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SPOILER TALK - The Last Jedi (open spoilers allowed!!!)

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On 16/12/2017 at 4:00 PM, Quintus said:

See, when I learn a movie has a big twist, nine times out of ten my brain's logic inevitability and annoyingly figures out what it is before I see the film, it's one of the reasons I try to stay dark these days and actually pay almost zero attention to movie journalism surrounding a film I might be interested in. I was well wide of the mark on this occasion though (typical!), and for me it's because they didn't have the guts to aim for something quite so strikingly unexpected. It's just another predicable SW movie after all. 

But.... If you can logically deduce the twist in advance, is it still a very good twist?

Ren killing Leia might be shocking, but at this point I think not having that is a bigger twist still.

In fact, not having a twist can these days be the biggest twist of all.

(Have I twisted my logic yet...? :lol: )

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3 minutes ago, Pieter_Boelen said:

But.... If you can logically deduce the twist in advance, is it still a very good twist?

Ren killing Leia might be shocking, but at this point I think not having the is a bigger twist still.

In fact, not having a twist can these days be the biggest twist of all.

(Have I twisted my logic yet...? :lol: )

 

True, from a certain point of view.

 

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29 minutes ago, karelm said:

You know what would be cool?  If Kylo Ren was the reason that Leia survived being blasted into space rather than Leia using the force.  Palpatine tells Anakin "To cheat death is a power only one has achieved through centuries of the study of the Force" and something that cannot be learned from the jedi so it is a dark force skill that results in Leia's reincarnation.  Since Kylo showed compassion towards his mom's death and is very skilled in the force, he resurrected her.

 

Nah this new trilogy isn't smart enough for that. Johnson just wanted another subverted plot device. "I'll keep them on their toes." He said.

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I agree with Blume - they ruined Poe's character in this film.  Of course, they ruined Finn and of course Luke and Leia too.  I guess Rey is kind of still herself, but she didn't actually have a lot to do.

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3 minutes ago, Jay said:

I agree with Blume - they ruined Poe's character in this film.  Of course, they ruined Finn and of course Luke and Leia too.  I guess Rey is kind of still herself, but she didn't actually have a lot to do.

 

I don't think they ruined Leia, but they pretty much ruined everyone else and the mythology along with it.  But at least we got blue breast milk and roasted Porg!

 

If you feel this way, why do you prefer this over TFA and Rogue One?

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15 minutes ago, Bespin said:

Man, can we get more positive and perhaps concentrate on the characters Rian Johnson did not ruin?

 

By example, euh... that... guy... ah I know, that boy at the end of the movie!

 

I think he handled Kylo well. The overall Rey/Ren dynamic was the main strength of the film. Daisy is good, but Adam was the stand out of the film by far.

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32 minutes ago, Bespin said:

Man, can we get more positive and perhaps concentrate on the characters Rian Johnson did not ruin?

 

By example, euh... that... guy... ah I know, that boy at the end of the movie!

 

That character was ruined because his oppressors were NOT the first order but immoral capitalists meanwhile he is inspired by the resistance who are complicit in funding his oppressors. 

47 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

 

Nah this new trilogy isn't smart enough for that. Johnson just wanted another subverted plot device. "I'll keep them on their toes." He said.

Probably right.

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34 minutes ago, Jay said:

I guess Rey is kind of still herself, but she didn't actually have a lot to do.

 

Thinking about it you're right. Her believing that she could turn Kylo and not putting two and two together when he kills Snoke comes off as very naive.

 

Also, her arc is complete by the midpoint so the actual climax almost doesn't feature her at all. All she does is lift some rocks at the end.

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Well, after reflecting on this movie for a week, I have come to the conclusion that I hate it.  The battle/action scenes are good, the score is powerful, but the movie pisses away all the setup of VII (and by extension the previous movies).  What a shame. 

 

I wouldn't even mind if IX began with Luke recovering from a force vision of the "future" what turned out to be VIII. 

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1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

Also, her arc is complete by the midpoint so the actual climax almost doesn't feature her at all. All she does is lift some rocks at the end.

 

Which was ok if you don't mind bad ass Luke hadn't done anything force wise up to that point and was the main point at the end.

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10 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

 

I think he handled Kylo well. The overall Rey/Ren dynamic was the main strength of the film. Daisy is good, but Adam was the stand out of the film by far.

 

So many thoughts about this film that I am still processing - but for me I agree with you, the standout element that blew me away was Rey/Ren and their Force connection (Driver is fantastic and I have been defending Kylo Ren as a character since TFA - I feel like more people are finally coming round to my point of view with this, he is the strength of this whole trilogy and not just an emo joke!). 

That said...

Two things bug me. No 1 is the fact that it is Snoke who set up these Force-Skyping sessions. On the one hand, this builds Snoke up to be amazingly powerful (more powerful than Luke Skywalker, who dies upon using a similar projection power only for himself). On the other hand - then you just murder Snoke and so the whole reason for the connection is just this villain that Johnson obviously wasn't interested in. So he makes Snoke the cause of this mystical connection and then takes Snoke away, meaning that there was very little Force-mystical-interest in the Force Skyping after all. I thought it was building to something more plot-relevant than that.

 

Second thing that bugs me: Rey should have taken Kylo Ren's hand at the end. Johnson creates this amazing scene where they fight together against the Praetorian guards and it is easily one of the best scenes in the film. And then he chickens out. Imagine a different version of TLJ in which Johnson didn't feel the need to bump off Luke Skywalker at the end - imagine instead Rey takes Kylo Ren's hand and we end with an exhilarating, ambiguous scene of these two young people coming together to try and rule the galaxy - will Rey ensure that Ren rules in the name of the light side of the Force, or will he pull her into the dark? Who knows! But JJ Abrams would have a hell of a lot more to work with and we would have left the cinema intrigued and with the promise of Luke Skywalker there to help figure it all out. Plus...you know...this would have actually taken Rey's journey in the film to an interesting place, Kylo's too. It would have taken us into possible grey Jedi territory. It would have subverted Johnson's infuriating habit of taking something Abrams or himself has created, and just dropping it for the sake of dropping it because SUBVERSION. Real subversion would actually involve following through on things, not dropping every single thing for lack of interest or for the sake of it....

 

Okay I'm going on too long. There are things I really like about this film. But in most cases they are things that get dropped and it is so frustrating.

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13 minutes ago, idril said:

 

So many thoughts about this film that I am still processing - but for me I agree with you, the standout element that blew me away was Rey/Ren and their Force connection (Driver is fantastic and I have been defending Kylo Ren as a character since TFA - I feel like more people are finally coming round to my point of view with this, he is the strength of this whole trilogy and not just an emo joke!). 

That said...

Two things bug me. No 1 is the fact that it is Snoke who set up these Force-Skyping sessions. On the one hand, this builds Snoke up to be amazingly powerful (more powerful than Luke Skywalker, who dies upon using a similar projection power only for himself). On the other hand - then you just murder Snoke and so the whole reason for the connection is just this villain that Johnson obviously wasn't interested in. So he makes Snoke the cause of this mystical connection and then takes Snoke away, meaning that there was very little Force-mystical-interest in the Force Skyping after all. I thought it was building to something more plot-relevant than that.

 

Second thing that bugs me: Rey should have taken Kylo Ren's hand at the end. Johnson creates this amazing scene where they fight together against the Praetorian guards and it is easily one of the best scenes in the film. And then he chickens out. Imagine a different version of TLJ in which Johnson didn't feel the need to bump off Luke Skywalker at the end - imagine instead Rey takes Kylo Ren's hand and we end with an exhilarating, ambiguous scene of these two young people coming together to try and rule the galaxy - will Rey ensure that Ren rules in the name of the light side of the Force, or will he pull her into the dark? Who knows! But JJ Abrams would have a hell of a lot more to work with and we would have left the cinema intrigued and with the promise of Luke Skywalker there to help figure it all out. Plus...you know...this would have actually taken Rey's journey in the film to an interesting place, Kylo's too. It would have taken us into possible grey Jedi territory. It would have subverted Johnson's infuriating habit of taking something Abrams or himself has created, and just dropping it for the sake of dropping it because SUBVERSION. Real subversion would actually involve following through on things, not dropping every single thing for lack of interest or for the sake of it....

 

Okay I'm going on too long. There are things I really like about this film. But in most cases they are things that get dropped and it is so frustrating.

 

Kylo Ren's character and acting in TLJ were better than TFA.  He does not come across as a winy guy now but as someone truly conflicted.  Both he and Rey are more powerful than they know.  Imagine them as students with formidable raw talent.  Talent that was underestimated by Snoke in his overconfidence.  So I see it that Luke doesn't die from force skyping but from fighting all in a formidable adversary and preventing him from detecting the skype to the point of self depletion.  Basically it took all he had to do this and not be detected.

 

Your second point, that would have been very gutsy.  I think it is just not true to her character.  Remember tyranny is not the jedi way.  First and foremost, the characters have to be true to themselves and this would have been out of character to her.  I think this is the crux of the fan backlash is Luke was doing things that were out of his character. 

 

I did think the Admiral was a very dull character.  Leia should have been the one to make that move giving her a great and powerful send off.  I am ok with Luke's death and cause for it because it was very much in keeping with the final level of a jedi where they become one with the force and in an ultimate act of self sacrifice.

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40 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

If you feel this way, why do you prefer this over TFA and Rogue One?

 

On 12/15/2017 at 12:51 PM, Jay said:

All three are mediocre 2/5 or 3/5 movies, but I'd say The Last Jedi is the most interesting of the bunch

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4 minutes ago, karelm said:

 

Kylo Ren's character and acting in TLJ were better than TFA.  He does not come across as a winy guy now but as someone truly conflicted.  Both he and Rey are more powerful than they know.  Imagine them as students with formidable raw talent.  Talent that was underestimated by Snoke in his overconfidence.  So I see it that Luke doesn't die from force skyping but from fighting all in a formidable adversary and preventing him from detecting the skype to the point of self depletion.  Basically it took all he had to do this and not be detected.

 

Your second point, that would have been very gutsy.  I think it is just not true to her character.  Remember tyranny is not the jedi way. 

 

I did think the Admiral was a very dull character.  Leia should have been the one to make that move giving her a great and powerful send off.  I am ok with Luke's death and cause for it because it was very much in keeping with the final level of a jedi where they become one with the force and in an ultimate act of self sacrifice.

 

I agree that it would have been gutsy to have Rey take his hand. I also agree that it wouldn't necessarily have made sense for her character in that moment the way that Johnson led up to it - but he could have created a narrative in which it felt just a little more naturalistic for Rey to take his hand, where she trusted that they could really make a difference. And she would not have needed to believe that it would lead to tyranny, which of course wouldn't be the Jedi way. She may have believed that she and Kylo could rebuild the Jedi Order in a positive way and turn the First Order into a force for good. To continue playing with the tension between Rey and Kylo Ren would have set up something far more interesting for Episode IX to me than to just move them straight back into TotalGood and TotalEvil battle. That's fine, but we have seen it already many times and it could have been a little more complex and interesting in my view.

 

As for the Admiral - you're right that should have been Leia. And no doubt if they'd known that Carrie was going to pass away, it would have been. But by the time that happened, I think it was too late to reform that storyline to make it Leia. It's a shame because it would have been the perfect send off and I fear we won't get that now with the limited footage available to them for Episode IX..

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54 minutes ago, Jay said:

I agree with Blume - they ruined Poe's character in this film.  Of course, they ruined Finn and of course Luke and Leia too.  I guess Rey is kind of still herself, but she didn't actually have a lot to do.

 

I found Rey to be less charming and likable in this one compared to her portrayal in TFA.

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4 minutes ago, someonefun124 said:

I found Rey to be less charming and likable in this one compared to her portrayal in TFA.

 

Oh, so as soon as a woman stops being "charming" and "likeable" and instead is conflicted and assertive you feel threatened.  Canto Bightian sexist!

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Maz is awful. So happy Johnson got rid of her for TLJ. 

 

When I say TFA has the strongest characters of the recent 3, I mean mostly in their overall execution. The characters were more focused and given more time. I love Rogue One. It's my favourite of the 3 by a long way, but I acknowledge the difficulties of such an ensemble cast and thus the characters suffer as a result. 

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Despite Rogue One calling itself a Star Wars movie. Its not. 

 

They did not ruin Poe Dameron's character. He was taught a valuable lesson. It was a great arc. He will be a better character as he leads the rebellion as General  in Star Wars IX. 

 

Maz will be a great character in the last film

 

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4 minutes ago, JoeinAR said:

 

They did not ruin Poe Dameron's character. He was taught a valuable lesson. It was a great arc. He will be a better character as he leads the rebellion as General  in Star Wars IX. 

 

 

It was the most un-Star Wars arc. Star Wars has always been about subverting the behind the desk bureaucracy in favor of heroes who dive into the action, take risks, and suffer the consequences. 

 

This message was "STFU you petulant daredevil and trust the bureaucracy and their secret plans!" 

 

At least Holdo had the heroic decency to sacrifice herself at the end. But the ultimate message: shut up and trust the bureaucrats and their secrets is just not a Star Wars message. 

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I mostly watch these new Star Wars films for the action, like a child screaming "More lightsabers!" Because with characters and motivations and new plots, Star Wars is dead. Has been dead for years. It is stagnant. It cannot go anywhere because the galaxy far far away is so small small. There is no expansion in these films. Even the new stuff feels old. Rogue Ones battles, especially the final battle was in my opinion the best space battle ever put on film. And I did fanboy out massively in that Vader scene. THAT's what I see Star Wars for. If I want compelling characters, I'll watch the original trilogy.

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5 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

Maz is awful. So happy Johnson got rid of her for TLJ. 

 

 

Aw man, I like Maz a lot and really enjoyed her cameo in TLJ!

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Well, her cameo in TLJ was funny, I thought.  In TFA, I liked the way she took of her glasses to inspect Finn and saw right through him, and the general fact that she seems to have force abilities and a lot of knowledge.  Of course, it seems JJ or whoever couldn't fully make up their minds about exactly how to integrate her into TFA's plot and that section of the film is pretty weak, but the character I think can be salvaged into something useful for the final movie in the trilogy.

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She was clearly meant to be this trilogy's yoda, but she just annoyed me. Another CGI character that's there for gags. 

 

If you look at her character, she contributed nothing. 

 

Rey found the lightsaber on her own. Maz got it yes, but never said how so it doesn't matter. She didn't help in any way. She gave no information at all that was useful to the characters or plot. And in TLJ, she just took place in a scene that could only be described as a video game clip.

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7 hours ago, Brónach said:

 

It's classic wuxia. Space wuxia!

 

 

I can't get this film out of my head. It's gorgeous.

 

Visually it's easily one of the strongest Star Wars films. I was stunned several points by the effects in my theater. Impressive. 

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50 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

 

It was the most un-Star Wars arc. Star Wars has always been about subverting the behind the desk bureaucracy in favor of heroes who dive into the action, take risks, and suffer the consequences. 

 

This message was "STFU you petulant daredevil and trust the bureaucracy and their secret plans!" 

 

At least Holdo had the heroic decency to sacrifice herself at the end. But the ultimate message: shut up and trust the bureaucrats and their secrets is just not a Star Wars message. 

 

What bureacracy? She's a battlefield tactician. They say it in the film.

 

Of course it's an un-Star Wars arc. The movie works on a massive decon-recon switch that's a bit hard to stomach. It's a matter of taste, I guess.

 

I think most of my problems with this film have more to do with the previous film and it's weird.

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56 minutes ago, JoeinAR said:

They did not ruin Poe Dameron's character. He was taught a valuable lesson. It was a great arc. He will be a better character as he leads the rebellion as General  in Star Wars IX. 

 

Yes, blind obedience to authority is always a valuable lesson that we all should learn. 

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Canto Bight would have been a great place to bring Lando back into the fold. I picture him retiring and becoming a player at the casinos.

 

With his wealth he could have been a backup plan for Leia if things went bad, and they did. 

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