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Star Wars Disenchantment


John

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14 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Anakin wasn't a nobody. One of the newer Star Wars comics shows that Palpatine created him. That's one of the main reasons I think Palpatine created Rey. 

 

It eluded to it, it wasn't a direct confirmation. Besides, Palpatine was dead long before Rey was born.

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On 28/03/2019 at 4:48 PM, Manakin Skywalker said:

It eluded to it, it wasn't a direct confirmation. Besides, Palpatine was dead long before Rey was born.

 

One frame showed Palpatine conjuring a baby within Shmi Sykwalker. In the third Aftermath novel, Palpatine set-up a "Contingency" project on Jakuu.

 

On 28/03/2019 at 4:52 PM, Jurassic Shark said:

Please leave the comics and books out of this.

 

Why? They contain hints at - and explanations of - things in the films.

 

On 28/03/2019 at 4:57 PM, Chen G. said:

No, he was a vessel for Rian Johnson to say what I thought since she showed up in The Force Awakens, which is that the idea that Rey is related to any established character in the Star Wars films is friggin' stupid.

 

it undermines her rags-to-riches journey, it diminishes the expanse of this world, its a cheap repeat of the twist of The Empire Strikes Back, and - given how young she was when she was orphaned - it adds not one-bit to her actual character.

 

If I begrudge this reveal in any way, its because its too obvious a plot-point to make a big twist out of it.

 

Perhaps, but Rey's origin isn't conclusive just yet. I'll never understand why her being "related to any established character in the Star Wars films is friggin' stupid." Anakin wasn't a nobody. Luke wasn't a nobody. So why should Rey be a nobody?

 

Rey has always had the Force within her. It just 'awakened' as Kylo's Force powers grew.

 

I don't know what "riches" you're expecting from Rey. She already defeated Kylo twice.

 

The origin of the protagonist of this trilogy needn't be concerned with "expanse of this world". Again, the audience needs to be told why she, specifically, has such immense Force powers.

 

I'm confused that you think an explanation of Rey's origin would be a "cheap repeat" when the twists in The Empire Strikes Back ("I am your father") and Return of the Jedi (Vader betraying his master, sacrificing himself to save his son) were absolutely crucial to the overall story. I think IX will have a major reveal, betrayal, and sacrifice. "It's like poetry; they rhyme."

 

The explanation of Rey's powers and origin would now be a "big twist" since they would be revealed in the third film in the trilogy. It will be a powerful moment if they write and present it skillfully... with a magnificent musical cue.

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21 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Speaking of music, can anyone hear the similarity between Rey's Theme (her main theme) and The Emperor's Theme? I don't think this is a coincidence. John Williams knows something!

 

No.

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18 minutes ago, Remco said:

No.

 

Before I explain how their themes are similar, want to have a crack at why you think they are not?

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There is a curious semblance, to the beginnings of the respective phrases, but I find it but a passing one.  At any rate, the tone and harmonic language of Rey's Theme is quite distinct from the more religioso evil of the Emperor's Theme, and this difference is integral.

 

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As always, John Williams' themes for the two characters fit like a glove. While their tone/character is distinctly unique, both themes begin with four phrases across four measures in 4/4 time.

 

First phrase: The second note of each theme is higher than the first; the third is lower than the first.

 

Second phrase: Rey's Theme contains three ascending notes. The Emperor's Theme contains three descending notes.

 

Third phase: Rey's single note is followed by three descending note which start higher than the first. The Emperor's Theme is the same notes as in the first phrase.

 

Fourth phrase: Both themes end with two isolated notes, with the second lower than the first. (When repeating, the Emperor's Theme often includes a third note.)

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So you think that when Williams wrote Rey's theme for Episode VII he knew Rey's origins? I'm sure even JJ Abrams didn't know, but even if he did - that doesn't mean that Williams will have known. I'm sure he wouldn't have cared to ask: he just writes the music for each film as a standalone piece.

 

During the prequel trilogy, which was the closest a Star Wars trilogy ever came to having a premeditated story, Lucas remarked that Duel of the Fates "is the theme of the third film". Williams rekarked "I don't quite know what he means by that." He could have, of course, bothered to ask, but he didn't. Its just not how he works.

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Given all the clues that lead me to believe Palpatine will be connected to Rey, yes, I think that when Williams wrote Rey's theme for Episode VII he had been told Rey's origins. You can't deny the slew of evidence that points to a big Palpatine reveal in IX. Story-wise, I will be shocked they come up with something more fulfilling and relevant to the overall narrative of the saga.

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25 minutes ago, Mattris said:

he had been told Rey's origins.

 

I'm certain there were - and are - no figured-out origins to be told. That's just not how they went about making this trilogy.

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1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

 

I'm certain there were - and are - no figured-out origins to be told. That's just not how they went about making this trilogy.

 

Which is weird since Lucas, JKR and to an extent Peter Jackson have led a lot of people to expect a certain higher level of planning ahead than just new installments building on the previous installments and in some cases even retconning them.

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Its not wierd, actually: its percisely how the first three Star Wars films were made. No planning whatsoever. Most trilogies are like that: its more financially responsible, and gives some artistic leeway to change direction between entries.

 

With Rowling, I believe the story was prefigured in her mind, at least in broad brushstrokes. Some of the payoffs feel too perfect to have been improvised. With Jackson, he literally wrote, previsualized, shot and assembled the whole thing at once. That's the ultimate, and this new Star Wars trilogy would have been better off, had it been made that way.

 

However, because it wasn't, one has to deal with it, and judge this trilogy for what it is: three separate, albeit interconnected, movies.

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The prequels are more comparable to the Harry Potter example: yes, he knew that the trilogy was heading towards Palpatine revealing himself to be the bad-guy, Anakin becoming infatuated with Padme against the wishes of the Jedi order, and ultimately going evil out of a misguided attempt to rescue her, and finally taking a part in the destruction of the Jedi order, the formation of the Empire and the death of Padme, before a duel with Obi Wan leaves him scarred for life.

 

But that premise isn't a trilogy. In a screenplay, the devil's in the details, not in the broad brushtrokes. The best way to create a sense of payoff across a whole trilogy is to actually envision the entire structure of each individual film, as well as having key scenes figured out down to the small details. Lucas, for instance, didn't have - when he wrote The Phantom Menace - a concept of who the villains of Episode II and the first half of Episode III would be. One feels it instantly.

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Sure if you want to get really nitty gritty. But the prequels seem like they have a lot more long term planning behind them (minus details) than the sequel flicks, which are just like "make a movie by next Christmas and we'll figure out what happens when we make the next one!"

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Oh sure. Its better than nothing, but to me, if you're going to go the premediatated route, you'd better go all the way and actually write and shoot the whole bloody thing at once. Its much better. But Disney is too risk averse to do that.

 

But its the sort of thing one has to make peace with. Once they announced they were going to come out two years apart, and made by different filmmakers each, I knew that they simple weren't going that route. One has to deal with it, and watch the films for what they are.

 

But than you have the likes of @Mattris who not only don't make peace with the facts, but actually go as far as to delude themselves that there is some grand scheme behind these films even where they most clearly isn't one.

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Its not the unoriginality of it, necessarily: but we have enough threads running through the sequel trilogy which lift from the original films: the Jedi, the Dark Side, the First Order as a offshoot of the Empire, Stormtroopers, Kylo being a descendant of Vader, returning characters: Rey being related to a previous character may just be one too many.

 

I think the story of an orphan from "nowhere" becoming a leading figure in the struggle against evil and a master of her craft is an interesting one; and while Rey is puzzlingly all-powerful, internally she's filled with self-doubt and incredulity at her own abilities. Making her not a nobody will diminish her journey, as such.

 

And because she was abandoned by her parents at such a young age, the identity of her parent wouldn't actually change our understanding of her character: Suppose she's - say - a Kenobi, will that in any way inform our understanding of Rey's personality? No, it won't.

 

And like I said, characters are only so compelling as the story they find themselves in. So the attempt to weave the two trilogies together via famlial ties rather than ties of story and theme is really a cheap trick.

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If Palpatine had anything to do with Rey, which I seriously doubt, how does the audience get this information. There's no one alive that could know about it since it was likely done in secret over 30 years prior. 

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21 minutes ago, Demodex said:

how does the audience get this information.

 

That's another thing: how do you reveal this to the audience, while also going on with telling the conclusion of the trilogy's story? How can you pull it off?

 

Best for JJ not to fuss around with that and just focus on giving us a solid story.

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10 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I'm certain there were - and are - no figured-out origins to be told. That's just not how they went about making this trilogy.

 

Why is it unbelievable that they knew Rey would be related to Palpatine in some way... and have been dropping clues in the films, comics, and novels that will make sense of things in the end?

 

10 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Its not wierd, actually: its percisely how the first three Star Wars films were made. No planning whatsoever. Most trilogies are like that: its more financially responsible, and gives some artistic leeway to change direction between entries.

 

With Rowling, I believe the story was prefigured in her mind, at least in broad brushstrokes. Some of the payoffs feel too perfect to have been improvised. With Jackson, he literally wrote, previsualized, shot and assembled the whole thing at once. That's the ultimate, and this new Star Wars trilogy would have been better off, had it been made that way.

 

However, because it wasn't, one has to deal with it, and judge this trilogy for what it is: three separate, albeit interconnected, movies.

 

To think that Lucas didn't envision a hero's journey for Luke is absurd. But while Star Wars was the first film in the saga and had to adhere to nothing, IX is the end of a trilogy and the entire saga. It simply must tie things together in a massive, impactful conclusion.

 

10 hours ago, Chen G. said:

In a screenplay, the devil's in the details, not in the broad brushtrokes. The best way to create a sense of payoff across a whole trilogy is to actually envision the entire structure of each individual film, as well as having key scenes figured out down to the small details.

 

The details of the Sequel Trilogy will make sense if they did have a plan for Rey's origin from the beginning... and if they were clever enough to sprinkle clues throughout VII and VIII... and make IX so that it pieces everything together.

 

10 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Oh sure. Its better than nothing, but to me, if you're going to go the premediatated route, you'd better go all the way and actually write and shoot the whole bloody thing at once. Its much better. But Disney is too risk averse to do that.

 

But its the sort of thing one has to make peace with. Once they announced they were going to come out two years apart, and made by different filmmakers each, I knew that they simple weren't going that route. One has to deal with it, and watch the films for what they are.

 

But than you have the likes of @Mattris who not only don't make peace with the facts, but actually go as far as to delude themselves that there is some grand scheme behind these films even where they most clearly isn't one.

 

Please tell me @Chen G., what are "the facts"? Considering how Disney/Lucasfilm are acting unconventional with this trilogy (writing/making the films one at a time, with different directors; antagonizing the disenchanted fans; etc.), nothing is clear.

 

7 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Its not the unoriginality of it, necessarily: but we have enough threads running through the sequel trilogy which lift from the original films: the Jedi, the Dark Side, the First Order as a offshoot of the Empire, Stormtroopers, Kylo being a descendant of Vader, returning characters: Rey being related to a previous character may just be one too many.

 

I think the story of an orphan from "nowhere" becoming a leading figure in the struggle against evil and a master of her craft is an interesting one; and while Rey is puzzlingly all-powerful, internally she's filled with self-doubt and incredulity at her own abilities. Making her not a nobody will diminish her journey, as such.

 

And because she was abandoned by her parents at such a young age, the identity of her parent wouldn't actually change our understanding of her character: Suppose she's - say - a Kenobi, will that in any way inform our understanding of Rey's personality? No, it won't.

 

And like I said, characters are only so compelling as the story they find themselves in. So the attempt to weave the two trilogies together via famlial ties rather than ties of story and theme is really a cheap trick.

 

Given that Rey is the protagonist of the trilogy, I'm confident that the vast majority of fans would want Rey to be connected/related to a previous character.

 

I agree, "the story of an orphan from nowhere becoming a leading figure in the struggle against evil and a master of her craft is an interesting one"... in another Star Wars movie/series - not the concluding trilogy of the STAR WARS Saga.

 

As @Fabulin noted, Rey is never filled with self-doubt and incredulity at her own abilities. Her journey can only be 'diminished' if she fails or fails to discover her "place in all this".

 

7 hours ago, Demodex said:

If Palpatine had anything to do with Rey, which I seriously doubt, how does the audience get this information. There's no one alive that could know about it since it was likely done in secret over 30 years prior. 

 

Correct. As revealed towards the conclusion of Aftermath: Empires End, Emperor Palpatine personally set-up his Contingency on Jakku, which can be revealed in IX. If true, Rey and Kylo are related: one created as a "Contingency", the other is the grandson of Anakin, who Palpatine created. If handled properly, this could be an amazing reveal.

 

6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

That's another thing: how do you reveal this to the audience, while also going on with telling the conclusion of the trilogy's story? How can you pull it off?

 

Best for JJ not to fuss around with that and just focus on giving us a solid story.

 

JJ has an entire 2.5-hour film to work with to make a solid ending of a story. What can he do to make the entire trilogy - and the conclusion of the Saga - "satisfying" if not utilize characters and themes of the previous trilogies? Since Rey has already beaten Kylo twice, another confrontation between them will not be enough.

 

5 hours ago, Fargo said:

I deny it.

 

The evidence exists whether you deny it or not.

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WARNING! EXTREME VERBOSE ALERT! PROCEED WITH CAUTION! 

 

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

To think that Lucas didn't envision a hero's journey for Luke is absurd. But while Star Wars was the first film in the saga and had to adhere to nothing, IX is the end of a trilogy and the entire saga. It simply must tie things together in a massive, impactful conclusion.



 

That may be, but its true.

 

When Lucas made Star Wars, he definitely had an idea of a sequel, but just a sequel, and he certainly didn't have too concrete a concept of what it may be. I went through earlier script drafts, which had another text crawl at the end, as a glimpse of a sequel; I looked through a novelization synopsis considered for a sequel; neither of  which bore any meaningful resemblence to The Empire Strikes Back, nor set the story on the traejectory which terminates in Return of the Jedi.

 

By the time The Empire Strikes Back took shape, Lucas definitely had a sense of the traejectory of the story. Its there in Yoda's line: "Stopped they must be. On this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor." But its clear he had no concrete idea of how that would come to be. The "there is another" is one big, damning piece of evidence to this: its abundantly clear that Lucas did not intend for this to be Leia, having set-up a romantic interest in Star Wars - to the point that Williams wrote Leia's theme as a Luke-and-Leia love theme. And, of course, when he did come to write Return of the Jedi's plot twist down, it plays out like a really poor attempt to recapture the lightening-in-a-bottle which was the Vader reveal. Its haphazard.

 

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

IX is the end of a trilogy and the entire saga. It simply must tie things together in a massive, impactful conclusion.

 

Oh, I agree, it should. But it won't.

 

Its a nearly-impossible task to pull off well, and because JJ Abrams was brought in quite late, for him to attempt to do so within the time constraints will be an overreach. He'd better focus on sticking the landing for this trilogy.

 

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

Please tell me @Chen G., what are "the facts"? Considering how Disney/Lucasfilm are acting unconventional with this trilogy (writing/making the films one at a time, with different directors; antagonizing the disenchanted fans; etc.), nothing is clear. 

 

The facts include explicit quotes from both Kennedy and Johnson, and its really just appearant from following the production and seeing the films themselves.

 

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

JJ has an entire 2.5-hour film to work with to make "a solid story". What can he do to make the entire trilogy - and the conclusion of the Saga - "satisfying" if not utilize characters and themes of the previous trilogies? Since Rey has already beaten Kylo twice, another Rey-Kylo confrontation in the 'big finale' will not be enough.

 

 

Given The Last Jedi's deletrious pacing, I think Abrams will try to keep the film under 2.5 hours, which really isn't a lot within which to construct a truly satisfying resolution. Given how The Last Jedi opened and closed, IX can't open in medias res, and you can bet a substantial amount of the running time will be dedicated to resetting the stage and reminding audiences of where the characters' are at. And its not like IX isn't going to have its own story to tell, alongside the final resolution: we already know that several actors/actresses have been cast in presumably considerable roles.

 

The sequel trilogy may be the most densly-populated of the three, to boot. IX will have to resolve the stories of Rey, Finn, Poe, Rose, Kylo, and probably those of Hux and Billie Lourd's character and at least one new character,  as well, which is a lot.

 

Need I remind you that the concluding chapter is in fact so challenging, that it has only really ever been done well once, in The Return of the King. I really like The Dark Knight Rises, The Battle of the Five Armies and War of the Planet of the Apes, but do either of these films offer a truly satisfying resolution, and/or surpass both previous entries in their respective trilogies? The Last Crusade is my favourite Indiana Jones film, but its not a concluding film in the same way that IX ought to be, now is it? If Revenge of the Sith is the best of the prequel trilogy, its by the fault, and that too isn't a conclusive film, because its made to slot between Episode II and the original Star Wars. I don't particularly care for Return of the Jedi. Pirates of the Caribbean 3 is...okay, but its not quite there for a good resolution, and neither is Back to the Future 3. This is by no means an exhaustive list (Godfather Part 3, anyone?), either.

 

All of this goes to show that offering a satisfying resolution to a single trilogy bordes on the impossible. But to nine films?! The only remotely comparable case is Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2, and all it goes to show is that the bigger the backlot of entries there is, the harder it is to offer a satisfying resolution. To make matters worse, IX is at much more inferior position than that film: the filmmakers had less time to hone it; the eight films it has to cap were made across a much larger period of time, and by several wildly different filmmakers, resulting in wildly different films which - in order to bring to a conclusion - IX first has to unify. Plus, like I said previously, the story of Harry Potter was very deliberately and conciously building towards a predetermined conclusion, whereas here the episodes are being made up one at a time. Plus, to tie-up all eight films, IX has to refer back to the prequels a lot, and I don't know that everyone would appreciate that too much.

 

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3 minutes ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

Well if we're now drawing those types of conclusions, I'd like to throw it out there that the gungans in Augie's Municipal Band, based on musical parallels, are most certainly the creation of Palpatine. 

Only a Dark Lord of the Sith could create a species so vile. And he's from Naboo! You can't deny all the evidence.

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If Episode IX is the conclusion of an entire 9 movie saga, can it have half a dozen false endings, too, only to read the same people who crucified ROTK over it, defend it to death this time?

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I’m old enough to remember the days when online people were predicting huge shocking twists in the prequels, which means I’m also old enough to remember that they were wrong and nothing like that happened and Star Wars remained a space fairy tale.

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3 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

So now Palpatine can not only create life, but also create himself out of nothingness and choose a mother? 

image.png

AND also has a phantom clause that he can do it till min. 45 years after his death ?

How rude

 

Palpatine never created life, Plagueis did.

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2 hours ago, Bespin said:

Palpatine never created life, Plagueis did.

 

In one of the canon Darth Vader comics, it is insinuated that Palpatine created Anakin. James Luceno's Darth Plagueis novel is no longer canon to the Star Wars Universe. I am unaware of any canon material that indicates that Plagueis created life.

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Let me get this straight...

 

You're sore at Rian Johnson for digging deep into canon/Star Wars lore and using "subverting", yet previously existing, material, and yet you are doing the same thing to prove your Rey Palpatine point? 

 

Contradictory quite.

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1 hour ago, Mattris said:

 

In one of the canon Darth Vader comics, it is insinuated that Palpatine created Anakin. James Luceno's Darth Plagueis novel is no longer canon to the Star Wars Universe. I am unaware of any canon material that indicates that Plagueis created life.

 

Palpatine himself tells in the movie that he can’t do what Plagueis did.

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