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James Horner's TITANIC (2017 4CD expanded edition from La-La Land Records)


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For the book I was in contact with 2 of the 3 musicians present at the Irish music session.

 

So I just sent them a message asking them to listen to the film clip to try to confirm (or not) if it is them playing.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jean-Baptiste Martin said:

For the book I was in contact with 2 of the 3 musicians present at the Irish music session.

 

So I just sent them a message asking them to listen to the film clip to try to confirm (or not) if it is them playing.

 

 

 

Eric Rigler being one of them?

 

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On 04/05/2022 at 11:39 PM, StRuPiE said:

 

Eric Rigler being one of them?

 

Yes, absolutely! Eric hasn't answered me yet.
 

I got a reply from the percussionist. In his message he explains that it is indeed him that we hear in the clip "Luckiest in the World". He plays Irish Bodhrán and Irish Musical Bones.

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That's totally awesome you get these guys to respond to some random geeky questions :) But I'm still not convinced, let's see what Eric has to say about it and in the meantime I delved into the subject matter a little more.

You probably know I made that fan edit/mix and been working a long time trying to perfect it, so I've gathered a lot of material over the years and that makes it easier to compare source/score/stems.

 

I've specifically focussed on the intro of "A Lucky Ticket" from the original film cue and compared it to the "Heaven Help Us" Bootleg Track 5 / "Live Stems" R02-S05 We're Going To America / LaLaLand Score "1-14 Lovejoy Chases Jack and Rose".

One can only conclude that the film matches closest to the HHU and Live Stems tracks, not only from an audio pov but also if you look at the waveform and the edits. That can't be a coincidence. The LLL re-recorded tracks sound completely different as one would expect and the edits don't match up.

For further proof, I've added this zip which includes excerpts from the aformentioned cues for you to compare and a waveform so you can visualize the things I'm trying to explain.

 

Again, I'm not being direspectful to the original musicians or editors just trying to proof that what we hear in the movie is not what is on the LLL Score album, for this particular section of the movie. Interesting enough, the track "Score_Titanic_LaLaLand_Track1-14_Lovejoy_Chases_Jack_And_Rose_excerpt1" is actually used in the movie but later when the actual Lovejoy chase begins (but only for the first part). The second part (as I described in my previous posts) is from the HHU score.

 

I'd be blown away if I'm totally wrong here and it would be huge that these musicians could replicate almost exactly what was recorded 12 years before. I mean come on, Rigler and Hinnigan are the best but would they be able to pull off a performance from a recording they weren't even involved in?... I guess we'll find out soon. :D

 

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3 hours ago, Jean-Baptiste Martin said:

@StRuPiE Yes, you are absolutely right about "Lovejoy Chase".

I made a mistake in my April 20th post about this track.

As soon as I get Eric's answer I will share it.

 

Ok, glad you finally figured it out... So that means you have to rewrite that section of your book ?!? and oh... maybe you need to tell your source his information is not completely accurate :D I bet he missed the part where they finally licensed the music for HHU. And now that I think of it, even the cue sheet has it wrong (or we don't have the most recent revised file). Maybe that's the reason why so many are confused. It did correctly mention the source music of Michael Stearn's "The Beacon" though.

afbeelding.png

Can't wait for Eric's reply.

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5 hours ago, StRuPiE said:

Ok, glad you finally figured it out... So that means you have to rewrite that section of your book ?!?

In fact I changed my mind following your reactions on April 20th but I did not express it immediately because it was late in France at that time.
 

Then on Wednesday I took some time to study the subject with you. In my post on Wednesday when I talk about "Love Joy Chase" between 0:22 and 1:24, I talk about the video [TITANIC] - "The Lucky Ticket" (Complete Score / Film Version) posted by RadioKidCharlemagne.

And I say that this is not what we hear in the film.
 

That's why I contacted the two musicians, I'm looking with you for the source of this musical passage missing from the 4CD edition.

 

The confusion for the last 3 days is probably due to my English which is not perfect?

 

For the moment I have no reason to change the content of the book where the people who worked on the project say that the track heard in the film was recorded in September 1997. To this day this remains for me the most plausible version of the story.

(A little off topic, I wanted the book to be above all an "oral history" where there are a lot of quotes.)

 

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Yes well I'm happy you finally agreed that a part of your (acquired) information isn't completely accurate. And if we can get to the bottom of this and set things straight, all is good. Just to set our minds at ease :)

 

I was thinking if Eric hasn't the final verdict on this, maybe we could contact Mike M. from LLL and ask for his opinion. He worked closest on this score in the recent years and maybe to his recollection he can shed more light on this matter. There must be a reason the cue for "A Lucky Hand" wasn't included on the 4CD. If our speculation of the cue being licensed from HHU is true, that would make a whole lot of sense.

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12 hours ago, Jean-Baptiste Martin said:

@StRuPiE Yes, you are absolutely right about "Lovejoy Chase".

I made a mistake in my April 20th post about this track.

As soon as I get Eric's answer I will share it.

 

It's TITANIC, dude; don't worry about it.

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  • 2 months later...

Like the percussion player and the music editors, Eric Rigler just confirmed to me that "A Lucky Hand" was recorded in September 1997.


For information Eric Rigler is in London this weekend for Titanic Live.

 

https://www.royalalberthall.com/tickets/events/2022/titanic-live/

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  • 4 weeks later...
6 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Unbelievable that this still isn't OOP after all the insane hysteria surrounding this score. If everybody on that surreal FFShrine thread had bought it...

 

I was one of them and I bought it the very second it went on sale. 

 

I doubt that there were more than 5000 people posting in that thread 😂

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Right, but the petitions, drama and stream of e-mails to bigwigs that that thread inspired... I mean, I'm baffled that both ET and CE3K went faster than Titanic. But then again, HP is still in print too, so maybe I'm just completely ignorant.

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10 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Right, but the petitions, drama and stream of e-mails to bigwigs that that thread inspired... I mean, I'm baffled that both ET and CE3K went faster than Titanic.

 

I remember that thread, too :lol: there were tales of the score encompassing 9 CDs...and only one Shrine member possessed a safety copy after Horner or Lightstorm requested that all extra copies be destroyed...

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11 hours ago, NL197 said:

No no.

That was TITAN-TIC. Different film. Not TITANIC. 

 

;)

 

Ol' WilliamTaylor1969....ugh. 

I don't miss those days. 

I dunno... I'm definitely happier not being in trading/sessions anymore now, but it was all good fun, being dramatic over leaks, thinking the world would end when the Shrine got something, breaking into a sweat when I finally got HP4...

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1 hour ago, bollemanneke said:

I dunno... I'm definitely happier not being in trading/sessions anymore now, but it was all good fun, being dramatic over leaks, thinking the world would end when the Shrine got something, breaking into a sweat when I finally got HP4...

 

I don't even remember when I last went there! Feels like a bygone era. Like you, I'm not in that world any more - seems so much simpler. There are too many people in the trading world who are in it for the 'likes' and the praise, instead of just sharing the goodness and it began to feel very toxic.

 

I mean, these days, basically anything that's 'out there' just gets put on YouTube, and the specialty labels' flood of releases has mostly destroyed my wish list.

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I started on the open Shrine and transitioned to the specialty label world through this forum, so the trading world from the outside just from hearing about it seems like a collection of stingy egofreaks. You don't own it in any way, just like everyone else, no right to put value on it and measure others' worthiness to listen to it, all are equally unallowed to pirate it so everyone might as well just have it openly. I don't even put ads on my YT uploads of my local movie score rips.

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  • 2 months later...

Hi everyone. After recently discovering the whole Schindler's List 2CD expansion issue, where additional non-OST tracks included on CD2 were of a lower quality (discovered by comparing files in an audio spectrum analyser), I thought I would go through my current library of expanded scores to see if there were any other mastering/audio "problems" that I had missed.

 

I discovered something quite interesting for this 4CD Titanic expansion (one of my favourites ever, if you read further back in this thread): it seems that there is a slight frequency cutoff for tracks which appeared on the 1997 OST when compared to the previously unreleased music included in the 2017 expansion. I will include screenshots comparisons here. This difference is consistent across every single OST track. I'm not sure what it means or how it affects the sound (apart from potentially making the OST tracks slightly quieter?...), but I would love to hear from anyone who could shed some light on this, just out of curiosity if nothing else.

 

What I'm talking about is demonstrated most clearly when looking at the extended Hard to Starboard track. The previously unreleased opening and ending have a frequently range all the way up to 22kHz, but as soon as the main portion of the track plays (which appeared on the 1997 OST), the very top frequencies suddenly drop down. Compare that to the "alternate" version of Hard to Starboard (previously unreleased) and check out the full frequency range across the whole track. Again, not sure what to make of it; I'm just visually comparing what I'm seeing.

 

 

807483491_HardtoStarboard(ALTERNATE).png

1767538966_HardtoStarboard(EXTENDED).png

1101915626_TakeHertoSea(ALTERNATE).png

388346396_TakeHertoSea.png

728162834_LeavingPort(ALTERNATEENDING).png

498229515_LeavingPort.png

563942135_Southampton(ALTERNATE).png

Southampton.png

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Those aren't cut offs, rather much heavier downsampling being applied to presumably Hi-Res files. Given our hearing goes up to 20 kHz at max, it's not uncommon (though much more prominent early on in the production of CDs) for the limit to be around that point instead of going up to 22-23 kHz as is the norm now.

 

As such, there is no proper loss of quality here. It's actually fairly frequent for quite a few LLL releases to be handled like this (though I haven't seen any examples from Intrada and Varese).

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi everyone. I wanted to confirm if the tracks on CD4 which are credited "arranged and conducted by William Ross" are also performed by I Salonisti. It sure sounds like it but it is not confirmed in the booklet credits. Thanks!

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  • 3 months later...

Ever since seeing the film again, I have been trying to make sense of "A Building Panic" and "Trapped on D Deck" and where the music contained on these tracks would have originally appeared in the film (before Cameron shuffled things around).

 

Am I correct in supposing that the LLL track "A Building Panic (Film Version)" contains several different cues within it? From what I have observed, this may be the correct order of cues (with corresponding events described):

 

- A Building Panic [1:08-4:17]: Imprisoned Jack shouts for help, Rose talks to Andrews, Rose takes the elevator, Rose finds Jack

- Rose Frees Jack: Rose alone in empty corridor, lights dim, Rose meets and punches talking officer, Rose finds axe (OR this track could play once Rose returns to the prison level with the axe and climbs/wades through the flooded corridor)

- A Building Panic [4:18-5:23]: Rose destroys Jack's handcuffs, corridor is too flooded to leave, above some lifeboats row away, Titanic sends up flare

- A Building Panic [0:00-1:08]: Lifeboats continue to be lowered, third-class brawl as gates are opened and then locked again, Tommy reunites with Jack and Rose

- A Building Panic [5:23-7:24]: Jack and Rose arrive at Lightoller's lifeboat, Hockley chooses not to board Murdoch's lifeboat, Ismay jumps into lifeboat and is lowered away

 

I'm also a little stumped by the LLL track "Trapped on D Deck". I assume the cue breakdown is as follows:

 

- Trapped on D Deck [0:00-1:48]: DELETED SCENE Lovejoy enters flooded dining room in search of Jack and Rose, Jack and Lovejoy fistfight, Jack smashes through locked doors

- Trapped on D Deck [1:48-4:03]: Jack and Rose hide as dining room floods, attempt to rescue screaming boy, corridor floods, Jack and Rose struggle to get to the stairwell

- Trapped on D Deck [4:04-6:22]: Jack and Rose trapped behind locked gate as water rises, frantic officer helps but fumbles keys, Jack manages to unlock gate just in time - I assume this cue was what Horner originally wrote for the scene but went unused, since I can't find anywhere else in the film where this music would fit

- Trapped on D Deck [6:23-8:45]: Jack and Rose trapped behind locked gate as water rises, frantic officer helps but fumbles keys, Jack manages to unlock gate just in time - I assume this cue is a revision of the previous one and is the one Cameron chose to use in the final film

 

I may be completely wrong on many of these, so please correct me if you have any extra information. I did my best to read through the early forum posts but don't recall finding any specific information about the breakdown of these longer tracks.

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1 hour ago, Trope said:

 DELETED SCENE Lovejoy enters flooded dining room in search of Jack and Rose, Jack and Lovejoy fistfight, Jack smashes through locked doors

That scene should have stayed in the film, as it explains why Lovejoy has blood all over his face.

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I am going to watch all the deleted scenes again because I remember that there was some great stuff in there. I found the commentary on YouTube as a separate audio track and Cameron had an anecdote about Horner in the scene right before Rose leaves the door. Horner's first idea was to use expressive strings but Cameron found it to be a bit too on the nose so they figured out a more subtle way of scoring it which is used in the final cut.

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3 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

Agreed. Was never confused or took issue with the shot of bloodied Lovejoy, even before I knew about that deleted scene.

 

By that stage we've seen plenty of violence during the sinking: people crushed to death by the funnels, hit in the face with oars, submerged in flooded decks, multiple people punched square in the face. Your brain connects the dots.

 

Including the shot also gives closure to his character and makes it clear he suffered an unpleasant demise, so I'm glad it wasn't cut.

 

Yes, this all makes sense and I do prefer it that way.

 

The only thing it doesn't explain is why Lovejoy and Hockley, after being so loyally attached, are suddenly separated once the latter has made his way back up to the boat deck and witnesses the shooting. It's not a massive deal but it would have been nice to see Lovejoy actually make the decision to abandon his employer and try to make it alone (since he was clearly getting fed up of him by the end).

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4 hours ago, LSH said:

 

Yes, this all makes sense and I do prefer it that way.

 

The only thing it doesn't explain is why Lovejoy and Hockley, after being so loyally attached, are suddenly separated once the latter has made his way back up to the boat deck and witnesses the shooting. It's not a massive deal but it would have been nice to see Lovejoy actually make the decision to abandon his employer and try to make it alone (since he was clearly getting fed up of him by the end).

What made you THINK you could put your hands on our relationship? LOOK at me when I'm talking to you, you filth!

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Thanks for pointing this out! Came back here to ask when it would be back.

 

I never got this set at the time because I was for whatever reason under the impression it was missing a lot of music, but I guess I misinterpreted that it just was missing the film edits (which makes sense not to have them since there would be so many, and not the original intentions). Also, I think I held off due to price (not complaining about it, just stating since it costs more I didn't want to shell it out at the time).

 

Just saw the movie again in 3D the other day. Not that I needed reminding how amazing both the film and score are, but it made me think back on getting this set again. Next month happens to also be my birthday month so I think I know what I'll treat myself with... ;)

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31 minutes ago, scallenger said:

Thanks for pointing this out! Came back here to ask when it would be back.

 

I never got this set at the time because I was for whatever reason under the impression it was missing a lot of music, but I guess I misinterpreted that it just was missing the film edits (which makes sense not to have them since there would be so many, and not the original intentions). Also, I think I held off due to price (not complaining about it, just stating since it costs more I didn't want to shell it out at the time).

 

Just saw the movie again in 3D the other day. Not that I needed reminding how amazing both the film and score are, but it made me think back on getting this set again. Next month happens to also be my birthday month so I think I know what I'll treat myself with... ;)

 

Definitely go for it. It showcases the entire score the way Horner recorded it. I think there are some interesting choices in the film edits (which are indeed not included), but ultimately, I too want to hear the composer's intentions. And the complete score flows really nicely. "2½ Miles Down" is a particularly hypnotic and evocative addition.

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1 hour ago, Marc said:

Definitely one of the most intense cues in film music history !
 

 

 

An intense cue for an intense scene. Really stuck with me since the recent re-watch.

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  • 3 weeks later...

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