The Last Jedi Podcast: Rian Johnson On How John Williams Works

[Thor 8,248]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Have you read Emilio Audissino's book? I haven't yet - can't take him seriously when he writes John Williams's in the title. 

 

I haven't, no. I'm thankful that no one has written a straight-up biography/filmography walktrough book about him yet, as it leaves the market open a bit longer. Everything that has been written so far are adaptations of theses in some form or another, including Audissino's book. But the longer I wait, the more likely it is someone will do just that.

[Jurassic Shark 12,984]

14 minutes ago, fommes said:

What's wrong with correct English? Williams is not Aristoteles you know!

 

It's more a matter of personal preference. Quoted from the Chicago Manual of Style: "How to form the possessive of polysyllabic personal names ending with the sound of "s" or "z" probably occasions more dissension among writers and editors than any other orthographic matter open to disagreement." (6.30)

 

If the first SW films you saw were the prequel trilogy, you likely have been taught to write 's after a word ending with s. Old schools are often happy with just the apostrophe.

[Thor 8,248]

Indeed. I share your old school sentiments, JS.

 

Now we're REALLY far off-topic, btw.

[Jurassic Shark 12,984]

As long as we're off-topic; I have an immense respect for both Aristotle and JW.

[TheUlyssesian 2,576]

3 hours ago, Jay said:

You think Disney execs give a crap which TAKE of the main titles is used?  Come on.

 

Or better still, could they even tell one apart from another.

[Ricard 2,254]

On 12/18/2017 at 2:54 PM, Muad'Dib said:

"When we were editing, we had a very talented music editor, Joe Bond, ...

 

BTW the name is Joe Bonn. I just got an email from him pointing out the typo

[Muad'Dib 1,855]

He's been reading all this? I feel kinda embarassed....

[Ricard 2,254]

He saw it on the main page article, I don't know if he read this thread.

[FranchisedYouth 4]

23 minutes ago, Rick said:

He saw it on the main page article, I don't know if he read this thread.

 

Long time lurker here and Joe is a good friend of mine. He's read this thread. FTR that Bill Ross story is total BS. You guys may not want to believe me, I don't care either way. Just thought those of you that are also huge JW fans would want to know the truth.  

[Jay 39,247]

"Bill Ross story"?

[FranchisedYouth 4]

22 minutes ago, Jay said:

"Bill Ross story"?

 

I realize the story could have been sarcasm that he stormed off and told Bill Ross to "do the cue" and it went over my head 

[artguy360 1,889]

It's true, all of it.

[Jay 39,247]

Are you talking about this post on the first page?

 

On 12/17/2017 at 3:09 AM, crumbs said:

They hate each other's guts.

 

Insiders told me Williams yelled out expletive-laden abusive rants from the podium, regularly storming off the stage and screaming at Bill Ross, "you handle this fucking cue."

 

 

That post was a joke, not a serious post!

[FranchisedYouth 4]

22 minutes ago, Jay said:

Are you talking about this post on the first page?

 

 

 

That post was a joke, not a serious post!

Jay,

 

Yeah I realize that now. Should have guessed based on his/her username. Just having read fan comments about the music and film, and talking to Joe about it...Well I have seen some absurd and serious comments. That's my blunder. Realizing it is a joke, it is f'n hilarious. 

 

I've heard nothing but the best things about JW as a human and musician 

[Jay 39,247]

Yea that Williams guy is pretty good 

[Muad'Dib 1,855]

We may critizice our Johnny from time to time but we love him, TLJ is really warming up to me! So many good passages -so far I have a more personal attachment with TFA (the score, the movie I dig but not as much as the music) -but we'll see what happens when I see TLJ in a couple of days....

[Simon R. 10]

16 hours ago, Jay said:

You think Disney execs give a crap which TAKE of the main titles is used?  Come on.

 

Actually no, I don't - it was more a general comment to the notion that the director has "final say" - that is rarely the case. The producers are highest in the hierarchy.

[crumbs 14,814]

10 hours ago, FranchisedYouth said:

Long time lurker here and Joe is a good friend of mine. He's read this thread. FTR that Bill Ross story is total BS. You guys may not want to believe me, I don't care either way. Just thought those of you that are also huge JW fans would want to know the truth.  

 

I need to make my jokes more obvious next time!

 

If you get the chance, could you please ask Joe if he knows why they re-used the TFA recording of Main Title when the director himself was under the impression they were using the newly recorded TLJ version (which is MIA)? Is this a music editing mistake that slipped through the cracks?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,386]

4 hours ago, Simon R. said:

 

Actually no, I don't - it was more a general comment to the notion that the director has "final say" - that is rarely the case. The producers are highest in the hierarchy.

 

It depends on how "big" the director is.

[Richard Penna 4,121]

Yeah, SS/JJ and the like probably do get final say, and would be in a position tell the studio to bugger off.

 

I can't imagine 'smalller' directors could do that.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,386]

I'm not even sure JJ got final cut on TFA.

[crumbs 14,814]

I'm pretty sure he negotiated that before signing on? He held off and got a pretty good deal because he knew they wanted him badly.

[Jurassic Shark 12,984]

He's such a diva.

[mrbellamy 6,681]

12 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Yeah, SS/JJ and the like probably do get final say, and would be in a position tell the studio to bugger off.

 

I can't imagine 'smalller' directors could do that.

 

Of course Spielberg and Abrams are also typically producers of their own films. A lot of auteurs usually end up starting their own production companies before too long.

 

But I remember Scorsese for example has said that he's given up final cut a few times over the years in order to get his films financed. At this point, though, I doubt anyone going into business with him would be that interested in vetoing him, anyway, whether or not they had the contractual privilege to do so. I'm sure he's gotten good at winning those arguments by now.

 

****
 

Anyway, wanted to throw this in here. Rian Johnson did a Q&A with the Writers' Guild, and around 43 minutes talked a bit more about Williams. A lot of the same stuff about giving JW the temp to work with instead of spotting, he writes with pencil/paper, no mockups etc. But a couple good extra comments:

 

Quote

Over the past three years, the whole thing of meeting and working with your heroes, I've been playing out to varying degrees and John Williams...he's the one guy where I can tell you, if you imagine the best version in your head of John Williams and then add 300%, that's John Williams. He is the sweetest, loveliest man. Beyond the fact that he's our greatest living film composer and there's nobody in the world who does what he does...if you see him work it feels like he's at the height of his powers. It's incredible what he does. But he's also just, like, so cool doing it, man.

 

Quote

The first time I heard any of the cues was when a 100 piece orchestra was playing them on the Sony stage and it was incredible. Every time a new scene would come up I'd be leaning forward like "What's this gonna be?!" and of course it's John Williams and Star Wars. There were only, I think, maybe two things where he laid down a cue, we put it in, went with it for awhile, and I had to go back to him and say "It does this, but here's the reason why I think it should do this." Maybe like two cues out of the entire thing. Everything else, it's John Williams, man.

 

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[Jurassic Shark 12,984]

There could be more alternates if JW himself wasn't satisfied with a cue.

[BloodBoal 7,541]

I was trying to reassure KM, and of course, you had to ruin it all!

[Jurassic Shark 12,984]

Go and eat your fries.

 

[crumbs 14,814]

So we have at least two alternates, an unused new Main Title, plus music from deleted scenes.

 

I can't wait for the Matessino expansion in 2037!

[Jurassic Shark 12,984]

51 minutes ago, crumbs said:

So we have at least two alternates, an unused new Main Title, plus music from deleted scenes.

 

+ the kazoo alternates of all cues.

[TownerFan 5,098]

Quote

The first time I heard any of the cues was when a 100 piece orchestra was playing them on the Sony stage and it was incredible. Every time a new scene would come up I'd be leaning forward like "What's this gonna be?!" and of course it's John Williams and Star Wars. There were only, I think, maybe two things where he laid down a cue, we put it in, went with it for awhile, and I had to go back to him and say "It does this, but here's the reason why I think it should do this." Maybe like two cues out of the entire thing. Everything else, it's John Williams, man.

 

That's interesting to know. In several ways, the score truly sounds like Williams' first pass at every scene. The music also sounds pretty untampered in terms of editing/tracking, etc. It's safe to assume he's very confident to know exactly from the get-go what these movies need in terms of scoring. I'm sure he proposed Johnson alternate cues for some scenes, though.

[Richard Penna 4,121]

Meh, I could do without the usual 'of course John Williams is the greatest composer ever and of course as a result the score is going to be perfect' which is basically what he knows every SW/JW fan in the world wants to hear.

 

I also don't think I can get behind the idea of hearing the score for the first time at the sessions. It's an indication of taking for granted that the composer's last couple of months have aligned more or less exactly with what you wanted in your film. Not even JW should be given that privilege.

[toothless 984]

Agreed.

[Jurassic Shark 12,984]

1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:

I also don't think I can get behind the idea of hearing the score for the first time at the sessions.

 

Hasn't that also happened with SS on a few films?

[crumbs 14,814]

Yeah, The Post, War of the Worlds and a few others. Usually it's when Spielberg has these compressed schedules.

[Jurassic Shark 12,984]

But SS and JW have a telepathic connection that Rian could only dream of.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Chen G. 4,515]

True.

 

But hey, both have a track called "Old Friends."

[mstrox 6,891]

I'd think the greatest sign of respect for a composer would be trusting them and giving them free reign.

[BloodBoal 7,541]

5 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

True.

 

But hey, both have a track called "Old Friends."

 

The TLJ one is better, though.

 

2 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I'd think the greatest sign of respect for a composer would be trusting them and giving them free reign.

 

Doing a movie is supposed to be a collaborative effort. It's not really: "Oh, well, do your own thing in your corner and then we'll simply add it at the end!"

[Loert 2,630]

3 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I'd think the greatest sign of respect for a composer would be trusting them and giving them free reign.

 

So without a temp track.

[Chen G. 4,515]

6 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

The TLJ one is better, though.

Well, its not a good comparison in terms of how both albums were constructed, but I like Shore's one better.

 

8 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I'd think the greatest sign of respect for a composer would be trusting them and giving them free reign.

Everyone in a creative process occasionally need to be reined-in or pushed-forward.

[mstrox 6,891]

2 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

Doing a movie is supposed to be a collaborative effort. It's not really: "Oh, well, do your own thing in your corner and then we'll simply add it at the end!"

 

But that's not what happened.  They gave him the shape they expected (yes, via temp versus traditional spotting session), AND asked for a handful of revisions.

 

2 minutes ago, Loert said:

 

So without a temp track.

 

Spielberg uses temp tracks; almost everyone uses temp tracks.  The filmmakers say that in this case they used the temp track just to show Williams the shape of the score, and that they didn't expect him to follow the temp.

 

 

Sometimes when I'm reading JWFan I feel like I'm in a Twilight Zone episode or something.  I've transported to the dimension of the doomsayers!

[BloodBoal 7,541]

Sometimes when I'm reading your posts I feel like I'm in the mstrox thread or something. 

[mstrox 6,891]

If I got John Williams to score "the mstrox movie," I'd temp the entire three hours of it wall-to-wall with "The Knight Bus" and tell him, "This is what I'm looking for generally, but don't follow the temp."

[gkgyver 1,647]

If Johnson did give Williams free reign over the music, without much discussion or pushing, then I'd say TLJ is a good example how giving a composer free reign can work to a score's detriment.

Because no matter how skilled you are or how hard you work, it will always be a one-perspective effort, and satisfaction is coming sooner than with a collaborating director who gives you maybe another perspective, and pushes you to write something else.

The comparison to Jackson and Shore is really a good example because had Jackson said to Shore "just write your Lord of the Rings music and do your thing", I guarantee it wouldn't have been as good.

 

I can't warm up to this score because 90% of it feels like I've heard this a billion times before in better quality.

[Richard Penna 4,121]

I thought the prevailing thinking behind Shore's departure from Kong was that PJ had done exactly that - left him to it - and realised too late that it was the wrong approach. Of course, we don't know if the score was any good.

 

I haven't really gotten into TLJ outside of a few cues. It definitely feels underwhelming.

[Joni Wiljami 1,208]

Surprising.

[artguy360 1,889]

I don't think any of us have enough insight or knowledge about the production of this score to draw any straight lines from the process to the music itself. 

[Joni Wiljami 1,208]

4 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

 

The TLJ one is better, though.

 

 

Seriously? I mean really??