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SPOILER TALK - The Last Jedi (open spoilers allowed!!!)

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3 minutes ago, El Jefe said:

Canto Bight would have been a great place to bring Lando back into the fold. I picture him retiring and becoming a player at the casinos.

 

With his wealth he could have been a backup plan for Leia if things went bad, and they did. 

This would have been awesome!

Why the hell are they forgetting about Lando? I know he will be in the Solo movie but what about Billy Dee Williams? He's not getting any younger and this would have been a great opportunity to see him back. JJ needs to get on the phone to hook him for the third quick-smart.

 

Edit: Okay so I found this quote from Johnson:

“I don’t think you would ever buy that Lando would just completely betray the characters like that and have that level of moral ambiguity. Cause we love Lando and you’d come into it with that [expectation]. And also, DJ, the character that they met, for the purposes of Finn’s character, had to be a morally ambiguous character that you’re not sure about, that you’re guessing about, and we already know that we love the character of Lando so it just wouldn’t have played in that part story-wise.”

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And the whole Holdo. Basically she’s like FU, I’m not telling anyone shit.

 

A true leader would have gathered the troops and said, “we are in the vacinity of an old rebel base on crait and our plan is to make a run for that planet.”

 

Plus she just sit there and stares while the rebel transports are picked off one by one. 

 

As soon as the last transport left and the FO started firing I almost jumped out my seat in the theatre and started to scream at the screen. “TURN THE @&$%*!! SHIP AROUND AND RAM THEM!!

 

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I said it before and I'll say it again; they should have bloody killed Finn when they had the chance. Still annoyed by that great sacrificing buildup with Williams giving it full emotional weight, and giving his character actually something to do, and then boom, the pointless Rose character got in the way, just like she did for the rest of the film.

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2 minutes ago, El Jefe said:

And she utters one of the dumbest lines.

 

She delivers most of the worst lines. Including "now it was worth it" 

 

Well at least they freed some enslaved space horses, but fuck those enslaved kids that look after them aye Rose. 

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22 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

I said it before and I'll say it again; they should have bloody killed Finn when they had the chance. Still annoyed by that great sacrificing buildup with Williams giving it full emotional weight, and giving his character actually something to do, and then boom, the pointless Rose character got in the way, just like she did for the rest of the film.

 

 

Like I mentioned earlier, Finn became useless in this film. He damn near single handidly destroys the resistance with his and Roses idiotic decisions. 

 

Imagine if he did die and the rage Rey might carry over to the next film. That would have been something to build on. 

 

But it we had to have a reunion between those two and set up another possible  chemistry less love affair, like the prequels, between him and Rose.

 

I’d laugh if JJ kills Rose off in the first several minutes of Episode 9

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Finally, what's the meaning of "The Last Jedi" title.

 

Is it only refering to Luke?

 

Can Ben Solo be counted as one of the last Jedi? Is Rey enough trained to be considered a "Jedi" (as Luke was a kind of "Jedi", at least a Padawan, after Yoda's Jedi 101 lessons)?

 

Remember that in French (in german) too, the title of the movie implies that Jedi is plural.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

Yoda is more powerful than ever it seems and can control the elements. No idea why he or Obi Wan can't just kill Kylo with ease. Or Vader can just come back and say "dude, stop."

 

Finally, you never understood the thing about the "balance" of the Force, did'nt you?

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I don't ask how it sounds, I ask, if Disney accepted that "Jedi" is plural in foreign movie titles, so who are those Jedi.

 

- Kylo Ren has been formed as a Jedi after all and I don't think he as turn to the Dark Side definitely, it's still reversible.

- Rey has been formed, at least for being a Padawan (and she stole the Jedi Sacred Texts... damn scavenger).

- And there are still the Force ghosts of Yoda and Luke.

 

That's a lot of "last" Jedi.

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2 hours ago, Tom said:

Yes, blind obedience to authority is always a valuable lesson that we all should learn. 

 

He would have been told the plan hadn't he been a distrustful ass.

 

On the other hand, if he wasn't a suicidal maverick at the begining, they would all be dead because the Dreadnought would destroy them after the first jump. So it's an interesting mess about failure leading to failure.

 

I really like Holdo's character design. It sets her apart from Poe almost inmediately and made me curious about the character than the amount of stuff we actually got. Her plotline runs on two tired military tropes, but heh.

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16 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

TLJ is a film about a load of people failing, and in the end Luke shows up and saves their asses!

 

Technically, Luke is the protagonist of this film: he has the biggest arc, and his accompanies the story from the beginning (minus the opening action sequence) to the end, and the title refers to him.

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So was Leia dead?  And if she was dead, who brought her back?  Isn't bringing someone back from the dead supposed to be the ultimate Sith/Dark Side power?

 

Just now, BloodBoal said:

 

Originally, I was one of those who would have liked Finn to die there, too, but after thinking about it, I understand now why they didn't do it: given you have Luke's death a few minutes after that, they probably wanted it to be THE big emotional moment of the climax and didn't want it diminshed/ruined by another death scene prior to it.

 

 

I was thinking the same. I really wanted him to die in that scene. Not because I hate the character (I'm ambivalent about him), but because it felt like the right thing to happen in that moment. But as you say, it would have completely undercut the tone of the rest of the film, including Luke's sacrifice. Plus Boyega is signed up for three films, so there's that.

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12 hours ago, publicist said:

 

It's one thing to feel proprietary about a movie character, another to enslave him. How much leeway does a writer have when that kind of narrow-minded fans hover over his back? 

 

The writer can do as he/she pleases, but will have to deal with the backlash, especially with a franchise and character as beloved as this. You may call me narrow-minded, but I miss the idealistic Luke from the OT. It's the same reason I can't abide the Zack Snyder Superman, it's just not the character I grew up with.

 

Mark Hamill seems to feel the same way:

 

“I said to Rian, I said, ‘Jedi's don’t give up’. Even if he had a problem, he would maybe take a year to try and regroup."

 

“But if he made a mistake, he would try and right that wrong, so right there, we had a fundamental difference.”

 

“That’s the crux of my problem. Luke would never say that. I’m sorry.”

 

"So I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he’s ‘Jake Skywalker,’ he’s not my Luke Skywalker."

 

“But I had to do what Rian wanted me to do because it serves the story well, but I still haven’t accepted it completely.”


http://www.nme.com/news/film/mark-hamill-luke-skywalker-star-wars-last-jedi-2185571

 

I'm happy for those that like this film and it's handling of the legacy characters. Unfortunately, I am not one of them. I was so looking forward to this, and I'm really disappointed in the approach taken. I can honestly say that I very much doubt I'll be revisiting this film ever again, I just feel so indifferent towards it. There are aspects I do like, but the whole just feels so...off.

 

I'm not a fan of the prequels, in fact I haven't revisited those films since 2005, but they still feel more like Star Wars to me than this does.

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Quote

 

'Last Jedi' Grosses Are Collapsing With The Worst Daily Holds Of All 9 Star Wars Movies

Now that the initial weekend flush is behind it, that hot period when pretty much anything that had the Star Wars name on it could have earned $500 million worldwide, audience fervor for Star Wars: The Last Jedi has cooled off like a chilly winter evening on planet Hoth.

In North America, daily holds for the Rian Johnson-directed flick have been significantly worse than those experienced by Rogue One: A Star Wars Story, and if the pattern continues The Last Jedi could actually wind up doing not much better than the 2016 spin-off movie.

 

 

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1 hour ago, BloodBoal said:

Fuck knows. Apparently, he and Snoke can't even be counted as Sith, because... Fuck knows. I thought all Force-users on the Dark Side were Sith, but apparently not. What's the difference between Snoke/Kylo and the Sith? I don't know. I guess it's explained in a book...

 

Originally the Sith design a "race" of (now extinct) people. Then it turned to be a sort of "religion" for the Dark side users, like the "Jedi" order is also a religion, for the light side users.

 

The last Sith was Vader. As Palpatine and Vader followed the rule of two, there never was a new apprentice, so there's no more Sith.  We can say that the Sith are really extinct.

 

Kylo Ren and Rey are the last living Jedi to have received a teaching by a Jedi, but it's a religion, and they obviously don't follow it, as they don't have too.  That's a little bit the message of Luke in the movie.

 

And in fact, they both use a kind of Force that is flirting dangerously between the dark and light side.

 

At the end, they will chose the right side. ;)

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I think the Sith are fantastic but the rule of two has always felt a bit limiting to me. That's why I was so excited about the idea of the 'Knights of Ren' from TFA but I guess Rian Johnson wasn't so excited about that...

 

I am keeping an eye on those rather interesting box office numbers. I wonder if this is due to hardcore fans not wanting to see this film twice? Repeat viewings definitely propelled TFA to its lofty heights.

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5 minutes ago, idril said:

I think the Sith are fantastic but the rule of two has always felt a bit limiting to me.

 

Well before this rule, they always tried to kill each others, and that went so wrong one time between two factions, that the Sith almost disapeared.

 

The Rule of two was a way for the Sith to survive.

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Just now, Bespin said:

 

Well before this rule, they always tried to kill each others, and that went so wrong one time between two factions, that the Sith almost disapeared.

 

The Rule of two was a way for the Sith to survive.

 

Yeah it is a good backstory. I guess it's just a question of - what about the rest of the people who use the Dark Side of the Force? What does one call them?

But then maybe this is the whole problem with the new trilogy - Kylo isn't a Sith, Rey isn't a Jedi - they have new names for the Rebels and Empire but not for these two very crucial groups!

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On 13/12/2017 at 6:06 PM, Stefancos said:

 

Super rushed? Luke dying was telegraphed pretty mucb throughout the film. It makes thematic sense. Like Yoda's death in ROTJ

 

He says he went there to die, Ren introduces the projection idea and says it would kill Rey (which seems something related to the linking of the minds). It's all typical setups and payoffs.

 

Rian Johnnson seems to write in a really formalist way. It's not exactly avant-garde. Instead, the writing is just hyper-aware in a clunky way of people's expectations, the ridiculousness of Star Wars, and cinematic references that are not Star Wars (!). It also really wants the movie to be about something (almost all scenes revolve around combinations of the same four themes).

 

I think I connect much better with this brute force approach than what Abrams did.

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Without being a Sith, you can't use the Sith magic...

 

And without being a Jedi you can't learn by example, how to retain your identity after your death.

 

You don't want to follow the rules of the religions?  Well, accept the fact you will not be able to use some powers.

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4 minutes ago, Bespin said:

Without being a Sith, you can't use the Sith magic...

 

And without being a Jedi you can't learn by example, how to retain your identity after your death.

 

You don't want to follow the rules of the religions?  Well, accept the fact you will not be able to use some powers.

 

Yeah sounds about right. Still leaves me wondering, since Kylo and Rey seem more powerful than any Force-users we've seen before, what is not available to them without the benefits of these religions - and whether that can be explored.

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5 minutes ago, idril said:

 

Yeah sounds about right. Still leaves me wondering, since Kylo and Rey seem more powerful than any Force-users we've seen before, what is not available to them without the benefits of these religions - and whether that can be explored.

 

The ways of the Force are mysterious... it have it's own path.  But Kylo and Rey are mysteriously "connected", that's a new thing. We don't know why.

 

A thing it's clear, they can do it only because the two are flirting with the light and dark side. It scared Luke, don't you remember he didn't liked that...

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1 minute ago, Bespin said:

 

The ways of the Force are mysterious... it have it's own path.  But Kylo and Rey are mysteriously "connected", that's a new thing. We don't know why.

 

A thing it's clear, they can do that only because the two are flirting with the light and dark side.

 

I love what you are saying here! But I wonder is that actually what we saw in TLJ? Because it is explained that Snoke connected them - so maybe that is the only reason? And since they seem firmly set into Light and Dark archetypes by the end of the film, I worry that this mysterious connection and newness isn't quite where the franchise is going.

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8 minutes ago, Bespin said:

Snoke can say whatever he wants...  We will never know who he is.

 

Goddammit! :angry: (Johnson what's wrong with you!? Stop throwing away the toys).

Personally I will always love Snoke if only for his fantastic sense of interior design. That red room!!

 

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From now reading over a dozen interviews of Rian Johnson, it is entirely clear that he is a huge fanboy of one character/actor and basically built the entire film around that character/actor and that is Kylo Ren/Adam Driver.

 

Unquestionably in many ways the main character of TLJ

- Most growth

- Most interesting arc

- Most major plot developments

 

Rey was reduced to being a nemesis for Kylo rather than the other way round! By all means on paper Rey is the protagonist of the new saga but you wouldn't know that from TLJ.

 

This is the reverse Marvel syndrome. The anti-hero or antagonist far far far outweighs the heroes in terms of quality of writing, quality of scenes and quality of character development.

 

Driver gives the best performance in the film? Of course he does. No one else has anything of note to do in the first place.

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13 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

From now reading over a dozen interviews of Rian Johnson, it is entirely clear that he is a huge fanboy of one character/actor and basically built the entire film around that character/actor and that is Kylo Ren/Adam Driver.

 

Unquestionably in many ways the main character of TLJ

- Most growth

- Most interesting arc

- Most major plot developments

 

Rey was reduced to being a nemesis for Kylo rather than the other way round! By all means on paper Rey is the protagonist of the new saga but you wouldn't know that from TLJ.

 

This is the reverse Marvel syndrome. The anti-hero or antagonist far far far outweighs the heroes in terms of quality of writing, quality of scenes and quality of character development.

 

Driver gives the best performance in the film? Of course he does. No one else has anything of note to do in the first place.

 

So if I watch TLJ as a Kylo Ren film, it won't be as bad as people are saying it is?

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Just now, Denise Bryson said:

 

So if I watch TLJ as a Kylo Ren film, it won't be as bad as people are saying it is?

 

Well He's not the only one in it. there are other characters in it who are stuck in meaningless storylines. So there's that to consider. But his material is the most potent and interesting, almost to a fault.

 

 

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If it wasn't for Williams legacy in all of this, I would be done with SW.  I hope JJ can find a way to make a final movie that gets the bad taste out of my mouth.  Otherwise, I will regret that SW ever went beyond VI (even with existence of Rey's theme). 

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11 hours ago, Blumenkohl said:

 

It was the most un-Star Wars arc. Star Wars has always been about subverting the behind the desk bureaucracy in favor of heroes who dive into the action, take risks, and suffer the consequences. 

 

This message was "STFU you petulant daredevil and trust the bureaucracy and their secret plans!" 

 

At least Holdo had the heroic decency to sacrifice herself at the end. But the ultimate message: shut up and trust the bureaucrats and their secrets is just not a Star Wars message. 

man what a pile of idiotic bullshit you just wrote. I would not ever think of you as clueless until now. See my response to Tom's foolishness below.

10 hours ago, Tom said:

Yes, blind obedience to authority is always a valuable lesson that we all should learn. 

I could use a quote from Aliens, but I would rather be far more rude and blunt but thanks for your retarded response. We all feel better now. I guess you said the same thing when Yoda schooled Luke, 

12 hours ago, JohnSolo said:

Hipster hater.

you say that like its a bad thing. 

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But that is what happens.  Holdo will not tell one of the most trusted pilots (if VII means anything anymore) the plan for no other reason than to make him blindly obey and trust her.  It is not as if telling him the plan would have in any way jeopardized the plan itself.  He has every reason not to give blind obedience to some new leader with whom he has no experience, but the movie wants to paint him as the bad guy for not obeying.  With the resistance as small as it is at that point, a good leader who give such details if it did not jeopardize the plan and there was time to do so, which in this case there was, as it would have taken 10 seconds. 

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Sounds like this movie really was cooked up by a thinktank of millennial social justice types who believe in blind obedience to the power and authority of the Almighty State, and the infallible bureaucrats are its holy people who are not to be questioned. That's not the spirit of free will and individualism that used to define Star Wars.

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