Faleel 5,346 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 Hopefully the FYC is a little lighter on the EQ etc., ala HTTYD2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 6 minutes ago, ocelot said: I'm really enjoying the album but I think all those synth drums cheapen the score to me. It's not needed. There's enough percussion in the orchestra to not need cheap repeated notes whacking all over the place over the whole score.... gggrrrrrr..... This guy is a really good composer, why do this to the score?! Anyway, just my opinion. It's just not needed and sounds odd and like your trying to hide something when there is nothing to hide. It doesn't let the music speak. I love it in something streamlined like the Bourne movies. I adore those scores, but this is Star Wars. Give me orchestra and have 10 orchestral percussionists on various drums from Timpani, Taiko, Log, Snares, Toms etc etc etc, make it organic! Well, I think you are somewhat right. But the percussion is on point in Mine Mission. ocelot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ocelot 508 Posted May 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted May 26, 2018 1.12 to the end of the last track, Dice and Roll, I wonder if that is one of the Variations Williams wrote as an ending, it sounds pure Williams there. All and All, in the end, honestly, it's funny, no one can deliver that sound that Williams does in a full score. It's just not possible for any composer out there today. But then again, why should they? It should be the Star Wars sound however still that composer's score. There is a reason (and I know I'll be bashed but I don't honestly care because it's not a dig) there is a reason why someone like Zimmer is easily copied, easy pop type of blanket scoring, and a composer like Williams is hard, because of his harmonic language and complicated scoring. I love that we get such a unique sound from this legend. But also in the end, music is subjective. Love what you love and listen and support who you love regardless what anyone else has to say, but then again, I don't have to really say that here, lol. OK, off to the gym and I will give it another listen. Well a full listen. I just sort of went through the score here and there. Can't wait to go see the movie. 1 minute ago, Steve McQueen said: Well, I think you are somewhat right. But the percussion is on point in Mine Mission. Agreed, because those are snares and timpani etc etc, not synth drums clicking away or bashing away on every beat on top of the orchestra. 5 minutes ago, TGP said: Yeah I was going to say that, pretty sure it's all jammed live. What makes it sound a little synthetic, and the rest of the mix actually, is the damn smiley EQing that happens with a lot of Powell's scores. Could do without that. Is that what it is? It sounds like synth drums but I'm not savvy on that stuff (I call all that type of sound synth drums). It just doesn't sound orchestral or that it meshes at all but rather just pounds on top of the orchestra making a lot of the music inaudible. YoYoMama, Joni Wiljami, filmmusic and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted May 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted May 26, 2018 It may be true that for someone with little to no real musical talent it is, at the extreme surface level, easier to fake the Zimmer sound than it is Williams', but from a perspective of real musicianship, both can be faked pretty easily. And in both cases, the fake will never possess the real soul or expression of who it is imitating. So I wouldn't say that Zimmer is easily copied, bearing that in mind. Zimmer's music moves me quite deeply and the imitations don't, however similar they may be in a superficial sense. Hence the many shitty knockoffs of Zimmer's music...and yes, of Williams' too. You don't see anyone running around successfully mimicking either of those styles, not with any real substance. As always, composers should want, and be allowed, to write what they are naturally inclined to. SteveMc, Ricard, Nick Parker and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 There are many perfectly adequate Zimmer-type scores out there. ocelot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 What happened? What'd I miss? Did Williams drop the ball again? ocelot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 18 minutes ago, Stefancos said: There are many perfectly adequate Zimmer-type scores out there. But there's the rub--they're only "adequate." They serve the dramatic exigencies of their respective films, but little more than that. With Zimmer music, you can hear the soul of a man who's loved and lost; who lived on a strict diet of Bach, Mozart and Beethoven as a child and then discovered pop music through Bowie and Floyd in his early teens; and despite his lack of formal compositional training has striven to educate himself by studying the scores of the maters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted May 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted May 26, 2018 The A theme is decent but the "Searching" B-theme is way cooler IMO. It has the catchy melody and unexpected twists that Williams is great at. SteveMc, mrbellamy, MikeH and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SteveMc 2,674 Posted May 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted May 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, Batman's Diet Coke said: What happened? What'd I miss? Did Williams drop the ball again? No, I'd say he did just fine. Wrote two pretty good themes and arranged them in a tasteful, energetic suite. Powell surpassed my expectations on the score, though. I highly recommend Mine Mission, Lando's Closet, and Testing Allegiance. ocelot, Breadstick Basilisk and YoYoMama 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 Like most Zimmer scores, you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelot 508 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 11 minutes ago, TGP said: It may be true that for someone with little to no real musical talent it is, at the extreme surface level, easier to fake the Zimmer sound than it is Williams', but from a perspective of real musicianship, both can be faked pretty easily. And in both cases, the fake will never possess the real soul or expression of who it is imitating. So I wouldn't say that Zimmer is easily copied, bearing that in mind. Zimmer's music moves me quite deeply and the imitations don't, however similar they may be in a superficial sense. Hence the many shitty knockoffs of Zimmer's music...and yes, of Williams' too. You don't see anyone running around successfully mimicking either of those styles, not with any real substance. As always, composers should want, and be allowed, to write what they are naturally inclined to. Again, not knocking Zimmer, but with so many people working on each score, firstly I never know who wrote what or if Zimmer actually wrote a lick on that particular score (he did not write one note on Blue Planet II even though it puts him down as one of the composers) so sometimes what we think is Zimmer is not him at all. And why shouldn't his music move you, that's what I mean by subjective, we should love the sounds we love and be moved by whomever. Technically and orchestrally the "best" does not mean everyone should feel that way when listening to it or for them to even like it. I remember a friend coming over once and I had Rachmaninoff's second symphony on (my favorite symphony bar none) and he said "what is this shit? this sounds like something you listen to when you have diarrhea...... I also agree with you that yes, composers should write how they want to or we would all be sheep. Arpy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 Just now, Not Mr. Big said: The A theme is decent but the "Searching" B-theme is way cooler IMO. It has the catchy melody and unexpected twists that Williams is great at. Without a doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelot 508 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, Steve McQueen said: No, I'd say he did just fine. Wrote two pretty good themes and arranged them in a tasteful, energetic suite. Powell surpassed my expectations on the score, though. I highly recommend Mine Mission, Lando's Closet, and Testing Allegiance. Yes but here's an example of what I mean by percussion, in Testing Allegiance, at 1.46, whatever that percussion is, thumps way too loud for an orchestra that I can hardly here all that intricacy in the upper string writing. The percussion should lift the orchestra into the stratosphere rather than muffling it, when you write orchestral percussion it should be behind throwing that orchestra at you with force, rather than the other way around. But love the track either way, it's just the new way of writing for film it seems, and by new I mean the last 10 years... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 39 minutes ago, TGP said: smiley EQing Would you mind explaining what you mean by this? I’m not familiar with the technical aspects of audio mixing or mastering. But this might be something I’ve sort of felt while listening to other scores without being able to put my finger on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeH 768 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 26 minutes ago, Batman's Diet Coke said: What happened? What'd I miss? Did Williams drop the ball again? YoYoMama 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tom 4,653 Posted May 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted May 26, 2018 30 minutes ago, Steve McQueen said: Without a doubt. I don't think it unreasonable to suppose Williams's prefers the B theme. Not only does it get the development in the piece, it receives the coda treatment to close out the piece. It is as if he is saying, here is what modern audiences expect, but I am going to give them something more substantial because I think they need it. Jay, Molly Weasley and SteveMc 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan95 66 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 Did anyone else hear near the start of the movie, there was a background 'join the empire' video playing in the background and it had the imperial march but in a major key. I remember they did that in Rebels once and I wondered, could that actually be the version from Rebels? It's probably a new recording but then it was just so brief in the movie. Anyone else know more about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt C 452 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 4 hours ago, Batman's Diet Coke said: What happened? What'd I miss? Did Williams drop the ball again? Listen to it for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Arpy 4,145 Posted May 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted May 26, 2018 The opening of the track reminds me of the opening of the Gusty Gardens Galaxy theme from Super Mario Galaxy: Molly Weasley, Not Mr. Big and Breadstick Basilisk 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyy38 21 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 32 minutes ago, Matt C said: Listen to it for yourself. The signature riffing, touches and licks of Williams are here. A cohesive theme is still missing though and that is sad. Nothing to take from the theater, except *nothing*. And 3:51 to explain a point that was done in 1:32 in STAR WARS is a bit indulgent. Sooner or later, ALL good things come to an end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Arpy 4,145 Posted May 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted May 26, 2018 The theme is cohesive as fuck. What on Earth are you dribbling about? crlbrg, YoYoMama, pete and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filmmusic 1,826 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 Would you say that the theme at 0.57-1.13 is a 3rd theme or it's a b section of the previous 2nd theme? In the leak of the lead sheet we had, it seemed to be a b section of the 1st hero theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,006 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 7 hours ago, TGP said: Yeah I was going to say that, pretty sure it's all jammed live. What makes it sound a little synthetic, and the rest of the mix actually, is the damn smiley EQing that happens with a lot of Powell's scores. Could do without that. Yeah, the mix is somewhat of a mixed bag. Making it all sound bit too "plastic". Think this is what puts some of the people off and...also attracts all the crowd that loved TFA and TLJ trailer music. Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Omen II 1,235 Posted May 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted May 26, 2018 Do you find yourself singing, "Han Solo is in, Han Solo is in Star Wars! Han Solo is in, Han Solo is in STAR WARS!" at about 38 seconds in? If not, you will now. I was a little worried from the title that it would be a whimsical piece in the vein of The Adventures of Mutt (which I have never really cared for), but I really like it. SteveMc, crocodile and Loert 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreotnip 0 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 I think ONE the best music material from John Powell is NOT in the soundtrack album: that beaultiful - hauntingly 2 part - melody with modern percussion and classical strings from DRYDEN VOS PARTY...when that golden singer plays that tune, and soon after, with that background party music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Loert 2,511 Posted May 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted May 26, 2018 Something that I love about the "Searching" theme from TAOH is that it has great rhythmic flexibility. Consider these three different approaches of accentuating the notes in the melody: Pattern #1 is based on how the music is actually notated and conducted. It is also how JW introduces it for the first time in TAOH, from 0:37 (focus on the bass). Pattern #2 is the "naive" beat - it is what the naive listener would hear when listening to the melody on its own. Pattern #3 is a natural extension of #2 and is what I would call the "disfigured 2/2" where rather than 1:1 you get a 4:5 ratio between the beats. They are three different beat patterns yet they all work naturally with the melody. And you can easily create more, e.g. by removing the 2nd beat of pattern #1, or the third beat from pattern #2. In the same way that Han is searching for a sense of fulfillment in his soul, this theme is "searching" for a sense of rhythmic stability. And Powell does end up playing with some of these rhythms in the score, particularly in Corellia Chase. For instance, that awesome transition from 2:07 is to me just an exploitation of pattern 3: And what's more, Powell also exploits pattern #2 as a counter-beat in some of his cues, i.e. whenever the Searching theme is played as a counter-melody, by virtue of its implicit "naive" beat generation. For example, if you listen from 1:58, the mere inclusion of the Searching theme in the background (played by strings, accentuated by trumpets) adds another layer of rhythm to the music which is independent, by the way, of the underlying drum rhythm which, all things considered, goes something like : | U o o U U U U o o | ('U' indicates an accented note, 'o' is unaccented, '|' is a bar line. The important point here is that it is not | U o U o U U U o o |). In short, the Searching theme yields a whole plethora of rhythmic possibilities AS IT IS, which is atypical of the usual Williams theme. EDIT: Here's something else that's cool: Looking at pattern #2, you can see that the first 3 beats are identical in rhythm to the whole of pattern #1. That is, if you take the first three beats of pattern #2 and stretch them out 1.5x, to fill a whole 9/8 bar, you get pattern #1. Well, this is exactly how Powell transforms the Searching theme, at 2:24: SteveMc, Sharkissimo, Ricard and 7 others 7 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 I just love that trumpet version of that theme at 00:59. The chord progress, those maj7 chords😍 ocelot and crlbrg 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,006 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 6 minutes ago, hornist said: I just love that trumpet version of that theme at 00:59. The chord progress, those maj7 chords😍 I wonder what you're going to say about the rest of the score. I'm really curious. Karol Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 I cant listen to it, only the first track😜 I hate that synth-sounding, generic percussion writing😨😨😨 Williams uses percussion brilliantly in his SW scores!!! ocelot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 1 hour ago, hornist said: I cant listen to it, only the first track😜 I hate that synth-sounding, generic percussion writing😨😨😨 Williams uses percussion brilliantly in his SW scores!!! @hornist, do give Mine Mission and Lando's Closet a listen. Some fine writing there. crlbrg and Mattris 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlgrain 1 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 Really enjoyed the film last night. Will be soaking in the soundtrack this weekend. The little I heard on the way home from the theater was really fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TheUlyssesian 2,478 Posted May 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted May 26, 2018 So having hard this a few times... The Hero theme surprisingly is a bit bone-headed. It is your typical manly man modern hero macho theme in the form of a power anthem that you expect modern composers to write. I did not have a good initial reaction to it but I have made Peace with it. Has Williams ever written a theme like this? I kinda had the same reaction to it that I had when I heard Gia's hero theme for spiderman. Just a very basic construction. The Searching theme however is a belter. The theme was stuck in my head. I was whistling it constantly while driving home. It is also a more sophisticated construction and more star warsy. The hero theme is like a superhero theme. The concert suite itself is very exciting and unusual. Honestly with a few microedits, this might as well be a score cue which is scoring a desperate high stakes chase sequence. Think quidditch or any number of high octane chase scenes that Williams has scored. The strident rhtym and the insistent motif (sounds like the quidditch motif) give the piece an extraordinary forward drive. It is a fantastic piece and the searching theme takes flight. I love it. Hearing this, and seeing the film has soooooooo many chase scenes. I wonder what kind of magic Williams would have unleashed. Mattris, Not Mr. Big, SteveMc and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 The A theme reminds me of Silvestri, like his Captain America theme or the minor key variations of the main theme in Ready Player One (a lot of that one actually) Arpy and Will 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 15 hours ago, Disco Stu said: Would you mind explaining what you mean by this? I’m not familiar with the technical aspects of audio mixing or mastering. But this might be something I’ve sort of felt while listening to other scores without being able to put my finger on it. It's just EQing that either boosts the high and low frequencies relative to the mids, or cuts the mids relative to the highs and lows. The resulting curve is like a smile. On some types of music it works well but I find it sounds tinny and artificial when applied to symphonic stuff and when there's percussion like this it leads it a sort of cheap, no body sound which is what I reckon is rubbing people the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 Zimmer's most heinous contribution to modern soundtracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 Other than one or two early entries like Backdraft I can't think of any Zimmer scores with that problem. Alan Meyerson always delivers a very rich, full sound. Lots of 70s symphonic scores suffer from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,653 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 2 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said: So having hard this a few times... The Hero theme surprisingly is a bit bone-headed. It is your typical manly man modern hero macho theme in the form of a power anthem that you expect modern composers to write. I did not have a good initial reaction to it but I have made Peace with it. Has Williams ever written a theme like this? I kinda had the same reaction to it that I had when I heard Gia's hero theme for spiderman. Just a very basic construction. No Man's Land from War Horse has a similar "power anthem" feel to it, but that theme is a bit more malleable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Nick Parker 3,040 Posted May 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted May 26, 2018 Perhaps this is a point that has been made in this thread if not years prior, but I find it so strange that when Williams (or apparently other composers like Powell) uses certain devices in recent years, or does things with a certain economy, some immediately launch into the belief that they have been stricken with the "RCP virus" and that their writing has been "tainted". Especially considering that some of these Williams has been using for decades! Is it really so much a stretch, for example, to believe that No Man's Land was written by the man who wrote On The Tank? Or that the man who wrote Munich also wrote Black Sunday thirty years prior? If anything, I find it very inspiring that a composer with the magnitude of John Williams, after decades upon decades of experience in fields of music that can be very dense and complex, still tries to find the Occam's Razor of what makes a piece of music "speak" to a listener and/or filmgoer. Sharkissimo, crlbrg, SteveMc and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,653 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 I like Han's theme a lot, but those who have a problem with the "power anthem" approach likely think it is beneath Williams. A power anthem is like a rock ballad--it does not take an incredible amount of talent to accomplish (hence the ballad's of the 80s). That is not to say they lack enjoyability, but they are not necessarily a sign of singular talent. Williams has proved he does possess singular talent, so some may not want him to do what many, many other can do, but rather focus on what makes him unique (or at least in the upper-echelon of composers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 Joni Wiljami and MikeH 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,802 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 The Jurassic Park theme uses "pop chords", but I haven't heard anyone complain about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaeon 593 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 Jurassic Park is set in the 1990s. Star Wars is set in the 1940s. Ricardo Mortimer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeH 768 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 Uhhhh.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 16 minutes ago, Pellaeon said: Jurassic Park is set in the 1990s. Star Wars is set in the 1940s. Which is why there's a big ol' flanging ARP 2600 in Return of the Jedi. Pure 40s! FFS MikeH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laserschwert 475 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 Somehow Han's theme reminds me of this: Arpy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 50 minutes ago, Tom said: I like Han's theme a lot, but those who have a problem with the "power anthem" approach likely think it is beneath Williams. A power anthem is like a rock ballad--it does not take an incredible amount of talent to accomplish (hence the ballad's of the 80s). That is not to say they lack enjoyability, but they are not necessarily a sign of singular talent. Williams has proved he does possess singular talent, so some may not want him to do what many, many other can do, but rather focus on what makes him unique (or at least in the upper-echelon of composers). I think it does take a good deal of talent and musical sense to write a truly good rock ballad/power anthem. Not all the ballads of the 80s were drivel. As for Williams employing parallel techniques, well, that is just another example of the varied tools in his musical arsenal that he can pull out when he feels the project needs it. MikeH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 In this thread: musical philosophasters who don’t write music professionally explaining how difficult it is to write a particular kind of melody. Dixon Hill and Joni Wiljami 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaeon 593 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 27 minutes ago, Sharky said: Which is why there's a big ol' flanging ARP 2600 in Return of the Jedi. Pure 40s! Fair enough. I’d simply make the argument that there are elements of futurism and retro-futurism in Star Wars, and that retro-futurism is what made the 1977 film so high concept (Old Hollywood! Flash Gordon Serials! WW2 Newsreels! Kurosawa!). By 1983 that element is largely obscured, and the franchise becomes mostly self-referential. But my point is that the further afield the aesthetics get from the 1977 film and its influences, the more off they seem. This retro element, by the way, is no different from the Indiana Jones retro element; it’s just more obvious in IJ because the story is set in the 1930s. But that’s just window dressing—again, what makes IJ so high concept is the deliberately dated pulp storytelling style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve H 24 Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 Chicken In The Pot sounds like a track from Goldfrapp. Which is not a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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