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The Mandalorian SHOW discussion - Spoilers Allowed for all aired episodes


Faleel

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8 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:


Which is exactly why I’m so glad we got an intriguing, risky and multi-layered interpretation of the character in the sequels. I’ll end my discussion about TLJ here because I think it speaks for itself and doesn’t need defending, but if I had to choose again between a story about Luke in which he continues to grow and learn as a character and approaches conflict in a nonviolent manner, or a montage of him slicing down baddies with his laser sword like a badass I will always choose the former. It’s just so much more satisfying upon reflection, and says so much more about him as a person.

I’m hesitant to pick up the TLJ debate again because how quickly nowhere that goes, but I will say that the Thrawn Trilogy managed to do all of that whilst still being a natural continuation of ROTJ and faithful to the character. The important distinction here I think is that Luke faces new challenges and experiences, rather than repeating the mistakes of his past to an even more extreme and baffling level.

 

Basically what I’m trying to get at is that TLJ and The Mandalorian are two extremes, but there is a balance in the middle that was achieved for the OT and honestly in most of the original EU material

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If/when Luke and Ahsoka do meet, it would be such a powerful moment and it would probably make more sense for it to be in the Ahsoka show because yes, The Mandalorian is about Din not Ahsoka and Luke. They could even have Anakin as a force ghost and all 3 of them could meet. The father, son and apprentice

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5 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

I'll say it again, and more explicitly: Luke was not in the finale to be a full character, he's established to be the most powerful Jedi alive at that point in Star Wars, with his primary function to deliver Grogu from Din, and deliver some fan service as a bonus.  That's it. Ironically, these "missed opportunities" people speak of would draw away focus from Mando. And we don't want anymore of that.

Sure, I just don’t get why people would praise the hell out of the bare minimum

 

8 hours ago, mstrox said:

IMO if we're worried about what any particular movie/episode/story/scene/comic/book etc. portends for the future of Star Wars storytelling, we're taking all this fun space laser romance stuff way too seriously.

You’ve missed my grander point. It’s not about a specific scene in anything, it’s about the overall market expectation that is being communicated to Disney about the franchise. If there’s not a significant pushback on the writing, then that standard is unlikely to ever increase and nor is a greater focus likely to be put on such a thing in production. 9.9/10 on IMDb for this caliber of writing is quite worrying.

 

Shocking as this may be, this “fun space laser romance stuff” as you so dismissively put it, is not fun at all for me when it’s poorly written. I would like one of my favourite franchises to achieve the quality bars of the past, so that when new entries come out I am not disappointed or frustrated but rather pleasantly surprised. I don’t think that’s too much to ask for any series, really.

 

 

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I use my description with love and not disdain.  I liked or loved four of the five Disney Star Wars movies, all of Mandalorian, and one of the two Disney animated series.   I read the comics and the books.  I’m in on SW.  

 

This whole thing started because George Lucas couldn’t get the rights for Flash Gordon, so that’s how I treat it.

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28 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I use my description with love and not disdain.  I liked or loved four of the five Disney Star Wars movies, all of Mandalorian, and one of the two Disney animated series.   I read the comics and the books.  I’m in on SW.  

 

This whole thing started because George Lucas couldn’t get the rights for Flash Gordon, so that’s how I treat it.

When I said dismissive I didn’t mean you had disdain for the franchise, I meant that you were using it as an excuse for allowing poor writing.

 

There’s a fine distinction between goofy and incompetent, and as an example I’ll compare the Stormtroopers of the OT to the ones of the Mandalorian. In ANH and ROTJ, they were goofy but not incompetent. In ESB they were ruthless, efficient and barely gave our heroes a moment to breath with no moments of comedic levity - which suited the film’s tone. In the Mandalorian they are not goofy, they are just very incompetent.

 

Flash Gordon is but one of many influences for Star Wars so it seems silly to just distil it down to the level of Flash Gordon. Especially when you consider more ‘serious’ and thoughtful media like Akira Kurosawa’s films were a huge influence as well. Given that the original movies have stood the test of time in large part due to their very tight scripts and well written characters, I would expect that to be a big focus for the franchise going forward - and in some cases it was. Now however, I see only that happening in the publication side of things and never in the media.

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2 minutes ago, Datameister said:

Personally, I draw a distinction between taking them seriously and analyzing them seriously. You can acknowledge they're just fun mythical romps in space while also enjoying deeper discussions of what works (or doesn't work) for you and why. People only start to lose me in Star Wars discussions when they start claiming that Lucas/Kennedy/whoever destroyed their childhood or whatever. That's taking it too seriously. But as far as I'm concerned, the TLJ lovers and the TLJ haters can engage in futile debate till the cows come home if that's what floats their boat, if you'll forgive the mixed metaphor.

Couldn't have put it better myself, and yeah when you start getting emotional to the point of directing legitimate rage towards the people involved - that's what I'd consider taking it way too seriously and lacking a severe amount of perspective

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It boggles my mind that there's people out there who are still well into Star Wars even now, to the degree that they still enjoy deconstructing the mythos in order to analyse and intensely debate it with others, even after they grew up. It's like Star Wars never stops mattering for some people. 

 

To me, The Mandalorian was just a new show I started watching this year, it had some cool moments. I'll watch season 3. I couldn't think of anything worse than really getting into it with someone. It's not interesting enough, and it just wouldn't hold up to much scrutiny. 

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9 hours ago, Datameister said:

Personally, I draw a distinction between taking them seriously and analyzing them seriously. You can acknowledge they're just fun mythical romps in space while also enjoying deeper discussions of what works (or doesn't work) for you and why. People only start to lose me in Star Wars discussions when they start claiming that Lucas/Kennedy/whoever destroyed their childhood or whatever. That's taking it too seriously. But as far as I'm concerned, the TLJ lovers and the TLJ haters can engage in futile debate till the cows come home if that's what floats their boat, if you'll forgive the mixed metaphor.

Usually it doesn't start with aim to analyse a film. It starts with a feeling that something is out of place. Then you ask yourself why. Then there are two places to look at for answering that question why you are feeling thisway. First is yourself, second is the film. 

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5 hours ago, Quintus said:

It boggles my mind that there's people out there who are still well into Star Wars even now, to the degree that they still enjoy deconstructing the mythos in order to analyse and intensely debate it with others, even after they grew up. It's like Star Wars never stops mattering for some people. 

 

To me, The Mandalorian was just a new show I started watching this year, it had some cool moments. I'll watch season 3. I couldn't think of anything worse than really getting into it with someone. It's not interesting enough, and it just wouldn't hold up to much scrutiny. 

 

Imagine that...liking something, and then, a while later...still liking it! Sounds like a real psycho to me.

 

@GerateWohl, I totally agree.

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On 12/30/2020 at 10:08 PM, DarthDementous said:

The scene worked very well for you and many others it seems, but that is what I’m concerned about - that the bar has been set so low that this is what garners significant praise

 

Its too easy, surface-level, and manipulative for me to praise it. There was no depth to Luke’s appearance beyond ‘look at this legendary character’ which is a huge missed opportunity considering the kind of characters he could’ve interacted with. Characters that have strong ties to his and his father’s past.

The bar was set by Disney. All fans wanted for 30 years was to see Luke in his prime and being something like was written in the EU books. That's all. They didn't want him showing up as a bag man quitting on everybody and then dying. 

 

Fan service? Maybe. But throw the fans a bone. They've been waiting for 30 years. 

On 12/30/2020 at 10:08 PM, DarthDementous said:

The scene worked very well for you and many others it seems, but that is what I’m concerned about - that the bar has been set so low that this is what garners significant praise

 

Its too easy, surface-level, and manipulative for me to praise it. There was no depth to Luke’s appearance beyond ‘look at this legendary character’ which is a huge missed opportunity considering the kind of characters he could’ve interacted with. Characters that have strong ties to his and his father’s past.

The bar was set by Disney. All fans wanted for 30 years was to see Luke in his prime and being something like was written in the EU books. That's all. They didn't want him showing up as a bag man quitting on everybody and then dying. 

 

Fan service? Maybe. But throw the fans a bone. They've been waiting for 30 years. 

On 12/30/2020 at 10:08 PM, DarthDementous said:

The scene worked very well for you and many others it seems, but that is what I’m concerned about - that the bar has been set so low that this is what garners significant praise

 

Its too easy, surface-level, and manipulative for me to praise it. There was no depth to Luke’s appearance beyond ‘look at this legendary character’ which is a huge missed opportunity considering the kind of characters he could’ve interacted with. Characters that have strong ties to his and his father’s past.

The bar was set by Disney. All fans wanted for 30 years was to see Luke in his prime and being something like was written in the EU books. That's all. They didn't want him showing up as a bag man quitting on everybody and then dying. 

 

Fan service? Maybe. But throw the fans a bone. They've been waiting for 30 years. 

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1 hour ago, stewdog1 said:

The bar was set by Disney. All fans wanted for 30 years was to see Luke in his prime and being something like was written in the EU books. That's all. They didn't want him showing up as a bag man quitting on everybody and then dying. 

 

Fan service? Maybe. But throw the fans a bone. They've been waiting for 30 years. 

The bar was set by Disney. All fans wanted for 30 years was to see Luke in his prime and being something like was written in the EU books. That's all. They didn't want him showing up as a bag man quitting on everybody and then dying. 

 

Fan service? Maybe. But throw the fans a bone. They've been waiting for 30 years. 

The bar was set by Disney. All fans wanted for 30 years was to see Luke in his prime and being something like was written in the EU books. That's all. They didn't want him showing up as a bag man quitting on everybody and then dying. 

 

Fan service? Maybe. But throw the fans a bone. They've been waiting for 30 years. 


But the real question is, was the bar set by Disney hmm

In all seriousness, I'd like the fans (myself included) to be thrown a whole skeleton than just a bone. I'm not going to praise anything if the bar is already so low, the weird thing is that the bone is being treated like a skeleton. It's not people going 'ah, this is a step in the right direction but there's still much that needs to be done', it's hyperbolic declarations about how all is forgiven and how Disney has saved Star Wars.

I think, ultimately, my goal is to make people realise that being more critical about the product you are given is beneficial for everyone. Even if you think that people are being nitpicky or blowing things out of proportion, if it leads to an actual change then things can only improve from where they currently are. If a horde of people complain that the writing is extremely lazy, and they're making it clear that they don't want to watch the show while it's like that, then it'll encourage a retargeting of focus where the tendons or ligaments of the story can be strengthened. You might be complacent with the current state of the writing, but that means if it were to change then it'd just strengthen the overall product in your eyes rather than detract from it. I've never heard a reasonable person say something like 'y'know all the visuals were great, but the script was just much too tight and characters did things that would make sense for the world and their motivations'


A lot of body-related imagery applies to this topic it seems...

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3 hours ago, stewdog1 said:

Fan service? Maybe. 

The bar was set by Disney. All fans wanted for 30 years was to see Luke in his prime and being something like was written in the EU books. That's all. They didn't want him showing up as a bag man quitting on everybody and then dying. 

 

Sounds reasonable enough to me. 

 

Basic fan service is more important than professional armchair critics realise, or care to admit. It happened with Superman Returns for example: the long awaited much hyped return of a fondly remembered hero of cinema, theme tune intact. Once the actual fans got the film in their hands though, many were surprised that the end result was an unwantedly angsty and strangely quite gloomy affair, a shadow of the character's tonally quite light and optimistic former self. Even Superman's powers of flight were largely depicted offscreen, the basic visual gratification of the character being strikingly low throughout the film.

 

Fans rejected Superman Returns as being too different from the originals. It isn't really too highly regarded, outside of the the fiscally unimportant fringes. Personally, I didn't mind the movie, but I never watch it.

 

I consider something like that as a lesson unheeded. 

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I agree that fans have some sense of ownership over the characters and franchises they love, and the studios do sadly have to bend to this will, however I'll take depressed, broken, Anti-Luke of TLJ over some souped-up Jedi any day. Fuck fan service, if someone has a creative vision they should follow it, regardless of whatever backlash they'll receive. 

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Even if it's not necessarily a good vision. Just as long as it doesn't involve fan service of any sort, right?

 

I think it's about striking a balance. And besides, healthy fan service makes strong fiscal sense anyway. Artistic merit is a secondary concern in blockbuster theatre. 

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I feel like we're all operating off different definitions of the term 'fan service' here.

To clarify, when I use it, I mean it in a negative sense. I'd probably define it as something done purely for the sake of evoking recognition of past emotions or experiences in people who are well versed in a particular franchise at the expense of the characters or story.

One expense in this case I would say would be Luke as a character, because he's reduced to a plot device who has a rather amorphous presence. There's lots of things about this situation that would make sense to pause on or ask questions, such as where Grogu came from, given he has the same species as his ex-master. Or any acknowledgment towards the Empire being back on this level, or any recognition from Cara Dune who should be well aware who Luke is. For some of this you could hand-wave away by saying that Luke and Grogu were communicating through the Force but I think that's a big cop-out given it's completely invisible to the audience.

 

As for the story, the most significant part is the conclusion of Mando and Grogu's arc where he has to finally let go. I see a lot of people say that doing more with Luke would've undercut that focus however my counterpoint is to not sandwhich Luke's dramatic arrival and moment next to this moment in the first place. Events didn't have to transpire in this way, with the writers writing themselves into a corner that only a legacy character coming in to effortlessly save the day could create any kind of solution. Mando and crew could've come up with a clever way to deal with the Darktroopers, or bargain with Gideon, and then you could have a more quiet and intimate scene after they make it off where Luke (if you absolutely have to make the summoned Jedi Luke), that is able to better sell both the poignance of this character being fully realised in the story as opposed to a cameo, and Mando coming to terms with saying goodbye to Grogu. It would've felt more genuine to the character of Luke, and the story of Mando, if there wasn't a big overindulgent entrance. One nasty writing habit I've noticed in this series is to write things that only make sense in a meta aspect, but when you think about it in the context of the characters experiencing or commenting on things - it wouldn't have the same relevance to them. It's a big immersion killer for me.

 

1 hour ago, Quintus said:

Even if it's not necessarily a good vision. Just as long as it doesn't involve fan service of any sort, right?

 

I think it's about striking a balance. And besides, healthy fan service makes strong fiscal sense anyway. Artistic merit is a secondary concern in blockbuster theatre. 


In current blockbuster theatre, that much is obvious. However, that doesn't mean it's the way things should be, and there are many blockbusters of yore where artistic merit was still paramount. The original Star Wars is one of the first blockbusters as we know them today after all, if not the first (technically it's Jaws, although I'd argue Star Wars had more influence on the medium).

 

I should also add that The Mandalorian is not blockbuster theatre. It's a TV show with a Western flavour that was designed to give us a closer look at a smaller aspect of the Star Wars galaxy, and so is the prime place to tell more intimate, nuanced and character-driven stories. The first season flirted with this idea, and then by the second season it's become a glorified springboard for a Star Wars cinematic universe, very much at the cost of the show.

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50 minutes ago, Jay said:

It was definitely better then running around north California action is the previous episode


The setting may not have been exciting but I loved the fight itself.  I personally have never had a problem with weak-ass stormtroopers like I’ve seen many complaining about.

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Yeah. The California setting wasn't exactly a "feast for the eyes" and the pathetic way Stormtroopers are portrayed robbed the scene of its tension. How are we suppose to feel for the characters if the soldiers they're fighting are utterly incompetent?

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I think the trouble is that a lot of Star Wars storytellers seems to want to show off how badass character X, Y, or Z is, and an easy way to demonstrate that is to have them mow through a bunch of stormtroopers. The idea only truly works if you're used to seeing stormtroopers as a formidable fighting force, though.

 

The beginnings of ANG and TFA do a really good job of this. These guys aren't invincible super soldiers, but they are well-armed and well-trained. They're a force to be reckoned with. Against that backdrop, seeing someone like Chirrut or Boba singlehandedly take out a squad makes them look pretty impressive. But the more often you make the troopers look inept, the less impressive it is to beat them.

 

I should say that I absolutely loved the scout trooper bit near the end of S1. That's the perfect way to do a Stormtroopers Can't Hit Shit gag, if you ask me.

 

@DarthDementous, I like what you said about the contrast between the two seasons. I did enjoy S2, but I prefer the way S1 generally stayed on the periphery of the storylines we usually follow.

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39 minutes ago, Datameister said:

I think the trouble is that a lot of Star Wars storytellers seems to want to show off how badass character X, Y, or Z is, and an easy way to demonstrate that is to have them mow through a bunch of stormtroopers. The idea only truly works if you're used to seeing stormtroopers as a formidable fighting force, though.

 

The beginnings of ANG and TFA do a really good job of this. These guys aren't invincible super soldiers, but they are well-armed and well-trained. They're a force to be reckoned with. Against that backdrop, seeing someone like Chirrut or Boba singlehandedly take out a squad makes them look pretty impressive. But the more often you make the troopers look inept, the less impressive it is to beat them.

 

I should say that I absolutely loved the scout trooper bit near the end of S1. That's the perfect way to do a Stormtroopers Can't Hit Shit gag, if you ask me.

 

@DarthDementous, I like what you said about the contrast between the two seasons. I did enjoy S2, but I prefer the way S1 generally stayed on the periphery of the storylines we usually follow.


Agreed completely on the flaccid nature of trying to make a character badass by having them fight and easily beat an incompetent enemy

 

It’s annoying because it extended to the Darktroopers, who seemed to lack any tactical approach or ability to adapt against their enemy. So when Luke shows up and dispatches them easily, it doesn’t really make him that impressive, especially if you notice how much of a piss poor job the Darktroopers are doing at fighting him in the hallway sequences.

 

I swear one of them literally goes to grab Luke on the shoulder for no reason other than so Luke could slice him up more easily

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2 hours ago, DarthDementous said:


Agreed completely on the flaccid nature of trying to make a character badass by having them fight and easily beat an incompetent enemy

 

It’s annoying because it extended to the Darktroopers, who seemed to lack any tactical approach or ability to adapt against their enemy. So when Luke shows up and dispatches them easily, it doesn’t really make him that impressive, especially if you notice how much of a piss poor job the Darktroopers are doing at fighting him in the hallway sequences.

 

I swear one of them literally goes to grab Luke on the shoulder for no reason other than so Luke could slice him up more easily

 

I mean, at least we had clear and extremely recent examples of them being a real threat.

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There was no fan service in the Original Trilogy. Never did a character get introduced with the characterization gaps already filled in some other medium. Whenever something was mentioned concerning the larger world outside the main story, it was never about past events or winks to the fans. It was natural, organic, effortless.

 

Then George Lucas himself became a victim of fan service by having Anakin build C-3PO, pointless cameos, overhyping and overindulging the Anakin vs Obi-Wan duel, making Yoda a friend of Chewbacca's and, in my view, the very worst, was the Yoda vs Sidious duel.

 

The Darth Vader hallway scene in Rogue One was also a clear example of awful fan service

 

Whenver it's blatant, forced, unsubtle, I just can't go along with it.

 

Even the Mandalorian relies heavily on fan service, specially on. its supposedly original main characters. The title character stands on the shoulders of Boba Fett's popularity and Grogu relies heavily on accumalated goodwill for the Yoda character..

 

I'm just rambling, really, but if that Luke scene at the end of Season 2 represents the sort of thing most Star Wars fans want to see, then I guess there's not much for in the future of the Star Waes franchice. It has become too diluted, anyway. Too much mainstream content

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Star Wars' own success is it's own doom - doomed to repeat itself, bring back characters, retread old stories. The Clone Wars (era) felt fresh to me because of the war across multiple worlds and the stories that could be told within it, and is another reason why I'm looking forward to the High Republic era, it'll be relatively fresh with new things.

 

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2 hours ago, Datameister said:

 

I mean, at least we had clear and extremely recent examples of them being a real threat.

Can you give me some examples?

 

Because all I remember is them slowly marching to slowly punch a door, and one of them stupidly punching Mando’s helmet repeatedly despite it obviously not working, and then inexplicably throwing him away so he can regain his footing.

 

The Darktroopers no joke ended up killing absolutely nobody. The narrative wants them to be a threat but then their actual actions undermine the idea of that

2 hours ago, Arpy said:

Star Wars' own success is it's own doom - doomed to repeat itself, bring back characters, retread old stories. The Clone Wars (era) felt fresh to me because of the war across multiple worlds and the stories that could be told within it, and is another reason why I'm looking forward to the High Republic era, it'll be relatively fresh with new things.

 

I too am cautiously optimistic about the High Republic for those exact reasons

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2 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

Can you give me some examples?

 

 

I think he's talking about 'The Tragedy', where the Dark Troopers swooped in, kidnapped Grogu and nobody could do anything to stop them

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I suppose we never saw them succeed in any massive acts of violence. Somehow I still bought into them being an actual threat, though - more so than your average stormtrooper. I guess the design language and music did the heavy lifting there.

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8 hours ago, Romão said:

There was no fan service in the Original Trilogy. Never did a character get introduced with the characterization gaps already filled in some other medium. Whenever something was mentioned concerning the larger world outside the main story, it was never about past events or winks to the fans. It was natural, organic, effortless.

 

Then George Lucas himself became a victim of fan service by having Anakin build C-3PO, pointless cameos, overhyping and overindulging the Anakin vs Obi-Wan duel, making Yoda a friend of Chewbacca's and, in my view, the very worst, was the Yoda vs Sidious duel.

 

The Darth Vader hallway scene in Rogue One was also a clear example of awful fan service

 

Whenver it's blatant, forced, unsubtle, I just can't go along with it.

 

Even the Mandalorian relies heavily on fan service, specially on. its supposedly original main characters. The title character stands on the shoulders of Boba Fett's popularity and Grogu relies heavily on accumalated goodwill for the Yoda character..

 

I'm just rambling, really, but if that Luke scene at the end of Season 2 represents the sort of thing most Star Wars fans want to see, then I guess there's not much for in the future of the Star Waes franchice. It has become too diluted, anyway. Too much mainstream content

 

Be sure to tune in next year for season 3 of The Mandalorian. 

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Star Wars forumites (the type of "engaged" fan whom Disney probably grudgingly refer to as "the community") are badly out of touch with what the regular Star Wars fans want. Just this morning I returned to work and asked my boss about whether he caught up with The Mandalorian over Christmas, which he did. Luke Skywalker was quickly the main talking point of course, and his words were, "when the X-Wing suddenly appeared and Moff Gideon visibly shit himself, the hairs on my neck stood up, because I knew it was Luke." 

 

I didn't bother to ruin the glee on his face by asking what he thought about the shit CGI, because I could tell he just didn't give a fuck about any geeky shit like that. 

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3 hours ago, Quintus said:

Star Wars forumites (the type of "engaged" fan whom Disney probably grudgingly refer to as "the community") are badly out of touch with what the regular Star Wars fans want. Just this morning I returned to work and asked my boss about whether he caught up with The Mandalorian over Christmas, which he did. Luke Skywalker was quickly the main talking point of course, and his words were, "when the X-Wing suddenly appeared and Moff Gideon visibly shit himself, the hairs on my neck stood up, because I knew it was Luke." 

 

I didn't bother to ruin the glee on his face by asking what he thought about the shit CGI, because I could tell he just didn't give a fuck about any geeky shit like that. 

 

You're quite right

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I think it is pretty evident that Season 2 of the Mandalorian was a giant sales-pitch by Disney designed to gauge our interests. Four/five of the eight episodes re-introduced characters and two of those characters are getting confirmed spin-offs. A giant leap from the season they spent developing something sort-of stand-alone. It was mentioned above that the Mandalorian and Grogu might as well have been Boba and Yoda, and I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately that was going on long before Disney got involved, Jango being an obvious and glaring example.

 

Not counting the show we were all watching or the Ahsoka/Boba spinoffs I just mentioned, seven more new shows are moving forward now, headed by a variety of different people. I hope Disney is trying to have it both ways and please both groups of fans. They can certainly afford to. Of course as a multi-billion dollar corporation they also have the power to go in the opposite direction. Looking at the list of show titles, it does seem like they are trying to evoke different moods. I'll just hope, you know that word that Star Wars fans can't escape

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