The most famous Williams theme pre-1975 (Jaws)?

[filmmusic 1,827]

What do you think or you have read that was the most famous music theme of John Williams before 1975?

 

I have a hunch that it was the Lost in Space theme for 3rd season.

 

No specific reason for this hunch, but I just found myself dancing on my chair with it.

[King Mark 3,631]

I'd say Lost in Space season 3 and Poseidon Adventure

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Poseidon Adventure was definitely his biggest box office success before Jaws, right?  I think it was more successful than Towering Inferno or Earthquake.  Not that bigger box office success necessarily means the theme was more famous.

[filmmusic 1,827]

Just a reminder that I'm talking of ALL his music. Not just film music, but TV too. (i'm not saying concert work because I doubt that a concert theme was the most famous one)

[Thor 7,495]

THE POSEIDON ADVENTURE? That's doesn't really have any theme at all. Mostly just droning, low register rumbles and suspense.

 

I'd agree with LOST IN SPACE. Other TV contenders are CHECKMATE, BACHELOR FATHER and SUSPENSE THEATRE, but LOST IN SPACE beats them all.

 

"A Guide for the Married Man" was a moderate hit, but largely forgotten in The Turtles' oeuvre.

 

"Make Me Rainbows" certainly seemed to get various cover numbers, including the great Ella Fitzgerald, but I'm not sure how famous it was. Same goes for "Tomorrow" from WAGON TRAIN.

 

His most popular work seemed to be when he adapted material by someone else (FIDDLER ON THE ROOF etc.).

[Bespin 8,480]

Famous, like fame... like good enough to appears on compilations, to be played in concert, to be re-recorded, etc.

 

Towering Inferno, without any doubts.

 

It has been put on some famous compilations and re-recorded by Henry Mancini (in 1976) and more recently by Keith Lockhart, among others.

 

 

 

 

[Quintus 5,399]

When was Land of the Giants? Great old theme tune on it.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

54 minutes ago, Thor said:

THE POSEIDON ADVENTURE? That's doesn't really have any theme at all. Mostly just droning, low register rumbles and suspense.

 

What?!

 

 

[Bespin 8,480]

5 minutes ago, Sharky said:

 

What?!

 

The thing that was popular from The Poseidon Adventure was the song.... not written by John Williams!

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Story of a Woman

[filmmusic 1,827]

39 minutes ago, Bespin said:

 

The thing that was popular from The Poseidon Adventure was the song.... not written by John Williams!

Yeah, ok, but Sharky's response was to Thor's statement that the film score doesn't have a theme.

[Thor 7,495]

18 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

Yeah, ok, but Sharky's response was to Thor's statement that the film score doesn't have a theme.

 

I know it has themes (well, at least one). But no particularly strong ones, and certainly no popular ones. The song's the thing in that score, and it was not written by Williams, nor particularly popular.

 

In either case, it has nothing whatsoever to do with a topic about 'most popular themes'. I take it that by 'popular', one means how known the theme was in the public, not how popular the films were or how great the scores were.

[Balahkay 627]

My question is... How famous was John Williams pre-1975?  He certainly wasn't an unknown by any means given all his output and Oscar but it seems Jaws was the score that finally put him in the spotlight.

[Thor 7,495]

2 minutes ago, someonefun124 said:

My question is... How famous was John Williams pre-1975?  He certainly wasn't an unknown by any means given all his output and Oscar but it seems Jaws was the score that finally put him in the spotlight.

 

Well, he was up there on the A list by the time JAWS came around -- especially after he got his first A list gig with HOW TO STEAL A MILLION in '66. But as I mentioned earlier, his greatest claim to fame from the mid 60s to the mid 70s may have been his adaptation work, not his film composing work.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,520]

4 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Poseidon Adventure was definitely his biggest box office success before Jaws, right?  I think it was more successful than Towering Inferno or Earthquake.  Not that bigger box office success necessarily means the theme was more famous.

 

THE POSEIDON ADVENTURE was more successful than EARTHQUAKE, but THE TOWERING INFERNO was the most successful film released in 1974.

[Ricard 2,245]

4 hours ago, Thor said:

THE POSEIDON ADVENTURE? That's doesn't really have any theme at all. Mostly just droning, low register rumbles and suspense.

 

2 hours ago, Thor said:

I know it has themes (well, at least one). But no particularly strong ones, and certainly no popular ones.

 

I say the main theme from The Poseidon Adventure is one of the most stirring, dramatic and powerful themes from Williams' pre-Jaws era. Although definitely not as memorable as the main title from The Towering Inferno, which appeared on various film music compilations and would probably have been his most popular theme from those years if Jaws hadn't been released a few months later.

 

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The song's the thing in that score, and it was not written by Williams, nor particularly popular.

 

'The Morning After' was one of the most popular movie songs from that period... (and that year's Oscar winner).

 

[King Mark 3,631]

2 hours ago, Sharky said:

 

What?!

 

 

 yeah I was a bit baffled by Thor's reply too

[Jurassic Shark 12,070]

2 hours ago, Thor said:

 

Well, he was up there on the A list by the time JAWS came around -- especially after he got his first A list gig with HOW TO STEAL A MILLION in '66. But as I mentioned earlier, his greatest claim to fame from the mid 60s to the mid 70s may have been his adaptation work, not his film composing work.

 

I've always thought it was the disaster movies which gave him his breakthrough scoring big budget popular films with his own original music.

[Thor 7,495]

33 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

I've always thought it was the disaster movies which gave him his breakthrough scoring big budget popular films with his own original music.

 

No, not really, in my estimation. It was all a gradual build from '66, in particular. A ltitle bit of adaptation, a little bit 'hit' movies like HOW TO STEAL A MILLION, THE REIVERS etc. But it no doubt got him pigeonholded for a while.

 

I'm still baffled why any of you insist on bringing up THE POSEIDON ADVENTURE in a discussion like this. It has nothing whatsoever with the topic at hand. There are no popular Williams themes in it (and -- as it happens -- is also one of the alltime weakest JW scores, IMO, and I say that as one who loves the film dearly).

[Jurassic Shark 12,070]

7 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

No, not really, in my estimation. It was all a gradual build from '66. A ltitle bit of adaptation, a little bit 'hit' movies like HOW TO STEAL A MILLION, THE REIVERS etc. But it no doubt got him pigeonholded for a while.

 

I doubt How to Steal a Million and The Reivers were especially expensive productions. I'd guess Fiddler was his first really big budget film before he got the chance to do original music for the disaster movies.

[Thor 7,495]

5 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

I doubt How to Steal a Million and The Reivers were especially expensive productions. I'd guess Fiddler was his first really big budget film before he got the chance to do original music for the disaster movies.

 

Regardless of cost, HTSAM was his first major A list film with all the big stars behind and in front of the camera -- a huge priority from Fox that year, and a massive critical and commercial blockbuster success. It's from this point on that he enters A list territory, with other big budget films with A list crew.

 

I don't place the three early 70s disaster movies as anything other than a brief 'typecasting' or excursion into genre fare; not as any particular career turning points.

[Ricard 2,245]

5 hours ago, Thor said:

I'm still baffled why any of you insist on bringing up THE POSEIDON ADVENTURE in a discussion like this. It has nothing whatsoever with the topic at hand.

 

Because you insisted that it had no themes.. then that it did, but the main theme was weak... even that the song wasn't very popular... We were replying to those 'baffling' statements 

 

And yes, it has to do with the topic we're discussing... I was thinking of Poseidon and Towering Inferno before I saw KM mentioning the former. We were both alive at the time of the film's release (personally I started paying attention to Williams' name shortly after), so it probably has more to do with our own first-hand experiences than with some information we may have read 20 years later. While it may not be the winner, its main theme is a valid candidate for a discussion like this.

 

4 hours ago, Thor said:

Regardless of cost, HTSAM was his first major A list film with all the big stars behind and in front of the camera -- a huge priority from Fox that year, and a massive critical and commercial blockbuster success.

 

Mixed reviews and simply "commercial success" would be more accurate  

 

4 hours ago, Thor said:

I don't place the three early 70s disaster movies as anything other than a brief 'typecasting' or excursion into genre fare; not as any particular career turning points.

 

Well... as typecasting as they were, those were also the films that basically put John Williams' name on the map before Jaws. Not a single Williams film credit was so popular before Poseidon and Towering Inferno, other than Fiddler on the Roof. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The Gilligan motif!

[Thor 7,495]

10 hours ago, Ricard said:

 

Because you insisted that it had no themes.. then that it did, but the main theme was weak... even that the song wasn't very popular... We were replying to those 'baffling' statements 

 

You know as well as I do that I didn't mean it had no literal themes, but rather no memorable ones (IMO), and certainly no popular ones. The majority of that score is droning, low suspense cues. Heck, it didn't even get a soundtrack release at the time. I had forgotten that the song won an Oscar, so I'll give you that, but it had nothing to with Williams.

 

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And yes, it has to do with he topic we're discussing... I was thinking of Poseidon and Towering Inferno before I saw KM mentioning the former. We were both alive at the time of the film's release (personally I started paying attention to Williams' name shortly after), so it probably has more to do with our own first-hand experiences than with some information we may have read 20 years later. While it may not be the winner, its main theme is a valid candidate for a discussion like this.

 

How so? How was the POSEIDON ADVENTURE theme popular? The film was popular, but none of the themes were. I could understand TOWERING INFERNO a bit more, but even that score wasn't particularly popular, and certainly no theme from it. I think it's a rather bizarre title to pull out for a topic about most popular JW theme pre-JAWS.

 

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Mixed reviews and simply "commercial success" would be more accurate  

 

No, HTSAM generally received favourable reviews at the time.

 

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Well... as typecasting as they were, those were also the films that basically put John Williams' name on the map before Jaws. Not a single Williams film credit was so popular before Poseidon and Towering Inferno, other than Fiddler on the Roof. 

 

First of all, the topic wasn't about what score put Williams "on the map". Second, I'd argue that he was firmly planted on the map LONG before he did those two movies, and not only because of FIDDLER. HTSAM was what put him on the A list map. As I said, in my estimation his disaster movies were no particular turning points in terms of career or style. So if that's your argument, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

 

[Bryant Burnette 654]

Depending on how one defines the concept of "famous," I think the answer to this question almost certainly has to be one of the television-series themes, which would have been heard by millions upon millions of people every week during the period the show aired.  Then, it would probably have aired in syndication for years afterward.  So my feeling is it's probably the first-season Lost In Space theme.

 

MAYBE if one of the movies from that era has had a ton of television play ever since, it might be that.  The Cowboys seems like a strong candidate there, especially given how much exposure Williams himself has given it in concerts.

[Thor 7,495]

My impressesion was that filmmusic asked for themes that were popular before JAWS, not that have become popular or frequently performed post-JAWS. As if you asked someone in, say, 1974 what the most famous John Williams theme was; or which theme would get greater recognition if you played some for them at that time. As such, I think LOST IN SPACE would be the undisputed winner.

[filmmusic 1,827]

32 minutes ago, Thor said:

My impressesion was that filmmusic asked for themes that were popular before JAWS, not that have become popular or frequently performed post-JAWS.

Yes, that is what I meant.

[Ricard 2,245]

9 hours ago, Thor said:

You know as well as I do that I didn't mean it had no literal themes, but rather no memorable ones (IMO), and certainly no popular ones. The majority of that score is droning, low suspense cues.

 

The kind of cues that you only like if the composer decides to release them. I get it. I think the main title is pretty memorable, btw.

 

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Heck, it didn't even get a soundtrack release at the time. 

 

Which says a lot about the score itself, as we all know...

 

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How so? How was the POSEIDON ADVENTURE theme popular? The film was popular, but none of the themes were. I could understand TOWERING INFERNO a bit more, but even that score wasn't particularly popular, and certainly no theme from it. I think it's a rather bizarre title to pull out for a topic about most popular JW theme pre-JAWS.

 

Compared to most Williams pre-Jaws themes? Perfectly understandable that it was mentioned by several members in a topic like this. Bizarre according to your logic, no doubt 

 

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First of all, the topic wasn't about what score put Williams "on the map". 

 

So what? someonefun124 brought the topic, you replied, I responded... it happens all the time.

 

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How so? How was the POSEIDON ADVENTURE theme popular? The film was popular, but none of the themes were. I could understand TOWERING INFERNO a bit more, but even that score wasn't particularly popular, and certainly no theme from it. I think it's a rather bizarre title to pull out for a topic about most popular JW theme pre-JAWS.

 

Definitely not as 'firmly' as with the disaster scores.

 

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No, HTSAM generally received favourable reviews at the time.

 

OK. So we go from "massive critical and commercial blockbuster success" to "generally received favourable reviews", to the actual facts:

 

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When How to Steal a Million was released in 1966 it was met with mixed reviews. In some ways the frivolous nature and glorified glamour of Wyler's film seemed completely out of touch with the times. But it also offered audiences a welcome escape from the Vietnam War, civil unrest and the cultural upheaval that the world was facing. The film did relatively well at the box office.

http://www.tcm.com/this-month/article.html?isPreview=&id=1318093|535778&name=How-to-Steal-a-Million

 

 

 

 

[Faleel 5,347]

9 hours ago, Thor said:

 

 I could understand TOWERING INFERNO a bit more, but even that score wasn't particularly popular, and certainly no theme from it.

 

 

Not disagreeing, just curious, TTI had a song that was also a theme in the movie, was that popular in any way? (Like, even minutely?)

[Naïve Old Fart 9,520]

8 minutes ago, Fal said:

Not disagreeing, just curious, TTI had a song based on one of the themes, was that popular in any way? (Like, even minutely?)

 

The song wasn't "based" on anything. WE MAY NEVER LOVE LIKE THIS AGAIN, was written independently of JW, and he incorporated it into the score.

[Ricard 2,245]

Although Williams quotes the song "We May Never Love Like This Again" in one of the cues of the score, it was composed and performed by the same team as "The Morning After" (Al Kasha/Joel Hirschhorn, performed by Maureen McGovern). It won the Oscar that year but it wasn't nearly as popular as the 'Poseidon' song.

 

EDIT: Richard beat me by a second

[Faleel 5,347]

Nah, Williams composed it first, then transferred it into the brains of  A and J.

And it shows up in a couple of cues IIRC.

[Thor 7,495]

Ricard, I get that you have a close connection to these scores. I really do. But that doesn't make the scores any more popular, or any themes therein. I love TOWERING INFERNO, I think POSEIDON is dreadful (but love the film). But what you or I think about them is really irrelevant. When trying to assess if something is popular or not -- and without actual statistics -- all we can do is to surmise by historical context. I stand by what I've said -- neither TOWERING nor POSEIDON had any popular themes at that time! To suggest that they had is a rather absurd notion, don't you agree? If not, I'd be curious to know what you base that on? Are you perhaps suggesting that because the films were popular, so too were the scores (and the main themes)?

 

I mentioned a few titles earlier that I think are likelier candidates. But I think all of them are beaten by LOST IN SPACE, when all is said and done.

 

Oh, and if we're going to throw internet quotes around:

 

Wikipedia:

 

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How to Steal a Million was a critical and commercial hit upon its original release.The film currently scores 100% on Rotten Tomatoes with an Average Rating of 6.9/10.[3]

 

Williams himself calls it his first major motion picture.

 

You can't downscale HTSAM's importance just because you like POSEIDON and TOWERING more.

 

 

[Ricard 2,245]

5 hours ago, Thor said:

Ricard, I get that you have a close connection to these scores. I really do.

 

You didn't get a single idea from my words, obviously.

 

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But that doesn't make the scores any more popular, or any themes therein.

 

And you're actually saying that I relate to a personal preference to support my reasoning...

 

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what you or I think about them is really irrelevant.

 

Apparently it was relevant when you expressed your dislike for Poseidon, out of nowhere.

 

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TOWERING nor POSEIDON had any popular themes at that time! To suggest that they had is a rather absurd notion, don't you agree? If not, I'd be curious to know what you base that on? Are you perhaps suggesting that because the films were popular, so too were the scores (and the main themes)?

 

You didn't read what I say. I won't rephrase it for someone capable of distorting other people's posts for the sake of arguing.

 

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Wikipedia

 

Yeah, I saw that... And also (unsurprisingly): "Citation needed (This claim needs references to reliable sources)"

 

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Williams himself calls it his first major motion picture.

Sure, I never say it wasn't.

 

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You can't downscale HTSAM's importance just because you like POSEIDON and TOWERING more.

 

If you really think that's what I did... I see no point in wasting my time arguing with you. About this or any other topic.

[Thor 7,495]

No point going back and forth on this. I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore. Clearly, we read Williams' history differently, and that's OK, I guess.

[Ricard 2,245]

Agreed!

[Tom 4,654]

This is all before my time, but I wonder if The Cowboys or Reivers resonated on a larger scale.  He did turn both into concert suites.  I know the Reivers suite came later, but I think the Cowboys was earlier.  

 

Also, the Heidi theme might have been recognized just because of the fiasco with its premiere cutting off the Super Bowl.   

[Thor 7,495]

Back on topic, I think CHECKMATE and its main theme might be the runner-up after LIS. As some of you know, the soundtrack album sold so well that it landed Williams a recording contract with Columbia, resulting in the quick follow-up album RHYTHM IN MOTION (as explained in the FSM liner notes). Perhaps with BACHELOR FATHER on third (even though it had multiple themes, Williams' seems to be the one with the closest association to the popular sit com). And then perhaps the Turtles song on fourth, even if it wasn't much of a hit. But it was The Turtles, after all, a major band at the time. Perhaps tied with the two other Irwin Allen TV themes.

 

Does anyone know how the Paul Williams-performed "Nice to be Around" fared at the time? Paul Williams was also a major player, and the film enjoyed a degree of popularity and critical acclaim. In a similar vein, there's also the NONE BUT THE BRAVE vocal single...it wasn't performed by Sinatra himself, but he directed and starred in the film, so that might have given some spin-off effect. I doubt it, though.

 

My ranking, therefore, is thusly:

 

1. LOST IN SPACE

2. CHECKMATE

3. BACHELOR FATHER tied with SUSPENSE THEATER

4. "A Guide for the Married Man" tied with THE TIME TUNNEL/LAND OF THE GIANTS

5. "Nice to be Around"

 

(not counting adaptation work, of course).

[pete 907]

Lost in Space's two themes - by miles!

[filmmusic 1,827]

2 hours ago, Thor said:

3. BACHELOR FATHER tied with SUSPENSE THEATER

 

were these that popular?

I wouldn't have guessed.

 

off topic:

How I would love a complete bluray release of Kraft Suspense Theater (with the quality of Twilight zone release), but since it's not sci-fi/thriller, it doesn't stand a chance!

Sometimes I wish I had the same tastes with the masses!

[Thor 7,495]

9 hours ago, filmmusic said:

were these that popular?

I wouldn't have guessed.

 

off topic:

How I would love a complete bluray release of Kraft Suspense Theater (with the quality of Twilight zone release), but since it's not sci-fi/thriller, it doesn't stand a chance!

Sometimes I wish I had the same tastes with the masses!

 

Yeah, none of the anthology/"Theater" shows seem to get that treatment. I wonder if it's a more tricky rights issue with these kinds of shows, or if it's just a matter of lost material. But one would think that -- at least from the time they were shot on video/film in the late 50s -- the material would be available somewhere.

 

BACHELOR FATHER  was a popular show, from what I've read over the years, and SUSPENSE THEATER was one spin-off of a very popular and famous "Kraft" series of television shows that had run since the late 40s. KRAFT TELEVISION THEATER was an institution, and it was part of that. Of course, in later years it has received even more recognition due to the soon-to-be famous film directors involved (Altman, Pollack, Kershner, Lupino, Wendos in particular). I think if you played these themes for audiences at the time, they would be widely recognized.

 

But I wasn't alive then, and information is scarce, so I'm just surmising.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

By far it's Lost in Space. Not even close.  The gap between the "popularity" of Lost in Space and any other pre-1975 Williams score is bigger than the gap in popularity between the movie Forrest Gump and its book sequel.

 

And @Thor is right...scores like Poseidon Adventure and Towering Inferno (good as those scores may be) weren't exactly "popular".  Most of the people who are familiar with those scores are reading this thread. 

 

Yes, that's hyperbole, but only just.

[Thor 7,495]

11 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

By far it's Lost in Space. Not even close.  The gap between the "popularity" of Lost in Space and any other pre-1975 Williams score is bigger than the gap in popularity between the movie Forrest Gump and its book sequel.

 

Yeah, I think you're right. I love "nerding out" about other early JW themes that might have some sort of popularity, but in the end they'll all be less familiar than LOST IN SPACE. Again, not counting stuff like FIDDLER ON THE ROOF that was not composed by him.

 

In general, however, I think that people tend to underestimate Williams' status by the time JAWS came around, and especially his 60s stuff. I, personally, think Williams was where Horner was right before TITANIC when he did JAWS. That is, a major player on the A list, but not necessarily the superstar he became with JAWS and STAR WARS a few year later. If you read his filmography carefully from 1958 onwards, you'll find all these particular films and TV shows representing turning points that moved him upwards, both in terms of career and style exploration. It's endlessly fascinating.

 

For example, that he mostly came in with a handful of second season episodes for the first couple of years, but then from CHECKMATE on was involved from the first season in most shows, even crafting themes for them.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

On 4/30/2018 at 11:33 AM, Disco Stu said:

Poseidon Adventure was definitely his biggest box office success before Jaws, right?  I think it was more successful than Towering Inferno or Earthquake.  Not that bigger box office success necessarily means the theme was more famous.

No. The Towering Inferno was a much bigger hit.

As for the song from the Poseidon Adventure, The Morning After was quite popular and it spent 2 weeks atop the charts on Billboard. 

We may never love like this again was 83 

& Can you read my mind was 52