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THE LAST JEDI - Score as heard in the movie thread - SPOILERS ALLOWED

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45 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I also seem to recall a near-quote of Anakin's Betrayal; and the return of the SATB choir and chu-daiko also shows the footprints of Revenge of the Sith, as well.

 

I would have been more okay with it if it were based on some other, more closely related scores in the Star Wars narrative. Sadly, Revenge of the Sith and these themes have nothing to do with this film.

 

 

 

Anakin's Betrayal is in The Last Jedi I believe.

It's telling that I can remember which tracks have the quotes of previous SW films, but I couldn't tell which tracks have the original TFA and TLJ motifs.

 

The question is: whose fault is it? I don't believe for one second that John freaking Williams was confused by the temp score. Yet, the temp dictated this score heavily. Temp score love on whose part? If Johnson did give Williams free hand, what made JW go so heavy on the temp? Was it too much? Was Johnson not satisfied by things Williams wrote, so Williams just said "to hell with it"?

It's pretty astounding.

 

To me it's funny that the same people who are so vocal about Williams' score being so "intricately woven" say that this Battle Of The Heroes quote, or others, are coincidences. They most definitely are not.

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3 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

 

Anakin's Betrayal is in The Last Jedi I believe.

It's telling that I can remember which tracks have the quotes of previous SW films, but I couldn't tell which tracks have the original TFA and TLJ motifs.

 

The question is: whose fault is it? I don't believe for one second that John freaking Williams was confused by the temp score. Yet, the temp dictated this score heavily. Temp score love on whose part? If Johnson did give Williams free hand, what made JW go so heavy on the temp? Was it too much? Was Johnson not satisfied by things Williams wrote, so Williams just said "to hell with it"?

It's pretty astounding.

 

To me it's funny that the same people who are so vocal about Williams' score being so "intricately woven" say that this Battle Of The Heroes quote, or others, are coincidences. They most definitely are not.

What crystal ball are you looking into that gives you insight into both the recording process and the inner workings of JW's mind? It's one thing to have opinions, it's another thing entirely to assume as fact things which you have no knowledge. That's the only thing I find astounding.

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1 minute ago, artguy360 said:

What crystal ball are you looking into that gives you insight into both the recording process and the inner workings of JW's mind? It's one thing to have opinions, it's another thing entirely to assume as fact things which you have no knowledge. That's the only thing I find astounding.

 

I didn't state anything as fact, I asked questions what happened. Jesus, learn to read and calm the fuck down.

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4 minutes ago, artguy360 said:

My comment is perfectly calm. You however come across as borderline unsound and fragile. We're discussing music and I don't believe your assumptions about the process of making this music relate to the actual music in the film.

 

No, why would the process of making the music relate to the actual music? That's a completely insane thought. LOL

 

You're passive aggressive and don't even realize it.

Again, assumptions are stated as factual. I don't assume, I ask what happened that the temp scored this film. Again, learn to read or stop whining.

Thank you.

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7 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

 

No, why would the process of making the music relate to the actual music? That's a completely insane thought. LOL

 

You're passive aggressive and don't even realize it.

Again, assumptions are stated as factual. I don't assume, I ask what happened that the temp scored this film. Again, learn to read or stop whining.

Thank you.

On the topic of reading, did you read the first sentence of your post before posting? 

 

I don't think there's anything passive aggressive about clearly and directly pointing out that your tone suggests an unreasonable emotional reaction. 

 

We're talking about music and you're assuming that the temp dictated the music and that passing musical similarities to past themes are intentional. I disagree with both assumptions.

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You're choosing the wrong hill to die on.

 

If you can't get that a question isn't an assumption, and that discussing the temp score of the movie, and why it ended up in the film, has everything to do with the music in the film, nobody can help you.

 

But since you obviously keep replying out of spite, because nobody is that thick, I'm ending the conversation at this point.

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2 hours ago, Demodex said:

 

Who are you talking about?

 

I believe he's referring to Poe and Rey. Their TLJ meeting was virtually identical to their TFA novelization meeting - which I guess is now retconned? 

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5 hours ago, ocelot said:

 

OMG that's not a rip off of the quidditch material, As long as you aren't copying the same exact notes bar in and bar out.

 

But that's the thing, in the link I gave, he DOES quote the Quidditch version almost verbatim, although only once and for a very short time.

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3 hours ago, someonefun124 said:

@ocelot Holdo's theme is also at :25 in Chrome Dome if you didn't already know.

 

 

It's a great, powerful brass motif that leaves a pretty strong impression on me now but one that I literally did not notice even once while watching the film. Now I'm really hoping we get the FYC album and that it features this Holdo/desperation motif more than the OST does.

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8 hours ago, gkgyver said:

 

Anakin's Betrayal is in The Last Jedi I believe.

It's telling that I can remember which tracks have the quotes of previous SW films, but I couldn't tell which tracks have the original TFA and TLJ motifs.

 

The question is: whose fault is it? I don't believe for one second that John freaking Williams was confused by the temp score. Yet, the temp dictated this score heavily. Temp score love on whose part? If Johnson did give Williams free hand, what made JW go so heavy on the temp? Was it too much? Was Johnson not satisfied by things Williams wrote, so Williams just said "to hell with it"?

It's pretty astounding.

 

To me it's funny that the same people who are so vocal about Williams' score being so "intricately woven" say that this Battle Of The Heroes quote, or others, are coincidences. They most definitely are not.

 

Johnson said he gave free reign to Williams to compose, but we don't know how he reacted upon hearing the music on the stage, and since the scoring process was spread-out over a long period of time, that still leaves the option for major changes being requested by Johnson, to bring the music closer to his temp track choice.

 

Its also evident from stuff like Johnson's discarding of the new recording of the opening title in favor of The Force Awakens opening.

 

Whatever the reason, the score suffers for it.

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Escape is a great album opener and probably the best example in this OST of modern JW action music that is scored closely to the on screen action while also focusing on drama more than mickey mousing, but the first half or so of the track sounds a little incoherent and herky jerky which may be down to the album edit.  

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The “BotH moment” works so beautifully in the movie, and if you look closely it doesn’t really quote it - the melody starts on the third of the scale, instead on the root and then goes in different directions anyway. I didn’t realize the resemblance until it was pointed out here.

 

And I have said this before, but the fact that we can now detect some of the temp-track doesn’t detract anything from the quality of the music itself!!! It’s nothing new for JW or SW music. The difference now is that we’re so overly familiar with the SW scores instead of the classical repertoire that was used as temp before. 

 

Also: @Chen G. Why do you think that the dramatic tone of RotS is unfitting for the dramatic scenes here? In the end, the score is still an extension of TFA musically so I don’t get your point exactly.

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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Its also evident from stuff like Johnson's discarding of the new recording of the opening title in favor of The Force Awakens opening.

 

Rubbish. This is one beef you are attributing unfairly to Rian. It's become patently clear, especially after his comments in that podcast, that Rian is under the impression they used a new recording of Main Title. Something's clearly gone awry here; either the temp track was used by mistake or someone in the music department insisted on reusing the TFA version (with or without Rian's knowledge).

 

To state that Rian went rogue and "discarded" the new Main Title is ludicrous considering the information we have. Why on earth would Johnson overrule the composer for such a thing? And even if he did, Williams was free to use the new recording on the OST... which he didn't.

 

25 minutes ago, Remco said:

The “BotH moment” works so beautifully in the movie, and if you look closely it doesn’t really quote it - the melody starts on the third of the scale, instead on the root and then goes in different directions anyway. I didn’t realize the resemblance until it was pointed out here.

 

Exactly. Similar in the way Luke & Leia is similar to existing themes but ultimately its own thing.

 

It's not quoting Battle of the Heroes at all. It just shares a similar melodic structure for its first 4 or 5 notes. Blaming this on temp-track overload makes no sense either; BOTH doesn't even fit as temp for that sequence.

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Who said its a quote? its a near-quote. Anyone who knows his Revenge of the Sith well with recall Battle of the Heroes at that moment. And watching Episode 8, this flashback  to episode 3 is wildly inappropriate from a narrative standpoint.

 

If you recall, what were the first impressions of the score from preview audience? "sounds like ROTS."

 

28 minutes ago, Remco said:

In the end, the score is still an extension of TFA musically so I don’t get your point exactly.

 

Each Star Wars score has always been its own thing, interconnected with the other scores. To find excuses for this album's lack of identity in it being "an extension of The Force Awakens" is just that - making excuses.

 

If it were the third film I would have been more inclined to accept this excuse, because of the concluding nature of the score, but here, it doesn't work.

 

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What serves the score well as its primary role (i.e. to play against the pictures rather than on an isolated album), is the superior mix. Leitmotives are meant to be heard against visuals, so that acquire associations and weight. That didn't happen for me in The Force Awakens, and it does here.

 

But thematically, even in the movie, there is a lot of recurring material and, again, often in very familiar renditions.

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Something I realized about that “Luke and Leia” theme moment - it’s the first and only time the actual original theme appears in a film.  When it was used in ROTJ when Luke reveals to Leia that they’re siblings, Williams sped up the second half of the theme for some reason.  It was nice to hear the full theme breathe in a scene.

 

Also, I recall hearing a quote of the first part of the theme in an earlier scene in the movie... anyone remember?

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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Who said its a quote? its a near-quote. Anyone who knows his Revenge of the Sith well with recall Battle of the Heroes at that moment. And watching Episode 8, this flashback  to episode 3 is wildly inappropriate from a narrative standpoint.

 

If you recall, what were the first impressions of the score from preview audience? "sounds like ROTS."

 

 

Each Star Wars score has always been its own thing, interconnected with the other scores. To find excuses for this album's lack of identity in it being "an extension of The Force Awakens" is just that - making excuses.

 

If it were the third film I would have been more inclined to accept this excuse, because of the concluding nature of the score, but here, it doesn't work.

 

 

No that’s not what I meant. You keep talking about how it doesn’t narratively make sense that the score sounds like RotS, but my point is that it sounds mostly like a musical extension of TFA (with some of the RotS drama). Which makes perfect sense if you’re all about ‘narrative standpoint’.

 

Also, RotS was probably included in the temp because RJ wanted some of that kind of musical drama - NOT because anything is supposed to be a callback to EpIII itself.

 

If anything, you are finding excuses to devalue the score yourself. It’s fine if you don’t like it, but I just don’t get some of your arguments.

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2 minutes ago, Remco said:

Also, RotS was probably included in the temp because RJ wanted some of that kind of musical drama - NOT because anything is supposed to be a callback to EpIII itself.

 

Of course that's what he wanted, but we ended up with more than that. When I hear that moment in the music, it takes me back to Mustafar for a split-second.

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Well, fair enough. I’m with crumbs though, I thought it worked perfect for that scene and I was also just so happy to see the music carrying the scene so prominently. There weren’t many moments like that in TFA.

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2 minutes ago, Remco said:

I was also just so happy to see the music carrying the scene so prominently. There weren’t many moments like that in TFA.

 

That much is very true. For that alone I might like this score more than The Force Awakens.

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On 12/20/2017 at 12:14 PM, artguy360 said:

Does anyone else think JW might be exploring a new stylistic approach to scoring big, dramatic, climatic scenes in Star Wars? Listening to TFA and TLJ I notice a similarity in how JW scores the big moments in the 3rd act of each film. Consider Torn Apart and the build up to Kylo Ren killing Han, The Spark as Luke walks out to confront Kylo Ren/ the First Order, and The Last Jedi with whatever is happening on screen as the second half of the track finishes. Without any musical terminology to guide me, all three have non-thematic music with a very clear use of repeated string figures over the top of building brass. Specifically it's the non-thematic part, the use of strings, and the focus on rhythm instead of melody that I find so interesting. I know JW has written similar music before, but I've never heard this approach used so consistently for similarly climatic scenes and never like this in a SW score.

 

Here are the moments in question, from TFA:

 

And during The Spark from TLJ:

 

And from TLJ:

 

So what do y'all think? Is there an interesting similarity across all three that might be of note? Or am I just losing my mind?

well first of all, you have some knowledge of music. You at least name the sections of the orchestra, you should hear how others put it, lol.

Yes they have some sort of similarity in use, but he does it with the whole orchestra as well in other scores. He's always done it to some degree and I love how he always does it a little differently... :)

10 hours ago, someonefun124 said:

@ocelot Holdo's theme is also at :25 in Chrome Dome if you didn't already know.

 

 

Yup Yup, that's when she actually flies the ship into the Destroyer to defend them :)

2 hours ago, crumbs said:

It's the best mixed JW score since, what, the 90s? Say what you want about the reused music, but Rian clearly treated that score with absolute reverence.

 

More than can be said for JJ on TFA, where the score is microedited to within an inch of its life, and mixed so low you can barely hear it. Say what you will about the treatment of his prequel scores got, but at least Kenny Wannberg fought for its presence in the mix.

Also JJ or someone decided to try and hide the woodwind writing, which annoyed me. It's in the score! Why can't I hear it like I'm supposed to?!

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5 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Johnson said he gave free reign to Williams to compose, but we don't know how he reacted upon hearing the music on the stage, and since the scoring process was spread-out over a long period of time, that still leaves the option for major changes being requested by Johnson, to bring the music closer to his temp track choice.

 

Its also evident from stuff like Johnson's discarding of the new recording of the opening title in favor of The Force Awakens opening.

 

Whatever the reason, the score suffers for it.

 

Is that in any way confirmed, that a new main title cue was recorded, but dropped in favor of TFA? 

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16 hours ago, p0llux said:

 

It's in track 1 "Escape". In the film, it's when Rose's sister finally drops the bombs onto the Dreadnought. I personally think it's just coincidence. Why would that theme make any sense there? We'll never know the truth.

 

I still think it's possible this is an introductory variant of Holdo's theme (or the "Resistance desperation" theme, as some were calling it—as Holdo hasn't yet been introduced yet).

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The Anakin's Betrayal stuff is in The Last Jedi 1:00-1:30, and the fanfare concluding Anakin's Dark Deeds is in the same track from 2:35 until the end.

The latter sticks out more than the former.

 

I cringe every time someone calls this, or the BotH quote, "coincidence". I just can't ...

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16 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

If he remembered Luke and Leia or TIE-Fight attack, he will have remembered Battle of the Heroes, and again it was likely in Johnson's temp-track, so I don't think memory is an issue here.

 

But if it was in the temp, it can't be coincidence.

Hence my question asked earlier: who or what was the deciding factor for Williams bringing the temp into the actual score? 

It's clear that some things, like the direct lifts from Yoda's and Leia's concert suites, and TIE Fighter Attack, were intended as clear, direct recycling, while with other things, Williams was clearly trying to alter it in order to NOT sound too much like the temp. Whose decision was it? Or what lead to it?

 

There are pretty much just 4 options:

 

1. John Williams decided to make ample use of the temp track 

2. Rian Johnson told him to use part of the temp verbatim

3. Williams wrote something, then Johnson requested something more similar to the temp

4. Both agreed to recycle old music in the first place 

 

I can't see Williams intentionally quasi re-recording temp score on his own volition.

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1 minute ago, karelm said:

 

5. Rain provided a temp track and JW decided if, when, and how he would follow it allowing for creative liberties and in some cases JW ignoring it.  <- This is what happened.

Rain Rain, go away, come again another day!

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2 hours ago, gkgyver said:

The Anakin's Betrayal stuff is in The Last Jedi 1:00-1:30, and the fanfare concluding Anakin's Dark Deeds is in the same track from 2:35 until the end.

The latter sticks out more than the former.

 

I cringe every time someone calls this, or the BotH quote, "coincidence". I just can't ...

 

I hear the similarities. But again, we'll never know if that was intentional or not. We can only speculate. Truly wonderful, the mind of a JW is. And even if it turns out it was intentional, I'm not gonna stress out over it.

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