Remasters of the First 6 Star Wars Soundtracks now available (Shawn Murphy / Disney Records 2018)

[phbart 609]

 

19 minutes ago, Jay said:

You're not thinking things through.  2 years ago all they did was gussy up the '77, '80, and '83 analog-edited album masters.

 

THIS time they've gone back to the ORIGINAL elements and done modern, proper, HIGH RESOLUTION DIGITAL transfers and REBUILT ALL SIX albums.  It's a huge task and well worth doing.

Please think about the bigger picture and not JUST your personal demands for complete score presentations.  The original '77, '80, '83, '99, '02, and 05 albums are artistic expressions by John Williams that deserved to be recreated with proper, modern, high resolution technology.  The fact that they ultimate screwed up doesn't mean they shouldn't have tried.

Jay, you're talking like we still needed to get out of our houses, drive all the way to a music store and buy a physical media (vinyl, cassette, CD) as the only way to listen to the music. What, are you living in the dark ages?

[Jay 37,352]

I'm sorry you lost me.  What does any of that have to do with anything I said?  I don't see the connection, or where you came up with that inference at all.

[phbart 609]

If you don't recall, that post of yours was answer to my post where I said the original albums were already made available little over 2 years ago, and because of that, we don't need them again. Hope that helped you find yourself.

 

Now, if we are to talk about all the trouble they went through to get those albums edits reconstructed from superior sources and everything, it makes even more sense to present them complete, ALONG with the album as originally intended by the composer. I believe this has been the practice for years now with dedicated labels, case you didn't know.

 

[Jay 37,352]

Sure, but you missed my point that they didn't JUST reissue them again, they REBUILT them all in an attempt to get them to all sound better than ever before.  Yes, they screwed up in that endeavor, but the endeavor was worthwhile.

Also, you seem to be forgetting that it was SONY that reissued them in 2016.  Disney, and Lucasfilm, had NOTHING to do with that; That was SONY trying to get new money from fans one last time before their license expired.

This is the FIRST time the actual original rightsholders to the music (and the entire franchise) themselves have put work into these scores since each's original album release.  It was an endeavor worth taking.  And now that all the elements are transferred, if Mike gets hired they can instantly send him everything he needs to begin the work!

[Chewy 2,388]

14 minutes ago, phbart said:

 

Jay, you're talking like we still needed to get out of our houses, drive all the way to a music store and buy a physical media (vinyl, cassette, CD) as the only way to listen to the music. What, are you living in the dark ages?

 

Don't forget UMG digital releases (including these new releases) are watermarked, and if you ears are trained well, you might be able to actually hear that watermark. CDs don't have it.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

So this thread has been stretched and it's too fragmented for me to make any sense of it. Could someone give me the cliffnotes version of what's wrong with this release set?

[Jay 37,352]

3 minutes ago, Chewy said:

Don't forget UMG digital releases (including these new releases) are watermarked, and if you ears are trained well, you might be able to actually hear that watermark. CDs don't have it.

 

Wait... what!?

 

Are you sure about that?  Where did you learn about that?

 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Margo Channing said:

So this thread has been stretched and it's too fragmented for me to make any sense of it. Could someone give me the cliffnotes version of what's wrong with this release set?

 

All six feature new editing (when transitioning from one cue to another within a track) that is almost always not as good as was done previously.  SW is mostly OK in that regard though.

 

Empire features really screwed up sound in a lot of tracks, like they didn't fold the LCR down to 2channel stereo properly.  Like huge groups of instruments panned hard left - it sounds REALLY wrong.

 

TPM features a bunch of wrong takes, most noticeably in Duel of the Fates.

 

ROTS features some mixes that are VERY differnet from the mixes Williams put on the OST in 2005.  They are the film mixes instead, with all kinds of extra percussion that wasn't heard on the album versions.

[Holko 9,525]

Did a little googling and it seems to be true. Thank god I can't give a toss about digital music streaming and downloads. Fuck those huge corporations.

[Chewy 2,388]

There was (and there is still) a tool that allows to illegally download FLAC files from Deezer (equivalent to Spotify). I have always been curious to know if the files provided by Deezer were exact copy of the CD files and, after using this tool to compare, I was surprised to notice small but audible differences on every Universal Music Group album. I searched a bit on the internet and found this very interesting article: https://www.mattmontag.com/music/universals-audible-watermark

 

As far as I know, they watermark all of their digital releases, which means streaming services, iTunes, Google Play and even High-Res services like HDTracks.

[Holko 9,525]

They're deliberately distributing faulty products. How is this allowed?

[phbart 609]

12 minutes ago, Jay said:

Sure, but you missed my point that they didn't JUST reissue them again, they REBUILT them all in an attempt to get them to all sound better than ever before.  Yes, they screwed up in that endeavor, but the endeavor was worthwhile.

Oh, you have got to be kidding! Are you serious? I really didn't know they rebuilt the album from superior sources. All this time I thought they went to the previous release and tried to improve it.

 

Jay you're really something else... 

[Chewy 2,388]

Just now, Holko said:

They're deliberately distributing faulty products. How is this allowed?

I'll show you a comparison between a Deezer track and a CD track from TLJ when I get home.

[Jurassic Shark 12,067]

2 minutes ago, phbart said:

Oh, you have got to be kidding! Are you serious? I really didn't know they rebuilt the album from superior sources. All this time I thought they went to the previous release and tried to improve it.

 

Jay you're really something else... :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

What's wrong about trying to make even better sounding releases?

[phbart 609]

I was being ironic to the fact that he's saying I'm not getting his point, while he's totally not getting my point either.

[Jurassic Shark 12,067]

I know you were being ironic. I think it's a good thing that Disney wanted to re-release the OT OSTs for the first time on CD, and it's a good thing they tried to improve the sound even further, whatever the result.

 

At least now they know who should not produce the future complete editions.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

So Empire doesn't sound all that great, huh? That was the one I wanted the most since I've never heard the original LP arrangement.

[Alan 689]

Is anyone commenting having heard the CDs? I'm curious whether they sound any different.

[Jurassic Shark 12,067]

Just now, Margo Channing said:

So Empire doesn't sound all that great, huh? That was the one I wanted the most since I've never heard the original LP arrangement.

 

Here it is, in good quality:

 

 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Just now, Alan said:

Is anyone commenting having heard the CDs? I'm curious whether they sound any different.

 

Me too!

[Jurassic Shark 12,067]

That's wishful thinking.

[MikePetersen 8]

Stupid question (maybe) but I'll ask anyway: are people judging the quality of these new remasters based on the samples? Or has anyone received an actual CD and heard the sound of that yet?

[Jurassic Shark 12,067]

You can hear them in quite good quality on streaming services, like Spotify.

[Alan 689]

1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said:

That's wishful thinking.

 

Yep! But sometimes it's rewarded

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

4 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Here it is, in good quality:

 

 

 

It won't play. 😔

[Giftheck 916]

I have heard them and I can agree with pretty much everything Jay has said. I'm a little confused by the take choice in some instances (though Duel of the Fates does indeed use what I would assume to be just one take, they also did not replicate some of the edits to the OST track, and some of those takes are quite clearly the same as the video game takes). It's also curious to see that not every ROTS track uses the film percussion: for instance, Enter Lord Vader and The Elevator Scene.

 

(Quite curiously, there's a microedit in the original "Qui-Gon's Noble End" track that is not present on the new version - compare 1:46 of the new version of the old)

[Jurassic Shark 12,067]

4 minutes ago, Margo Channing said:

 

It won't play. 😔

 

Move to Norway!

[Jay 37,352]

32 minutes ago, phbart said:

Oh, you have got to be kidding! Are you serious? I really didn't know they rebuilt the album from superior sources. All this time I thought they went to the previous release and tried to improve it.

 

Jay you're really something else... 

 

27 minutes ago, phbart said:

I was being ironic to the fact that he's saying I'm not getting his point, while he's totally not getting my point either.

 

You're right, I have missed your point.  Can you explain your point clearly and concisely, since I wasn't able to ascertain it from your prior posts?  I'm being completely serious.  I hope I am not coming across as antagonistic at all, I am genuinely confused now about what your complaint is about these releases, since it doesn't seem to be the technical deficiencies.  From what I've been able to tell, you're upset that the rights-holders are crafting their own new editions only 2 years after Sony made the old OST albums available to us, is that it?

[Drew 590]

37 minutes ago, Chewy said:

 

Don't forget UMG digital releases (including these new releases) are watermarked, and if you ears are trained well, you might be able to actually hear that watermark. CDs don't have it.

 

How does that work? Is there an example of a watermarked track? UMG is a notoriously corrupt company regardless. They gave me a YouTube copyright strike for piano covers! 

[Jay 37,352]

I want to learn more about this too, if you please @Chewy

[Holko 9,525]

Just now, Chewy said:

I'll show you a comparison between a Deezer track and a CD track from TLJ when I get home.

Be patient and keep up with posts, guys.

 

Quote

UMG uses a spread spectrum watermark, a technique explained in detail in this Microsoft research paper [note: the link that was inserted here in the original blog post is now dead]. The watermark scheme modulates the total energy in two different bands, 1khz to 2.3 khz and 2.3 to 3.6 khz. The energy is concentrated in the most perceptually sensitive frequencies because that makes it more difficult to attack or remove without significant audible distortion.

 

That's what you pay all that money for of HDtracks for a supposedly way superior quality.

[Alan 689]

Is Augie's Great Municipal Band supposed to sound like that? 🤨

[Giftheck 916]

2 minutes ago, Alan said:

Is Augie's Great Municipal Band supposed to sound like that? 🤨

 

I'm not sure... it was recorded in several 'layers'. It definitely sounds different, like some of those elements weren't mixed in loud enough (also interesting is the choir is used entirely unlike the OST version but is perhaps mixed in too quietly).

 

At the very least this release shows they had to have digitized the sessions. Now, please hand them over to MM and get him to work on these, because he would do wonders with them.

[Holko 9,525]

Believe, for we will se Matessino's wonders.

[Chewy 2,388]

So I just did the comparison on 'Chrome Dome' (from TLJ). I downloaded the FLAC file from Deezer using my tool and I imported it on Audacity. Then I imported my CD rip of that track on Audacity as well and I aligned both tracks to be able to compare them properly (UMG's CD tracks are usually shifted by 12 samples which means that on all modern UMG's CDs, the first 12 samples of the very first track of the CD are removed so there's a little shift in every track compared to the original files). And that's what I got:

 

 

The energy of the watermark is spread in two different bands as you can see. On this article, you have more details, that dude investigated a bit.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

So who do we bombard with letters to hire Mattessino to assemble true expansions/remasters?  The President of Disney Music Group?

[Alan 689]

I listened to Phantom Menace this mornining but not the last track. It definitely sounds like a layer or two is missing, which also makes the transition to the end credits much more awkward. Like my ears had suddenly popped and restored hearing!

[Jay 37,352]

13 minutes ago, Chewy said:

 

 

Huh.  That's really interesting.  Thanks for that!

 

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

So who do we bombard with letters to hire Mattessino to assemble true expansions/remasters?  The President of Disney Music Group?

 

I am positive the people in charge of this property know fans want (and will give them money for) expanded editions of all six scores, and they also know MM would be the person to hire (Remember: Kathleen Kennedy runs Lucasfilm, and she produced all those Spielberg films MM has been expanding lately) There's really no reason to reach out to them to tell them what they already know.  I think expanded editions will come, we just have no clue how low we have to wait.... and they probably won't give us a head's up when they are in the works, we'll probably find out when they are about to be releases like we did with these remasters.

[Giftheck 916]

1 minute ago, Alan said:

I listened to Phantom Menace this mornining but not the last track. It definitely sounds like a layer or two is missing, which alao makes the transition to the end credits much more awkward. Like my ears had suddenly popped and restored hearing!

 

Actually, yeah... I can agree with that. Augie's Great Municipal Band definitely needed to be louder with some of its elements - that timpani bang comes in out of nowhere.

[phbart 609]

12 minutes ago, Jay said:

You're right, I have missed your point.  Can you explain your point clearly and concisely, since I wasn't able to ascertain it from your prior posts?  I'm being completely serious.  I hope I am not coming across as antagonistic at all, I am genuinely confused now about what your complaint is about these releases, since it doesn't seem to be the technical deficiencies.

Jay, I believe I made my point very clear as to what my dissatisfaction about this release is.

 

Once you stop diminishing other people's point of view to make yours prevail, trust me, it will make a lot easier for you understand things.

[Jay 37,352]

But, you didn't make it clear, that is why I politely asked you to please make your point  again in a way that I could understand.  But I guess you don't want to.  Oh well.

[Drew 590]

5 minutes ago, Chewy said:

The energy of the watermark is spread in two different bands as you can see. On this article, you have more details, that dude investigated a bit.

 

 

I was just reading that article. I can't really hear too much of a difference between the two, yet most Spotify tracks have always felt a little off to me. Just another reason to keep collecting CDs. Although it's scary if even the trusted digital uncompressed sites come with watermarks, in the event that CD production would eventually phase out.

[Holko 9,525]

He says in the article that classical music is probably the most affected.

[Faleel 5,346]

9 minutes ago, Gistech said:

 

Actually, yeah... I can agree with that. Augie's Great Municipal Band definitely needed to be louder with some of its elements - that timpani bang comes in out of nowhere.

Whoa, yeah that is weird...
 

 

[phbart 609]

1 hour ago, phbart said:

The correct statement from Murphy would be "the best as can be obtained BY US". I'm pretty sure that another team of soundtrack producers, ones who are really specialized on this field and knows their shit, would take a very different approach.

 

But really, I don't think we should crush this release regarding the sound quality. SW sounds entirely magnificent, while ESB is like 50/50. RoTJ is, for me, a slightly improved 93 Anthology (which is great because the RoTJ Anthology sounds excellent anyway). What really sucks here is the content. Seriously, replicating the albums AGAIN?

 

1 hour ago, Jay said:

There is absolutely nothing wrong and no reason to complain about reissuing the original album configurations John Williams crafted at the time of each film's release.  They absolutely deserve to be in print and easy for fans to hear if they desire.

 

We of course can complain about performing a sub-par job reconstructing and remastering them, and hope that complete editions are next on their agenda, but it's not really logical to be upset that they wanted to reissue them.  It is actually quite logical and makes complete and total sense, both both a business and artistic perspective.

 

1 hour ago, phbart said:

The albums were released little over 2 years ago. We don't need them AGAIN.

 

1 hour ago, Jay said:

You're not thinking things through.  2 years ago all they did was gussy up the '77, '80, and '83 analog-edited album masters.

 

THIS time they've gone back to the ORIGINAL elements and done modern, proper, HIGH RESOLUTION DIGITAL transfers and REBUILT ALL SIX albums.  It's a huge task and well worth doing.

Please think about the bigger picture and not JUST your personal demands for complete score presentations.  The original '77, '80, '83, '99, '02, and 05 albums are artistic expressions by John Williams that deserved to be recreated with proper, modern, high resolution technology.  The fact that they ultimate screwed up doesn't mean they shouldn't have tried.

They are on the previous page, but I'll make it easier for you.

 

Now do you see how you twist things, how you try to diminish what people say?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

21 minutes ago, Jay said:

I am positive the people in charge of this property know fans want (and will give them money for) expanded editions of all six scores, and they also know MM would be the person to hire (Remember: Kathleen Kennedy runs Lucasfilm, and she produced all those Spielberg films MM has been expanding lately) There's really no reason to reach out to them to tell them what they already know.  I think expanded editions will come, we just have no clue how low we have to wait.... and they probably won't give us a head's up when they are in the works, we'll probably find out when they are about to be releases like we did with these remasters.

 

I'm counting on a Shawshank letter-writing situation.

 

Disney:

Dear Mr. Stu, we appreciate your persistence and enclosed are free copies of the remastered original albums

 

Disco Stu:

Well from now on I'm gonna write two letters per week instead of one

 

Disney:

Dear Mr. Stu, in response to your repeated enquiries Disney has hired Mike Matessino to produce properly expanded albums of all 9 Williams Star Wars scores and each will include bonus discs for correctly remastered original albums and bonus tracks.  We trust this will fill your needs.  We now consider the matter closed.

Please stop sending us letters.

[Drew 590]

4 minutes ago, Holko said:

He says in the article that classical music is probably the most affected.

 

So he thought a guitar solo was the best way to prove his point? Lol.

[Jay 37,352]

On 5/4/2018 at 12:59 PM, phbart said:

They are on the previous page, but I'll make it easier for you.

 

Now do you see how you twist things?

 

 

No, I'm sorry, I don't see it.  Can you just use your own words to explain it fresh?  All I see is:

 

you:: The content sucks, why are they giving us the OSTs again?

 

me: The albums are artistic expressions by JW that deserve to be in print, and redoing the sound of said albums from the original elements is a worthwhile endeavor

 

you; But we just got those albums two years ago, why is Disney giving them to us again?

 

me; It was Sony that gave us the albums 2 years ago, and they didn't rebuild them, just barely remastered old analog masters.  This is Disney's first crack at doing anything with this property themselves, and they rebuilt the albums, which, again, was a worthwhile endeavour

 

you: you don't understand my point!

 

me:  *confused*

 

It's especially confusing because in my first post you quoted, I specifically said everyone has the right to complain about the mistakes they made in remastering these, and I also specifically said it's completely valid to hope for expanded releases as well.

All I was trying to say was Disney has not screwed up, or done fans wrong, by wanting to rebuild the JW album programs, too.  It's actually smart, as the income from these can help fund a future expansion project.

 

 

 

 

 

On 5/4/2018 at 1:00 PM, Disco Stu said:

I'm counting on a Shawshank letter-writing situation.

 

Disney:

Dear Mr. Stu, we appreciate your persistence and enclosed are free copies of the remastered original albums

 

Disco Stu:

Well from now on I'm gonna write two letters per week instead of one

 

Disney:

Dear Mr. Stu, in response to your repeated enquiries Disney has hired Mike Matessino to produce properly expanded albums of all 9 Williams Star Wars scores and each will include bonus discs for correctly remastered original albums and bonus tracks.  We trust this will fill your needs.  We now consider the matter closed.

Please stop sending us letters.

 

 

 

[phbart 609]

That's not a correct summarization of your arrogance. Let me quote again, but only your posts.

1 hour ago, Jay said:

There is absolutely nothing wrong and no reason to complain about reissuing the original album configurations John Williams crafted at the time of each film's release.  They absolutely deserve to be in print and easy for fans to hear if they desire.

 

We of course can complain about performing a sub-par job reconstructing and remastering them, and hope that complete editions are next on their agenda, but it's not really logical to be upset that they wanted to reissue them.  It is actually quite logical and makes complete and total sense, both both a business and artistic perspective.

 

1 hour ago, Jay said:

You're not thinking things through.  2 years ago all they did was gussy up the '77, '80, and '83 analog-edited album masters.

 

THIS time they've gone back to the ORIGINAL elements and done modern, proper, HIGH RESOLUTION DIGITAL transfers and REBUILT ALL SIX albums.  It's a huge task and well worth doing.

Please think about the bigger picture and not JUST your personal demands for complete score presentations.  The original '77, '80, '83, '99, '02, and 05 albums are artistic expressions by John Williams that deserved to be recreated with proper, modern, high resolution technology.  The fact that they ultimate screwed up doesn't mean they shouldn't have tried.

 

[Jay 37,352]

I'm sorry, I still don't get your argument.  Quoting my posts back to me won't help.  You can either make your argument in a clear, concise way that I can understand, or just drop it entirely.  I have nothing else to say beyond that!

[phbart 609]

It's your argument, not mine. I merely expressed my opinion about this release. You took care of the rest of the imbroglio, as always.

 

5 minutes ago, Jay said:

I have nothing else to say beyond that!

Please, do this! And you should do this more often when you have nothing useful to say about someone's opinion.