions made by the composer for a cut of the film, and the final cut of the film happened to remove some of those scenes.  The fact that a film gets edited down after the composer records a cue has no relevance to presenting the work of the composer on CD. 

 

Those kinds of film cues are completely and utterly different from a piano demo arrangement of a theme that was never meant to be heard by anyone.  How can you not see the difference?

[Richard Penna 3,670]

I do see the difference. But whether or not the demo was meant to be used is actually pretty irrelevant to me.

 

It was used in the film. People remember that recording from the film. Simple! (For the record, I removed all traces of Rose's theme from my playlist. Can't stand it these days).

 

I guess it comes down to debating preferences, rather than trying to argue that one way 'makes no sense'. Both do, depending on what you're looking to get out of the score.

 

One thing I remember well is the FotR OST confusing the hell out of me in my soundtrack infancy, when an alternate section appeared in a track, and I wondered, where's that great part I just played in the film? It took me a long time to realise that albums are often not very representative of the film mix. It was probably an early indicator of my current thinking.

[Jay 37,287]

I completely get personal preferences, and I completely get any individual personally choosing to hear the piano demo in the flow of the main score in place of the cue Horner wrote for the scene.

What I'm talking about is the producers of the set preparing the CD set to be sold to the public.  Do you honestly, actually think it would make sense for them to have put the 5 minute piano demo in the middle of the main score program?  Do you seriously, honestly think that majority of people on the planet purchasing the set would want it that way?  If Horner was alive, do you think he would ever want the set presented that way?

[Bilbo 3,709]

The portrait seems to be an odd thing to get hung up on though as the main program has so little resemblance to the final film mix anyway.

 

 

[Jay 37,287]

Well, its presenting the score that Horner wrote, not the score that Cameron cobbled together for the final cut.

[Bilbo 3,709]

Exactly. (My comment was more directed at RP than you Jay as I believe we’re pretty much on the same page here when it comes to the composer’s intentions). 

[bollemanneke 3,337]

52 minutes ago, Jay said:

I completely get personal preferences, and I completely get any individual personally choosing to hear the piano demo in the flow of the main score in place of the cue Horner wrote for the scene.

What I'm talking about is the producers of the set preparing the CD set to be sold to the public.  Do you honestly, actually think it would make sense for them to have put the 5 minute piano demo in the middle of the main score program?  Do you seriously, honestly think that majority of people on the planet purchasing the set would want it that way?  If Horner was alive, do you think he would ever want the set presented that way?

Yes, except your last question. As Richard said, this is what people remember. Why is it suddenly so important to everyone that Horner didn't like it? People buy this set because they loved the score of the film, not because they go: Hmm, Titanic... What would that sound like? I might buy this one... Regardless of Horner's opinion, the Southampton alternate also just works way better.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The album version of Southampton is one of the biggest film score disappointments ever. I warmed up to it, but I was so let down on the first listen. It wasn't until the first Harry Potter album that I would experience similar disappointment.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

How's the new 4 disc set, Justin?

[Jay 37,287]

To be clear, earlier when I said "makes no sense" I was never talking about it not making sense for any end user to want to hear that demo wherever they want it, not at all - I would never judge anyone for making any personal playlist they wanted whatsoever, and don't think anyone is wrong for wanting to listen to the demo in place.  I was only saying as a professionally released album product, it would not make sense to put the demo in the main flow of the score instead of on the bonus disc.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Officially finished the whole set, listened to it in my preferred order.

 

The themes and dramatic/romantic parts were as appealing as always, but I found a lot of the action material really unengaging. The Building Panic Suite remains my go-to cue when I want some good Titanic music depicting the sinking. The biggest problem I have with it is that so much of the action feels... unfinished, as if Horner forgot to write parts for half of the orchestra.

 

The Southampton alternate is too quiet.

 

The synth voices are only bearable when they are playing at soprano level.

 

The bagpipes in the prologue are outrageous.

 

And does someone know why we have two versions of the ragtime band cue on all the albums? I love the piano one.

[Bilbo 3,709]

They’re not bagpipes they’re Uileann pipes and I’ll not hear a bad word said against them!

[Chen G. 3,943]

Well, technically they still are bag-pipes; just not Great Highland Bagpipes.

 

And yes, they're a beautiful instrument. Much more lyrical than their highland cousins.

 

That said, their affiliation to Titanic other than "James Cameron loved listening to Braveheart" is a tenuous one.

[Bilbo 3,709]

Yeah they’re technically “bag-pipes” as there’s a bellows and pipes but as you said they sound more lyrical. They’re smaller and played in a different manner. You blow bagpipes but you use your uileann (Irish for elbow) with Uileann pipes. I love that Horner used them so much (and that he used them in Braveheart despite them being Irish not Scottish). 

 

I think even  our “war pipes” are different to the highland pipes to some degrees even though you also blow into them.

 

They’ve become my favourite instrument over the last few years and I’m tempted to learn them. They’re not cheap though. 

[Chen G. 3,943]

8 minutes ago, Bilbo said:

I love that Horner used them so much (and that he used them in Braveheart despite them being Irish not Scottish). 

 

Yeah, but its an understandable change: He wanted to use bagpipes for very lyrical passages, so the highland bagpipes were out of the question. Also, trying to record a highland bagpipes indoors with an orchestra is not an easy feat. Its like how they couldn't record the rhaita with the orchestra in Lord of the Rings. Too effin' loud!

 

I think there's a Highland Bagpipe in "The Battle of Stirling", though. Too loud and drony for Uileann Pipes!

[NL197 368]

11 hours ago, The Doctor said:

The album version of Southampton is one of the biggest film score disappointments ever. I warmed up to it, but I was so let down on the first listen. It wasn't until the first Harry Potter album that I would experience similar disappointment.

 

How does it compare to the proper film version in your opinion?

I view them as: 

Album version: A more basic, song-form arrangement of the main "Titanic" theme. 

Film version: A proper orchestral film score cue. 

It was a 'Holy Grail' to get that film version and I love it dearly. I love the film version of 'Leaving Port' even more than that...that was a real pleasant surprise considering most of it was never heard before. 

As for the piano demo: 

 

I agree that its position in the album's playlist is appropriate. 

 

That being said, it's in the main program of my customized album. 

For years Horner was accused (big surprise) of using the wrong instrument in Braveheart with those pipes....it was always a deliberate choice and yet because it was Horner, people had to make the wrong assumption of him being wrong, stupid, or...whatever negative term one likes about said choice. Like, how arrogant and ignorant are people? 

 

Also their use in Titanic wasn't mainly because Cameron loved Braveheart, it was also because of the ship's Irish connections. 

 

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

4 hours ago, NL197 said:

For years Horner was accused (big surprise) of using the wrong instrument in Braveheart with those pipes....it was always a deliberate choice and yet because it was Horner, people had to make the wrong assumption of him being wrong, stupid, or...whatever negative term one likes about said choice. Like, how arrogant and ignorant are people? 

 

Also their use in Titanic wasn't mainly because Cameron loved Braveheart, it was also because of the ship's Irish connections. 

 

Yeah, choosing Uileann Pipes was a practical choice, and to my mind, one that payed off handsomely: I love the pipe parts in that score to bits! The Quena and synth parts, on the other hand...

 

As for their application in Titanic: Yeah, in the Irish folk-band they make sense. But as an instrument in the orchestral lineup of the score? not so much. And its not just the instrumentation, its also the melody. Loving Braveheart as much as I have in the last few years really has detracted from my enjoyment of Titanic. I hear it, and I hear variations of the Braveheart material everywhere.

 

And yes, one of the themes from Braveheart is itself derived from "Amazing Grace" but that was actually demanded by the script.

[fommes 153]

At what point does the unused Lovejoy Chases Jack and Rose (it's the one on disc 1 right?) exactly begin?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

15 hours ago, Bilbo said:

They’re not bagpipes they’re Uileann pipes and I’ll not hear a bad word said against them!

 

I prefer them on Braveheart!

[fommes 153]

Also: Butterfly Comb starts at 1.32?

[Bilbo 3,709]

1 minute ago, Stefancos said:

 

I prefer them on Braveheart!

 

That's not really a bad word against the instrument! SO OK!!!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

And yes, one of the themes from Braveheart is itself derived from "Amazing Grace" but that was actually demanded by the script.

 

Did Horner use bagpipes or Oirish elbow ones for Amazing Grace in The Wrath Of Khan?

[Chen G. 3,943]

Sounds like Highland Bagpipes to me.