Nick1Ø66 6,082 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 My ideal order is IV-V-VI. Stop. And VI is optional. 16 hours ago, Chen G. said: Yeah, those are truly Lucas' vision, and because they were building towards the original Star Wars, he had the basic contour of the plot figured out Which is more than you can say for this new trilogy. If the OT did what they're doing in the new trilogy, Richard Marquand could have said "I'm not really interested in who the "other" Yoda spoke about is, we don't have time to fit it in and it doesn't advance the story I'm trying to tell. The same with Vader being Luke's father. That's interesting, but not really something we're going to be exploring. We don't need to return to Dagaboh either; been there, done that." Will and idril 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mstrox 7,011 Posted January 19, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted January 19, 2018 16 minutes ago, Nick1066 said: If the OT did what they're doing in the new trilogy, Richard Marquand could have said "I'm not really interested in who the "other" Yoda spoke about is, we don't have time to fit it in and it doesn't advance the story I'm trying to tell. The same with Vader being Luke's father. That's interesting, but not really something we're going to be exploring. We don't need to return to Dagaboh either; been there, done that." The difference is, the "mysteries" of The Force Awakens (WHO IS SNOKE? WHICH EXISTING CHARACTERS ARE REY'S PARENTS??) were not presented as such. TFA presented Snoke as a big guy named Snoke who ruled the First Order. Nobody in the movie was whispering "Holy crap who is this mysterious Snoke guy?" He is a known quantity to the people in the movie - Leia and Han both talk matter-of-factly about him. Snoke is Snoke! In the end, exactly what was presented in TFA was what we saw on screen. He was a big guy named Snoke who ruled the First Order. The "mystery" was conjured by fans who craved something more. In fact, if you graduated beyond Basic Movie Fan and hit Geek Level 2 at least, you'd know that Lucasfilm story group people went on record on Twitter WELL before TLJ came out saying "Snoke is a big guy named Snoke." At the very least, Pablo Hidalgo said it. It was one of the few pieces of solid TLJ-type information that they actually talked about before the movie came out. TFA presented Rey as a person abandoned by parent(s) on Jakku - parents who never came back. There IS a question mark there - who are they and why did they abandon her? We find out in TLJ. They were Jakku gutter rats and they sold her for booze money. Question answered. John, Bofur01, Holko and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 6,082 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 I'm not necessarily talking about the "mysteries" or answering any particular plot point. In the two years between TFA and TLJ I thought about who Snoke is, who Rey's parents were, and who the Knight's of Ren are for a total of about three minutes (if that). I never really cared that much about the particulars of it all, I just would have liked to see those things dealt with thoughtfully. My issue is that there doesn't seem to be any one person driving this train who's interested in pulling it all together. I think it hurts the story. For all GL's faults, he was still the guy with the vision. idril 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 4,796 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 32 minutes ago, mstrox said: TFA presented Snoke as a big guy named Snoke who ruled the First Order.[...] TFA presented Rey as a person abandoned by parent(s) on Jakku - parents who never came back. You don't need the characters to voice the mystery for the audience. What you want as an audience is for elements that are planted to be payed off. That's the most basic element of narrative structure. Nick1Ø66 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 7,011 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 But what element was "planted" in "Big Evil Guy Named Snoke?" The mystery was wholly invented by Internet fan theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taikomochi 1,272 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 The mystery of Rey’s parents wasn’t even really acknowledged much in TFA and has very little time devoted to it. There was just this cynical awareness, I felt, that the series was trapped in its own tropes and would probably try to do something with her parents in order to pinch more money in our wallets, as would be typical for anything JJ Abrams touches. I never cared about Rey’s parents and thought it undercut her character to have to worry about that. I am glad they went another way. John, TSMefford and mstrox 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 4,796 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 14 minutes ago, mstrox said: But what element was "planted" in "Big Evil Guy Named Snoke?" The mystery was wholly invented by Internet fan theory. That the "big evil guy" will have a significance in the story, which he ended up not having. I actually think showing Ren "complete his training" under Snoke would have been very interesting to see: We never saw that with Vader. It could have infused the film with a nice theme about indoctrination. idril 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,399 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 On 8.1.2018 at 11:27 AM, mstrox said: ESB>SW>TLJ>TFA>RO>ROJ>ROTS>TPM>AOTC Fucking precisely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Dutton 7,692 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 My preferred order is I, II, III. Skip everything else. Ewok movies every few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick1Ø66 6,082 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 You forgot the Holiday Special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Dutton 7,692 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 I only consider the ones Lucas was involved with. The Holiday Special was out of his hands. I-VI are canon, although the OT is slightly debatable since they don't seem to align with Lucas' vision and have required various edits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,047 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 I prefer to see the original movies as their own complete story, and everything else that comes after as a kind of quasi-alternate-universe Rosencratz and Guildenstern exploration/riff on established characters/worlds etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Dutton 7,692 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 The prequels feel like a complete story with symmetry and shit and I dig that about them. The originals feel decidedly more slapped together, if you will, especially the transition from ESB to ROTJ, which is all wrong. That adds to their charm, but it has the feeling of being made up as they went along and not unified as a complete vision like the PT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idril 86 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 1 minute ago, Philippe Roaché said: The prequels feel like a complete story with symmetry and shit and I dig that about them. The originals feel decidedly more slapped together, if you will, especially the transition from ESB to ROTJ, which is all wrong. That adds to their charm, but it has the feeling of being made up as they went along and not unified as a complete vision like the PT. Yeah, although I do think the OT films each bring their own charm and work well as a trilogy, I must agree that the PT is the most cohesive. It seems the more hands-on Lucas is, the more cohesive things are, which makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John 2,032 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 The only two prequel movies that I think are cohesive when viewed as a whole are AOTC and ROTS. TPM doesn't really do anything; anything of story relevance is rehashed in the first 5 minutes or so of AOTC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Dutton 7,692 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 Nute Gunray's arc is incomplete without it. You can't skip that! Watch it! Or something! DolceMecha and Taikomochi 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post idril 86 Posted January 19, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted January 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, JohnSolo said: The only two prequel movies that I think are cohesive when viewed as a whole are AOTC and ROTS. TPM doesn't really do anything; anything of story relevance is rehashed in the first 5 minutes or so of AOTC. To some extent this is true but it still adds a great deal that enriches the following films. Some examples: it gives us the dynamic of Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan, which creates this beautiful situation in which Obi-Wan never asked to be the man who would take care of the Chosen One and watch him fall - this renegade Jedi Qui-Gon got them into this mess, got himself killed, and then Obi-Wan, a classic reluctant hero in the moment, had to take on that mantle. I just love this dynamic for what it does for Obi-Wan's character but also for giving us a great figure in Qui-Gon. TPM also does a lot of character-building for Padme, especially politically, and it establishes Anakin and Padme's relationship as stemming from a childhood idealisation. The reason I think this works really well (at least in theory, how it's directed/written is a slightly different conversation) is that it adds to the fact that Anakin has put Padme on a pedestal. When he is reunited with her AOTC, she is untouchable and perfect to him and his obsession with her is so extreme that it contributes to his moving towards the Dark Side in ROTS. If they just met in AOTC, it would come off more like an ordinary teen romance, which is fine, but adding that childhood idealisation really shows how fundamental Padme has been in Anakin's entire life. Plus TPM establishes Padme's daring and curious nature in going undercover. I feel like her fighting in the finale of AOTC would feel rather forced, since she is a senator, if we hadn't seen how she was as a queen. There is also the Tatooine connection. Without establishing Anakin's childhood slavery, his relationship with his mother, his origins on Tatooine (which also ties to Luke's story), I think AOTC would not work as well. We would have no context for his revisiting his mother or seeking revenge, no context for how he was outside of the Jedi Order. Politically, I understand that you could kind of start at AOTC and it wouldn't make a huge difference, but politics doesn't work like that. It never just starts at one point and there are always a hundred trade deals and embargos and skirmishes that occur as preludes to an all-out war. Lucas gets a lot of slack for the political elements of the PT, but I have always admired the complexity and nuance of incorporating a believable series of events that led to the Clone Wars. Jamie Dutton, Brundlefly, Will and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John 2,032 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 2 hours ago, idril said: TPM also does a lot of character-building for Padme, especially politically, and it establishes Anakin and Padme's relationship as stemming from a childhood idealisation. The reason I think this works really well (at least in theory, how it's directed/written is a slightly different conversation) is that it adds to the fact that Anakin has put Padme on a pedestal. When he is reunited with her AOTC, she is untouchable and perfect to him and his obsession with her is so extreme that it contributes to his moving towards the Dark Side in ROTS. If they just met in AOTC, it would come off more like an ordinary teen romance, which is fine, but adding that childhood idealisation really shows how fundamental Padme has been in Anakin's entire life. Plus TPM establishes Padme's daring and curious nature in going undercover. I feel like her fighting in the finale of AOTC would feel rather forced, since she is a senator, if we hadn't seen how she was as a queen. I suppose my issue here is that Padme isn't a believable character at all. Neither is the romance in AOTC. Anakin is a borderline sexual predator, and based on how Padme reacts to his advances earlier in the movie, she's creeped out and disgusted by this dude. That's bad enough, but because the plot needs her to, she suddenly falls in love with him, despite her being an upright and reputable senator with a strong sense of morals and right and wrong. Talk about bad writing. I also give her credit for being in one of, if not the worst moment in the Star Wars saga; Anakin tells Padme that he enjoyed massacring the entire tribe of Sand People (including the women and children, mind you) and she just shrugs it off. I'm not saying she forgives him, or helps him reform, which could've been interesting and compelling. She literally just forgets about it two minutes later and basically just says "we're all human, everyone gets angry sometimes!" It's just awful. It's so bad, people actually have headcanons that Anakin was just using one big old mind trick on her. It's also disturbing. The reason (most) people feel so uncomfortable watching this is that because they know someone made this movie thinking that this is OK behavior. That's worrying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Dutton 7,692 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 To be angry is to be human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idril 86 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 1 minute ago, Philippe Roaché said: To be angry is to be human. Actually yeah this points to the fact that Padme was pulling Anakin away from the inhuman abnegation of the Jedi and towards a more emotional place. But in the process she was overlooking the dangers of this, and I think lying to herself about how disturbed/dangerous he was. There's no doubt that their love is unhealthy and damaging to both of them. But I'm not sure it's fair to say she is creeped out and disgusted by him - just because she doesn't fall into his bed straight away doesn't mean she isn't potentially attracted to him! She obviously has reservations, as she should, considering he is a Jedi, but she willingly goes along with flouting the rules and getting married anyway. And she is endangering his position as a Jedi more than he is endangering hers as a senator. Senators can obviously get married, Jedi cannot. I don't think that they have a healthy relationship, mind you. A healthy relationship wouldn't contribute to someone falling to the Dark Side! But the PT is Padme's tragedy as much as it is Anakin's. She is a strong, intelligent, driven and highly moral politician - with one terrible human flaw, which is falling in love with someone absolutely inappropriate. I love Padme's character because of this. She isn't perfect. She compromises herself and falls into an unhealthy romance. She reflects a very common type of person, who is devoted and righteous and good in their professional life, but terribly flawed in their personal relationships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John 2,032 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 11 minutes ago, Philippe Roaché said: To be angry is to be human. Not to the extent that Anakin takes it. In the later two prequels, he's pretty much a sociopath, with little to no likable characters traits at all. A very loathsome protagonist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Dutton 7,692 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 He's more realistic and relatable because of his flaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John 2,032 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 Realistic? Not in the least. Relatable? Sure, if you happen to be a mass murderer or another type of criminal, then yes, he is a relatable figure. Jamie Dutton and A. A. Ron 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 4,796 Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 Yeah, when I first got to watch Attack of the Clones, it must have been the first time I was loathing my protagonist. And because he is the way he is, it also drags Obi Wan down, like when he chastises Anakin in front of Padme, or in the end "come to your senses!" Makes him sound like a jerk, too. Which is to say nothing of the Jedi council. The only one who has a genuinely fatherly dynamic with Anakin is Palpatine. But we as an audience are supposed to understand why Anakin would side with Sidius, not relate to him siding with him! A. A. Ron and John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John 2,032 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 Rian Johnson's response to a fan on Twitter who had a quibble with the "Leia Poppins" scene from The Last Jedi: He always seems like a really great, down-to-earth guy. Like the type of person you'd invite over for pizza, and sit on a couch and talk for hours about geeky stuff. Arpy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 4,796 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 All this rationalizing after-the-fact is irrelevant, though. It should just have been staged so that the visual didn't look as it does. Also, I'm generally not a fan of the "Oh, sh*t, a character is dead, no! Oh, s/he isn't." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bespinGPT 8,952 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 I loved the scene where Leia dies, the movie should have stopped there (just before she takes herself for Supergirl). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,456 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 What I want to know is, did Leia pull herself back into the ship, or did Leia pull the universe towards herself? Arpy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dimitrescu 9,171 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 Even though I've read all the spoilers since I don't care anymore, it's interesting the amount of spoilers so casually mentioned in news stories and social media at this point. It'd be infuriating for someone who hasn't seen it yet and wanted to go in clean. Jamie Dutton 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taikomochi 1,272 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 It’s been a month. Anyone who actually cared has already seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Brundlefly 2,399 Posted January 20, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted January 20, 2018 All the complaints about the Leia scene are so annoying! You know there was a time when people thought evoking lightnings belongs to wizards and has nothing to do with Star Wars. But every movie revealed another ability you can do with the force. Is Leia's subconcious creation of a vakuum when she is almost dying that upsetting? Furthermore, for those who are bothered by the imagery: Star Wars is based on fairy tales, westerns, legends, monumental films, etc. This basis can be expanded to every other genre and culture there is. So be bothered, but there is no reason. mstrox, John and Arpy 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dimitrescu 9,171 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 36 minutes ago, Taikomochi said: It’s been a month. Anyone who actually cared has already seen it. That's no excuse for deliberately spoiling the movie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Dutton 7,692 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 So Leia dies in this one? I thought Han's death was atrocious. It was very awkward and when he fell into the abyss it looked like when the Reman viceroy falls down the shaft in Star Trek: Nemesis. This trend of killing classic characters and passing on the torch or whatever is so Star Trek: Generations. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balahkay 629 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 I didn't mind Leia using the force. In fact, I always wanted to see Leia train as a Jedi but her flying through space just looked silly to me. I'm not sure the point of it except as a way to introduce Holdo and have her take over while Leia was comatose. I suppose the music made up for it, though. That rendition of her theme before she starts flying is absolutely beautiful. Also, if Leia could something extraordinary like fly through space using the force, then why couldn't she move those rocks at the end or do something else to help the Resistance escape? Unless if she used up all her force power and was waiting for a refill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Dutton 7,692 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 She flies through space? Sounds like the Mutt vine swinging moment of TLJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,521 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 But better! Johnson has redeemed the Prequels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 10,830 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 She never trained to use the Force, but she had the potential in her. That moment was supposedly a purely instinctive reaction to a dire situation. Arpy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Dutton 7,692 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 She flies through space?? Like Data in Star Trek: Nemesis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,521 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 Yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,518 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 6 hours ago, Stefancos said: Johnson has redeemed the Prequels. Jesus fucking christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dimitrescu 9,171 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 I'm glad I didn't waste money seeing this piece of crap. Jamie Dutton 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fancyarcher 351 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 I actually took no issue with Leia using the force. In a dire situation like that, it actually made some sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,456 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Leia used the Force to hear Luke's cries for help below Cloud City, and again to sense his escape from Death Star II. A Force muggle like Han would not have been able to do either. Do people forget this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,162 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 10 hours ago, someonefun124 said: I didn't mind Leia using the force. In fact, I always wanted to see Leia train as a Jedi but her flying through space just looked silly to me. I'm not sure the point of it except as a way to introduce Holdo and have her take over while Leia was comatose. I suppose the music made up for it, though. That rendition of her theme before she starts flying is absolutely beautiful. Also, if Leia could something extraordinary like fly through space using the force, then why couldn't she move those rocks at the end or do something else to help the Resistance escape? Unless if she used up all her force power and was waiting for a refill. My guess would be that it was a survival instinct and a small pull of the force through space is enough to propel her towards the ship. At first I thought the scene was a little awkward, but after a little time to gestate it, it isn't too far-fetched that a novice with no training (like Rey) could at least use a portion of their force powers. I'll never get over the ludicrous reactions from countless idiots who think they're clever by pointing out the ridiculousness of the scene. They're almost the same as the dickheads who hoped Snoke would be the reinvigorated Mace Windu... Now THAT'S ridiculous! I'll quote Christopher Hitchens here: "People prefer a junk theory over no theory at all". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 4,796 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 You're approaching this the wrong way. People take issue with that visual, not with th fact that Leia uses The Force. The whole thing simply had to be staged differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,399 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 On 20.1.2018 at 11:57 AM, Holko said: She never trained to use the Force, but she had the potential in her. That moment was supposedly a purely instinctive reaction to a dire situation. It's that simple! Some people don't seem to get that. I don't care for the visuals. In ten years it's a classic Star Wars moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idril 86 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Yeah of all the problems with TLJ, I don't find this anywhere near the worst. Maybe the visuals don't come off quite right, fine, but I don't think there's any problem with Leia having an instinctual response of survival through her latent connection with the Force. If anything the problem was in TFA, that Leia wasn't established as being a Force-user (which was heavily implied to be her path in ROTJ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 4,796 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 7 hours ago, Brundlefly said: I don't care for the visuals. In ten years it's a classic Star Wars moment. But its a film: the visuals are the most important thing. You’re all approaching this subject as fans of Star Wars where you should approach it as fans of cinema: the difference being that, for the latter, as opposed to the former, the universe exists only to serve the film and the narrative, as it should be. I don’t think people will warm up to The Last Jedi as much as you think. Fan criticisms aside, it’s a deeply flawed movie. A. A. Ron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dimitrescu 9,171 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 Remember about a month before this movie came out, people here were so confident about its impending high quality and how Disney/Kennedy must be so confident about Johnson, so the movie will probably be a near-flawless masterpiece? Hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,399 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, Chen G. said: I don’t think people will warm up to The Last Jedi as much as you think. Fan criticisms aside, it’s a deeply flawed movie. Hell, no. The prequel trilogy is deeply flawed. The two Jedi movies are flawed, but not deeply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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