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Williams confirms EPISODE IX !!


Amer

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Nick, you also make a good point about the parallels between what some people have to say about Shore, and what some people have to say about Williams.  These levels of musical snobbery are equally distasteful.  Film music fans can ill afford to fight amongst themselves when the whole art form is derided by another echelon of twits altogether!

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Hell, true snobs of classical music often look down on romantic music (to which most orchestral film scores belong) and/or programmatic music (which films scores are by definition) altogether.

 

That the layman knows orchestral music as "classical" really is a shame.

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23 minutes ago, TGP said:

 

This is where you get into trouble.  You want to present a "like what you like, it's all ok!" attitude, but this reads more like "most people like unsophisticated music."  And the notion that it's because he can't is just baseless, really - contrary to his own words about limiting the harmonic scope of the scores, and not held up by some of his other music which can be harmonically quite outlandish and adventurous - Spider, The Brood, Naked Lunch, Scanners...this would just be a small taster.

 

It is these slight hints of derision, ever so slight, that I think gets people rightfully argumentative, and it's why this subject always comes up.

 

14 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

 

I disagree with much of your post, but you lay out your argument in your first paragraph reasonably well, which I respect your doing even if again I disagree with your thesis.

 

But I do take issue with this, your second paragraph. What you're essentially saying is "The LOTR score is simplistic crap. That's OK, some people like simplistic crap. So hey, whatever floats your boat, you simple person who likes simplistic crap".

 

Bullshit. When you do this you're not just insulting the work, your questioning why someone likes the work...and insulting them to boot. Don't do that. You're much more persuasive when you just stick to your argument without suggesting that someone who likes something you dislike has less sophisticated taste. And you especially can't get away with that when you write stuff like "it's symphonic Enya."  To quote Harold Bloom, that's not even good rubbish.  And it's frankly an argument I hear classic music snobs make about Williams...it's simple, it's less sophisticated, it's crowd pleasing crap.  We can debate the merits of the LOTR score.  But everything shuts down when you insult the taste of people who appreciate it.  You're not going to convince anyone that way.

 

On the other hand, I whole heartedly agree with you about Wagner.

Meh, I don't think that is what I am saying. I love Britney Spears for crying out loud, lol.... That's who I work out to and other simple dance music remixes that have maybe 2 chords throughout with a beat?! And in composition post grad schools I fought against snobs and teachers who put down Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky, Puccini, Goldsmith and Williams as simple and meaning nothing and how it's throwaway. I'm definitely not a musical snob. So if I came off that way, it's not actually my intent. But the world is going towards a simpler taste. Most people gravitate to simple harmony and music. Anything complicated goes above most people's heads, and does not hit emotionally to them. That is my point. I might have said it in a crappy way, I'm just being honest. Even pop music has become simpler, and that is already the simplest form of music. Take The Beatles. Simple music but there is harmony and the songs tell a story. Now take Beyoncé. Some of her biggest hits are essentially one chord throughout the whole song. But they are the biggest money makers for a reason. People do not want and can not handle complicated music and harmony. BTW I think Horner's Titanic is Symphonic Enya too, and that also won best score :) (I do not like it at all though)

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3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Indeed.

 

It's not forbidden or anything, just taboo.

 

Have you seen Wagner & Me?

 

If you haven't, I highly recommend it to anyone who loves Wagner. Seeing Stephen Fry, a Jew, come to grips with his passion for Wagner is interesting & inspiring. It's incredibly entertaining to boot and you can watch it in its entirety on Youtube.

 

 

 

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Titanic isn't symphonic Enya, it's just Braveheart 2.00. I like the original better.

 

6 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

Have you seen Wagner & Me?

 

Sure, but a rewatch never hurts.

 

Its a shame, really. In high-school, Wagner is only mentioned through his anti-semetic statements, within the context of the background to the Nazi brand of antisemitism. So the impression one is left with is that he was a loud-mouth, wannabe composer. The extent of his musical genius is never shown.

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6 hours ago, ocelot said:

People do not want and can not handle complicated music and harmony. BTW I think Horner's Titanic is Symphonic Enya too, and that also won best score :) (I do not like it at all though)

 

True but i do not consider Williams 'complicated', either (he can be in spots, but still...).

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5 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

True but i do not consider Williams 'complicated', either (he can be in spots, but still...).

Actually If you study many of his scores and his concert works, he can get very complicated harmonically. Have you looked at the score to 5 Sacred Trees? Even SW TPM has some really challenging harmonies and rhythms. I am not talking about his thematic material here. And I think that is his genius in keeping those very simple and very catchy. He is a tunesmith. I'm talking about the meat and potatoes of some of his scores. Again, that is not to say that anyone should like them or that there isn't other more complicated music with tons of other composers.

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10 hours ago, ocelot said:

 I understand why it hits people more emotionally than Williams's writing. The simplicity of harmony and the pop cadence to his (Shore's) writing is what people nowadays are used to, it's like symphonic Enya. World music that is just emotion but with no heart or substance really. He doesn't go harmonically anywhere interesting or complex because he simply cannot go there, not because he does not want to. 

 

3 hours ago, ocelot said:

And I think that is his (Williams) genius in keeping those very simple and very catchy. He is a tunesmith.

 

So when Shore's music is simple, it's because he "can't go there", but when Williams is simple it's because he's a genius? Williams simplicity makes him a "tunesmith" but when Shore is simple he lacks complexity, heart and substance?

 

Hmmmm.

 

 

 

 

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Shore's themes are simplistic, boring and unmemorable, so it doesn't matter how intricately they are developed. Ocelot's right it's like listening to some sort of symphonic new age music

 

And I'm not only comparing him to Williams and Star Wars . II can't say any of Shore's themes are memorable compared the hundreds of scores from other composers I've listened too either.

 

To this day i don't understand the cult like following the LotR and Hobbit scores have and some people  placing them at the pinnacle of film music.

 

 

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41 minutes ago, king mark said:

Shore's themes are simplistic, boring and unmemorable, so it doesn't matter how intricately they are developed. Ocelot's right it's like listening to some sort of symphonic new age music

 

And I'm not only comparing him to Williams and Star Wars . II can't say any of Shore's themes are memorable compared the hundreds of scores from other composers I've listened too either.

 

To this day i don't understand the cult like following the LotR and Hobbit scores have and some people  placing them at the pinnacle of film music.

 

 

 

I generally find them a pleasant listen, but god there's an awful lot of it to wade through! Sometimes I'll just listen to the symphony to get my LOTR fix and be done with it.

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46 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

 

It is a pity, even if I do understand the feelings about Wagner there, it's a lot to stomach. Even without the unfortunate Nazi connection (which obviously isn't his fault), Wagner was still anti-Semitic to at least some degree.

 

That said, even if there is a taboo on performing his work publicly, in school people should still be given a balanced view of his indisputable musical genius, despite his personal views...it's doing a disservice if he's described as wannabe.

 

Indeed.

 

I don't think its that much of an issue, though. He was antisemetic (and generally a very acerbic man at times) but that's true of so many people in the arts and entertainment buisness, and we generally don't shun their works off the way we do Wagner's, much less after such a long time.

 

I never found the Nazi issue to be particularly relevant, as it happened long after the composer had died. Its not his "fault" that Hitler loved his music. Hell, we play Strauss' music, and he was employed by the Nazi party for a short period of time.

 

I also always ask people on this subject: if Mozart was antisemetic, would his music be banned? Because Wagner is of that very stature.

 

By the way, Howard Shore is also Jewish, and he clearly LOVES Wagner's music.

 

1 hour ago, king mark said:

Shore's themes are simplistic, boring and unmemorable, so it doesn't matter how intricately they are developed. Ocelot's right it's like listening to some sort of symphonic new age music

 

I find his main tunes for the various films to be as memorable as anything out there. You don't need every single theme in the catalog to be particularly memorable (you don't see people humming the Boba Fett motif either, right?). Once you have one or two big tunes per film, you can have as many little motives as you want, and that's what Shore does.

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Sometimes I wish I could still find the enthusiasm in me to debate people here in paragraphs, but alas I'm far too lazy for it nowadays. Plus it's always something I already typed out long ago and on numerous occasions. It becomes rather repetitive after many years, dontcha think? 

 

So anyway, I'll just be the lowest common denominator here instead with nuggets like this:

 

The arrival of the Rohirrim and the The Battle of the Pelennor Fields > anything from Star Wars 1-8.

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2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Try telling that to the current Israeli minister of culture.

 

You'll risk giving her an aneurysm.

 

Ha! But those attitudes do not help those of us who want to teach the history of art and culture. I worry about this stuff a lot. It can have a stagnating effect on culture and robs people of so much enjoyment. It's also too often hypocritical and selective. Is every artist who was sexist or racist or held slaves or hated disabled people also banned? I get that some subjects are touchier for some people than others, but if the issue is repulsive views = banning, then why stop at just one kind of repulsive view?

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Indeed.

 

But its not that big of an issue. Like I said, its not like his music is banned in any formal way (after all, we are a western democracy) its just a taboo, and one that is gradually wearing out, as we get further and further removed from the memories of World War II.

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Yeah, I understand. Though I think social pressure can be almost as (or more) powerful than laws. But time does help to heal these things and allow a certain level of nuance, so that's good.

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20 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

 

Now see, @Chen G. take note. THIS is a really bold opinion. And it is Jurassic Shark's right to state it.

 

It's completely, utterly, and inarguably wrong. Perhaps one of the wrongest opinions ever expressed on this board. But it is, nonetheless, bold. Wrong. But boldly wrong! ;)

 

A personal assessment about art is never wrong, as art is highly subjective. This seems to be difficult to fathom for you and some other LOTR-fanboys on this forum. ;)

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15 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

A personal assessment about art is never wrong, as art is highly subjective. This seems to be difficult to fathom for you and some other LOTR-fanboys on this forum. ;)

 

99.999% of the time you'd be right, De gustibus non eat disputandum and all that. But this is the .001% of the time you'd be wrong.  The Lord of the Rings scores are masterpieces.  

 

On this subject there can be no dispute.

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21 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

A personal assessment about art is never wrong, as art is highly subjective. This seems to be difficult to fathom for you and some other LOTR-fanboys on this forum. ;)

 

Dismissing those who feel strongly about a certain work as "fanboys" is certainly not the best way to prove an argument. And yes, as Nick stated above, they are indeed masterpieces.

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1 minute ago, JohnSolo said:

Dismissing those who feel strongly about a certain work as "fanboys" is certainly not the best way to prove an argument.

 

I wouldn't say how Nick "proves" his arguments are any better. You reap what you sow.

 

Just now, JohnSolo said:

And yes, as Nick stated above, they are indeed masterpieces.

 

That's certainly your opinion, which I respect. It's just not mine.

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7 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

I wouldn't say how Nick "proves" his arguments are any better. You reap what you sow.

 

 

Oh yeah!? Why don't you go ask Steef to prove that Star Trek is better than everything!

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51 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

How rude!

 

Why?

 

On 1/14/2018 at 5:43 PM, Quintus said:

Funnyily enough, there's some badass glock towards the end of this cue as it crescendos:

 

I love the dramatic buildup in the second half of the Spark! JW should make a 5 minute concert arrangement of it!

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7 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

 

 

So when Shore's music is simple, it's because he "can't go there", but when Williams is simple it's because he's a genius? Williams simplicity makes him a "tunesmith" but when Shore is simple he lacks complexity, heart and substance?

 

Hmmmm.

 

 

 

 

Even when Williams is simple, he writes memorable themes that you remember and can hum. His themes also are not one line statements. Take any big theme he has written. Be it the Jurassic Park theme, Superman, ET, Jaws, Any Star Wars big theme, Indiana Jones, Memoirs of a Geisha, Schindler's List, etc etc etc etc, the themes aren't simple in their structure and they tell a story. There is an A section, a B section, sometimes even a C section before returning to A. There is STRUCTURE. There is reason in the writing. Apart from the song Shore wrote for the last LOTR, where is any other theme with that type of actual writing structure? He writes motifs, sure, simple one line statements like William's Kylo Ren Motif, Poe's Motif, but not actual themes. Don't turn that argument around on my head because it is so not the same, lol. Please Girl! Don't go there!

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Yeah I'm done with dumb arguments. Like I said, enjoy what you want to enjoy, when it comes to the listening experience, it's subjective, and there is something for everyone.

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Marcus, I agree with your whole point that the LOTR scores aren't orchestral 'adventures', but would like to point out that I found the live concerts quite rewarding to listen to. I'm sure I haven't attended enough other concerts, but ther was something incredibly satisfying about hearing the chanting choirs, for example.

 

And as much as I like JW's music, his dense style has a major disadvantage: the number of downright bad re-recordings is simply uncountable.

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14 minutes ago, ocelot said:

Take any big theme he has written. Be it the Jurassic Park theme, Superman, ET, Jaws, Any Star Wars big theme, Indiana Jones, Memoirs of a Geisha, Schindler's List, etc etc etc etc, the themes aren't simple in their structure and they tell a story. There is an A section, a B section, sometimes even a C section before returning to A.

 

There are more than enough long-lined themes in Shore's catalog, as there are plenty of short motives in Williams'.

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13 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

And as much as I like JW's music, his dense style has a major disadvantage: the number of downright bad re-recordings is simply uncountable.

Do you think that is because of his writing or some orchestras not being able to play them well? Because in concerts here in LA and in London that I have gone to, be it the LA Phil or LSO or Royal Phil, they play them beautifully. I would chalk bad recordings (and live concerts) to there being far too many mediocre to pretty bad orchestras out there not being able to handle balance and play in tune and in time.

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26 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

There are more than enough long-lined themes in Shore's catalog, as there are plenty of short motives in Williams'.

But JW's themes are much, much longer and make repetitions not only tolerable, but enjoyable. Listen to the mock-ups on the rarities archives and then tell me you weren't bored to death. Shore needs an entire film score before he considers variations on themes.

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6 hours ago, idril said:

 

If we couldn't teach the works of artists/composers/writers of yesteryear who held views we now recognise as problematic, we'd live in a pretty hollowed-out culture. Nothing would be permissible. Wagner's biography is very interesting but it is something to study in itself, it doesn't change his musical genius. No doubt we could dig up a thousand #metoo stories on most of the famous artistic geniuses of history! But it's not as if we're supporting them financially by appreciating their music now, or furthering their careers despite continued hatred or misdeeds. So I don't see the harm in prioritising Wagner (or anyone else's) genius over their troubling views or actions.

And it's not like many artists throughout history didn't have views and actions that we now see as not conducive to modern day living, thought or ideas. From hating other religions and races to slavery to misogyny etc etc etc... At some point we should separate the artist from the person. It's like this dumb dumb dumb thing in Saudi Arabia. Pokémon Go is banned there, actually anything Pokemon is banned because they deem it a Jewish Conspiracy... WTF, lol, I mean even a Japanese cartoon is being blamed on the Jews?

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12 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

But JW's themes are much, much longer and make repetitions not only tolerable, but enjoyable. Listen to the mock-ups on the rarities archives and then tell me you weren't bored to death. Shore needs an entire film score before he considers variations on themes.

 

About the only mock-ups I don't care for are the Gondor and Moria ones. The Shire theme with a different B-phrase was very interesting to hear. A good example of a theme as long-winded and as memorable as any Williams' one.

 

And its true of several of his other themes. Hell, if long ideas are your thing, just listen to the Dwarf Lords!

 

Its not like every thematic idea in a Williams composition is that long. Just one or two principal themes; the rest are short motives. Really, your trying to create a dichotomy between the two scores where there really isn't one.

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The Gondor one is pretty interesting from an evolutionary standpoint (that militaristic percussion, the major key, and the panflute - which eventually did become one of Gondor's instruments, even if not as forefront as the Hardanger), but yeah, it gets pretty tedious to actually sit through.

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