Star Wars Disenchantment

[Chen G. 3,949]

21 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

making the main character dull, without a character arc,

 

I don't know that I agree with that. In The Force Awakens, Rey's journey is the classic Hero's Journey. Have I seen enough of this narrative in these types of tentpoles? Absolutely. Does that make it a bad formula? No. In The Last Jedi, the main character's Luke, anyway. But Rey still has a chance to grow, when she overcomes her naïvety, when she shuts the door on Kylo.

 

Besides, character development isn't a necessary prerequisite for good character. Its what's called a flat arc.

[John 2,032]

Don’t try to debate him, Chen. It’s not worth it 

[Mattris 416]

After coming across this, I couldn't stay away:

 

In an interview with kusc.org, John Williams spoke about Rey's parents:

 

Interviewer: "I assume they are pretty extraordinary. Somebody tried to tell her that they were anonymous people who died in the desert. I don't believe that."

 

"Yes. I don't believe it either," Williams said.

 

 

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

The Force Awakens ... perhaps the most memorable moment for me in that film is Kylo Ren deliberating in front of Vader's helmet: Love it!

 

The Dark Side can infuse itself within a helmet. Kylo thinks he's listening to Darth Vader... but it could be Palpatine.

[Chen G. 3,949]

which goes to show he was told nothing on the matter.

 

As an aside: an interview with John Williams - and that's all we get! His opinion on a single plot-point?! Come on...

 

37 minutes ago, Mattris said:

The Dark Side can infuse itself within a helmet. Kylo thinks he's listening to Darth Vader... but it could be Palpatine.

 

which would make that excellent scene really, really stupid.

 

[Mattris 416]

5 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

which goes to show he was told nothing on the matter.

 

He might know. But obviously, he's not going to let on if he does. Can you perceive the similarities between Rey's Theme and The Emperor's Theme?

 

5 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

which would make that excellent scene really, really stupid.

 

On the contrary, it would make the scene far better. Having turned to the Dark Side after he discovered the identity of his grandfather, Kylo has been living a lie. He turns back to the Light Side. And with Rey's help, they defeat Darth Sidious - and the Sith - once and for all.

 

@Chen G. You pressed me for a theory on how the trilogy/saga will end, and I provided. Care to have a crack, yourself? (Please be more specific than 'the Force goes away'.)

[Chen G. 3,949]

27 minutes ago, Mattris said:

He turns back to the Light Side.

 

Which is itself a stupid idea.

 

Kylo Ren is not a redeemable character. Another one of the few concrete things The Last Jedi left IX to go on with.

 

I wrote a full synopsis for what "my" version of the closing film would have been. What, you want me to write a 20-page treatment?

[Demodex 557]

2 hours ago, gkgyver said:

 

Of course it happens in your mind, where else? You are conditioned to these thoughts and associations in the media world almost every day. That's the whole point of it. It's social education.

If you are saying the feminist and SJ agenda is imaginary, then bollocks. It's directly and obviously dulling the movie down by making the main character dull, without a character arc, without as much as a struggle, and by making the plot senseless, pointless, and vanilla.

 

Are you and @Mattris the same person?

 

I'm not convinced that a feminist and SJW agenda is even present in these films. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Can you perceive the similarities between Rey's Theme and The Emperor's Theme?

 

No. I can't. But even if I did I would see it as a counterpoint.  A theme for a powerful Dark Side user and a similar theme for a powerful Light Side user.  

[Mattris 416]

Then they've got you.

 

I'm not @gkgyver but I like the cut of his jib!

[Demodex 557]

5 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Then they've got you.

 

LOL. How did they get me if I didn't even know they had an agenda?  If they even do, as I don't notice it. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Mattris said:

I'm not @gkgyver but I like the cut of his jib!

 

You should since you found one person on the forum who agrees with you. 

[Mattris 416]

The fact that you didn't know they had an agenda - and didn't notice it - proves my point.

 

In the Disenchantment topic, at least few more generally agreed with my take on Disney Star Wars. And I'll bet many more JWFan members are choosing not to engage.

 

@gkgyver Have any thoughts on my Episode IX theory?

[John 2,032]

Mattris, please take this discussion over to the SWD thread where it belongs 

[Mattris 416]

I've said all I want on the topic of Disenchantment and have no desire to discuss it further. As you can see, I'm hopeful and positive now!

[Demodex 557]

39 minutes ago, Mattris said:

The fact that you didn't know they had an agenda - and didn't notice it - proves my point.

 

Or it proves that It's non-existent. 

[mstrox 6,651]

i want to be dead

[Fabulin 3,511]

ca. 260 days till the premiere. I can't imagine 260 days of this thread. One could learn classical Greek, or something, in the meantime

[gkgyver 1,645]

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

I don't know that I agree with that. In The Force Awakens, Rey's journey is the classic Hero's Journey. Have I seen enough of this narrative in these types of tentpoles? Absolutely. Does that make it a bad formula? No. In The Last Jedi, the main character's Luke, anyway. But Rey still has a chance to grow, when she overcomes her naïvety, when she shuts the door on Kylo.

 

Besides, character development isn't a necessary prerequisite for good character. Its what's called a flat arc.

 

There is no such thing as a hero's journey in this sad trilogy. 

Rey happens to find the droid that has Luke's map.

Rey happens to meet the one storm trooper that has the droid that has Luke's map.

Rey happens to be able to fly the millennium falcon first try ever flying.

Rey happens to live besides the millennium falcon.

Rey happens to meet Han Solo somewhere random.

Rey falls ass backwards into Luke's lightsabre halfway across the galaxy.

Rey happens to run into evil main protagonist inside a huge forest on a green planet.

Rey happens to be able to use the force first try ever. 

Rey happens to kick the #2 most evil guy's ass first try ever.

Rey happens to be able to resist Snoke because fuck you.

Rey doesn't experience any throwback during her training.

Rey emerges as an all powerful Jedi master despite not having done anything resembling a mental journey.

 

Not ONE superhero has this kind of journey. You can call it whatever you want, that doesn't make it appealing. A hero has to have a emotional weakness, an achilles heel, or some kind of struggle, to make him sympathetic. And frankly, Rey isn't. She's vanilla, she's plastic, the plot falls into her lap, she doesn't struggle for anything. The closest thing that ever comes in these films to her being sympathetic is when she is first introduced, and she eats her crummy dinner. And even that is ruined by her putting on the helmet and being utterly content with the life she has.

 

Textbook Mary Sue. Character is an "idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character", mostly female, that acts as author insert or "wish fulfillment". Perform better at tasks that should be possible, given experience and training, saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we're lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, coming full circle fulfilling the victim role she inexplicably still sees herself in.

 

Paraphrased from Wikipedia.

Sounds familiar. Hardcore feminists almost always act like they know everything better, they can do everything better, and yet, see themselves as the victim. And of course, don't need men. At all. And lo and behold, no love interest whatsoever for Rey to make her look like she has a weakness.

Rey is a feminist wish fulfillment Mary Sue.

These film try to appeal to the lowest common denominator, which makes them appallingly dull and predictable.

 

Add token female main protagonist

Add another token female main protagonist

Add token black male protagonist to please the black community

Add token asian female protagonist to please the diversity community

Add token attractive fighter pilot to please the eye candy for women

Add token lesbian side protagonist to please the LGBT community

Add token "save the animals" subplot to please the environmentalists

Add token strong female character proving the token stereotype fighter pilot to be a testosterone moron to please the feminists

Add token female villain Darth Vader ripoff 

 

List goes on.

 

On the flipside, while the female characters are portrayed as morally and intellectually superior and succeeding, the male characters are miserable in these films.

 

Rey can do no wrong

Leia succeeds in the end

Holdo succeeds by being the clever hero and martyr

Rose is the brave and caring environmentalist that succeeds in rescuing animals and keeping Finn from suicide

That know-it-all troll leading to Luke's lightsabre is portrayed as a mentor or something

 

Han Solo fails and is killed, and is portrayed as someone too immature for Leia

Poe is portrayed as the testosterone driven idiot who needs Holdo to keep him from doing harm

Finn is a moron who wants to commit suicide and needs token girl #2 to beat sense into him, and as a trained storm trooper, needs Rey to save him and fly the falcon immediately upon meeting her.

Luke is a bitter man who failed at becoming a wise Jedi master, failed at training Kylo Ren, and kills himself out of remorse

Kylo Ren is foiled by Rey time and time again, gets his ass beaten by literally everybody

Snoke is a wimp getting killed by above wimp in no time

 

2 hours ago, Demodex said:

 

Or it proves that It's non-existent. 

 

"I don't see it, so it's not there"

No, it proves that you already take it as a given. It's what's called pushing the envelope. It doesn't happen overnight. I like to call it social engineering. You put people in the producer's and director's and writer's chair that you know have the convictions to suit the message you want to send. Because it's not the dishonest ones you can trust to defend your agenda, but the ones that from the bottom of their heart believe they do the right thing.

[Demodex 557]

I see your profile pic. Are you a Trump supporter?

[justaguy 68]

4 minutes ago, Demodex said:

I see your profile pic. Are you a Trump supporter?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Are you sure you want to go this way?

[John 2,032]

I mean, if the shoe fits...

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

[Demodex 557]

34 minutes ago, zaddini said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Are you sure you want to go this way?

 

I was just curious. If he is one that would explain some things. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

But Rey needs to be perfect and all-powerful to fulfill her role as a figure of revenge fantasy for women!

 

I fear for Godzilla: King of the Monsters that Godzilla will get his arse handed to him by Ghidorah and instead they'll just get Eleven to make Ghidorah violently explode with her telekinetic powers.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

Daisy Ridley's abs are a Mary Sue because they're too perfect.

[Alex 2,835]

The main problem with Rey is that she is touted as a good female role model because:

”She doesn’t have any weaknesses” 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2018/03/10/star-wars-star-daisy-ridley-says-that-rey-has-no-weaknesses/#536a81c44188

 

Captain Marvel kinda has that same problem.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So again, what weaknesses did Luke have?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Quote

Rey does have weaknesses, and I hope we see her achieve true failure and then overcome it in Episode IX. After all, as Yoda once said: Failure, the best teacher is

 

Unfortunately I don't think this will happen. Too risky and would upset the new female Disney princess fanatics too much.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Interesting that with one film to go people seem to already have their opinions finalized.

[Chen G. 3,949]

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

So again, what weaknesses did Luke have?

 

He was quite foolhardy.

 

Whenver Rey acts like that, it has some kind of narrative justification. But I do find her wanting to go back to Jakku in The Force Awakens is her weakness. her "wound" - the lie she tells herself and which she has to overcome.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Is that a genuine weakness though? And how did he overcome it? I don't think we actually see it on screen. He gets his ass handed to him by Vader, and in the next film he's all somber and moody.

[Chen G. 3,949]

As it is, its a bit of a stock weakness for this type of character, and often his foolhardiness is narrativelly justified (e.g. when he goes to save his friends). I think it comes out more during his training.

 

Its not much, but its there. He was also never quite so powerful (neither was Anakin) until very late in his journey.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So that's a difference between the Skywalkers arc and Rey, I agree.

Is that a reason to consider that a flaw though? With one film still to go?

 

Steve Rogers became incredibly powerful after a set of injections in his first film, and the character really doesnt have a lot of weaknesses. Apart from being  perhaps a bit too naive and idealistic.

 

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

No need to convince me, I'm fine with it.

 

The Hero's Journey is an idealized narrative, and so very often the character at its center is likewise idealized. It happens with Luke - it even happens with Anakin in The Phantom Menace, it happens a lot with superheroes, and the list goes on.

 

For some reason, some people suddenly want their Star Wars protagonist to be as flawed as T. E. Lawrence...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Some people just take it too seriously.

[crumbs 14,310]

All 3 of Rey, Finn and Poe have character flaws that are explored throughout TLJ, and all 3 have character arcs resolved by narrative's end. They each have at least two other characters that shape their arc along the way (Luke/Ben with Rey, Holdo/Leia with Poe, or Rose/DJ with Finn) whether through guidance, betrayal, tough love, failure or enlightenment.

 

Contrast that to Poe in TFA who really doesn't have an arc (or much of a defined character) at all.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Poe’s barely in The Force Awakens: he’s in the beginning; then he fake dies, and he returns near the very end of the story.

[Holko 9,525]

Yeah, a side character's lack of arc can be excused - if letting Finn keep his favourite jacket doesn't count as an arc!

[mstrox 6,651]

The jacket gets an arc in TFA and was affected by three characters (Poe, Finn, and Rey) but was wasted in TLJ

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I wonder what kind of leather it was made from?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Space leather?

[Fargo 297]

Poe's jacket was infused with the dark side. It was Palpatine's old jacket. Which means Finn will become a Sith and have to fight Rey & Kylo. 

[mstrox 6,651]

7 hours ago, Stefancos said:

So again, what weaknesses did Luke have?

 

Too horny

 

Thankfully he learned that the only woman in the galaxy was his sister, so he became chaste and a true Jedi.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Just now, mstrox said:

 

Too horny

 

He liked red heads.

[mstrox 6,651]

Luke is Kasey kockroach, big twist of episode IX confirmed

[gkgyver 1,645]

16 hours ago, Mattris said:

The fact that you didn't know they had an agenda - and didn't notice it - proves my point.

 

In the Disenchantment topic, at least few more generally agreed with my take on Disney Star Wars. And I'll bet many more JWFan members are choosing not to engage.

 

@gkgyver Have any thoughts on my Episode IX theory? It's on page 56.

 

No offense to you, please, but I don't want to have to think about movies that deeply when it comes to the actual unfolding of the story. If a movie doesn't get me while I watch it, or actively talks down to me, it's done.

Looking at big brand movies like Star Wars from a social manipulation and zeitgeist point of view is interesting (and aggravating), but I have zero interest in theories about a movie I will never watch a second time. Or possibly first time.

 

By the way, it's not useless engaging in discussions with me at all, it's just that 98% aren't able to do so without focusing more on getting the passive aggressive quips out of their system than on the actual point, and it's not worth typing a reply.

 

Also, just because I glanced over posts above: the weakness of the male characters is that practically all of them are portrayed in a way that their typical male traits lead to either their own demise or someone else's.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 minute ago, gkgyver said:

No offense to you, please,

 

😂

[Chen G. 3,949]

14 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

e weakness of the male characters is that practically all of them are portrayed in a way that their typical male traits lead to either their own demise or someone else's.

 

The SJW's got a name for that: toxic masculinity.

 

Which means that one of my very favourite films (we all know which one) is about as toxic as it ever gets.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Just now, Chen G. said:

Which means that one of my very favourite films (we all know which one) is about as toxic as it ever gets.

 

Uh

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

17 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

The SJW's got a name for that: toxic masculinity.

 

Which means that one of my very favourite films (we all know which one) is about as toxic as it ever gets.

 

Braveheart?

[Chen G. 3,949]

Yup.

 

The manliest movie of all time. Hence it should come with a "feminist/SJW's keep out" warning.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I thought Pitch Perfect was pretty manly.