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Star Wars Disenchantment


John

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Read it again, @DarthDementous. I'll quote a pertinent section from page 233:

 

(Obi-Wan had visited Padme in her apartment, both worried about Anakin)

 

Quote

 

My Master, Qui-Gon Jinn, believed that it was the will of the Force that Anakin should be trained as a Jedi -- and we all have a certain, oh, I suppose you could call it a Jedi-centric bias. It is a Jedi prophecy, after all.

But the will of the Force -- isn't that what Jedi follow?

 

Well, yes. But you must understand that not even the Jedi know all there is to be known about the Force; no mortal mind can. We speak of the will of the Force as someone ignorant of gravity might say it is the will of a river to flow to the ocean: it is a metaphor that describes our ignorance. The simple truth -- if any truth is ever simple -- is that we do not truly know what the will of the Force may be. We can never know. It is so far beyond our limited understanding that we can only surrender to its mystery.

 

 

Conclusion: The Jedi did not understand the Force, its origin, or its will.

 

I won’t budge on my perspective or entertain others' because I have not been presented facts or canon evidence to the contrary.

 

If you wish to refute any other facts of mine, you'd be the wiser to bring facts of your own. Otherwise, you'll lead people astray.

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On 29/05/2018 at 7:43 PM, Mattris said:

Rian Johnson made The Last Jedi to appease Kathleen Kennedy's feminist/SJW agenda and to spit in the face of the fans.

I should have read this before I decided to engage with you. Believe all the incorrect things you want about Star Wars. I don't associate with this level of stupid. And for the record, I hate (with a passion) this movie, but not because it has women in leadership roles.

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I see. Rather than address my substantive points, facts, and hard-hitting questions, you chose to try to discredit me... using an excerpt from a post of mine from over 4.5 years ago. From my more recent submissions, have you not yet gathered that I've far outgrown that foolish, short-sighted theory... and moved onto bigger ones, some of which were proven correct in 2019... when almost everyone here thought I was nuts?

 

Regardless, nothing you've contributed to this thread has indicated that I believe "incorrect things". If you truly want to engage with me regarding Star Wars... well, I'll refer you to what I just told DarthDementous.

 

FYI, calling someone "stupid" won't win you any points in a debate.

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4 hours ago, Mattris said:

Read it again, @DarthDementous. I'll quote a pertinent section from page 233:

 

(Obi-Wan visited Padme in her apartment. They were talking about Anakin, both worried about him.)

 

"My Master, Qui-Gon Jinn, believed that it was the will of the Force that Anakin should be trained as a Jedi -- and we all have a certain, oh, I suppose you could call it a Jedi-centric bias. It is a Jedi prophecy, after all."

"But the will of the Force -- isn't that what Jedi follow?"

 

"Well, yes. But you must understand that not even the Jedi know all there is to be known about the Force; no mortal mind can. We speak of the will of the Force as someone ignorant of gravity might say it is the will of a river to flow to the ocean: it is a metaphor that describes our ignorance. The simple truth -- if any truth is ever simple -- is that we do not truly know what the will of the Force may be. We can never know. It is so far beyond our limited understanding that we can only surrender to its mystery."

 

Conclusion: The Jedi did not understand the Force, its origin, or its will.


That conclusion is misleading. The excerpt shows that Obi Wan believes no mortal can completely understand the Force. The way you phrased it made it sound like Obi Wan was specifically calling out the Jedi for using the Force whilst not understanding its ways. The Jedi view the divine through a biased mortal lens just as anyone who uses the Force does (except for literal immortals I suppose), he does not believe for example that the Sith or the Nightsisters have the bigger picture in mind.

It would be like sharing an excerpt of Obi Wan coming across a dead Rodian and saying he died of natural causes, like all mortals can, and concluding from that "Obi Wan says Rodians die of natural causes". It's technically true, but it's misleadingly targeted at one group that is encompassed by the larger statement.

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I don't understand how you took my conclusion as misleading. Based on that especially pertinent excerpt, my conclusion was spot on.

 

Yes, Obi-Wan was specifically calling out the Jedi for using the Force whilst not understanding its ways. He was a Jedi Master on the High Council and, from a Jedi point of view, knew what was known about the Force, which was very little. His belief that no mortal mind could have completely understood the Force was just another belief of his - or the Jedi, in general - without any hard evidence.

 

46 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:

he does not believe for example that the Sith or the Nightsisters have the bigger picture in mind.

 

Correct. And personally, I agree with him on that.

 

Regardless, Obi-Wan's statement was that of a defeatist in that he had concluded that the Force cannot be fully understood by a mortal mind. If that were true, then George Lucas does not fully understand the Force.

 

A rigmarole, indeed.

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56 minutes ago, Mattris said:

I don't understand how you took my conclusion as misleading. Based on that especially pertinent excerpt, my conclusion was spot on.

 

Yes, Obi-Wan was specifically calling out the Jedi for using the Force whilst not understanding its ways. He was a Jedi Master on the High Council and, from a Jedi point of view, knew what was known about the Force, which was very little. His belief that no mortal mind could have completely understood the Force was just another belief of his - or the Jedi, in general - without any hard evidence.

 

 

Since when do you need hard evidence to point out that you can't know divine will for absolute certain? Huh?

 

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One doesn't. But that wasn't my point... or Obi-Wan's. I merely brought up the fact that he had no evidence to support his claim (assumption) regarding how much could possibly be understood about the Force - and by whom - without having understood the Force himself.  How illogical.

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26 minutes ago, Mattris said:

That's not what I said, nor did Obi-Wan. I merely brought up the fact that Obi-Wan had no evidence to support his claim (assumption) regarding how much could possibly be understood about the Force - and by whom - without having understood the Force himself.  How illogical.


This is Obi-Wan's evidence:
 

Quote

She blinked as though he'd slapped her. "Why-that seems . . . unlikely, doesn't it? What about this prophecy the Jedi put so much faith in? Isn't he the chosen one?"

 

"Very probably. But I have scanned this prophecy; it says only that a chosen one will be born and bring balance to the Force; nowhere does it say he has to be a Jedi."

 

She blinked harder, fighting down a surge of desperate hope that left her breathless. "He doesn't have to-?"

 

"My Master, Qui-Gon Jinn, believed that it was the will of the Force that Anakin should be trained as a Jedi-and we all have a certain, oh, I suppose you could call it a Jedi-centric bias. It is a Jedi prophecy, after all."

 

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1 hour ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

You can't win, Darth :(


It's almost impressive really
 

 

3 hours ago, Mattris said:

His evidence was 'Qui-Gon Jinn and the Jedi believed...' ?  Not especially convincing, if you ask me.


You said nothing about the evidence being convincing, you just said he had no evidence and was operating off pure assumption. Do you doubt that Qui Gon and the Jedi believed the person in the Chosen One prophecy was a Jedi?

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3 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

Do you doubt that Qui Gon and the Jedi believed the person in the Chosen One prophecy was a Jedi?

 

No, but Yoda did say, "A prophesy that misread could have been".  I'll also note that what 'balance of the Force' meant was never discussed/revealed/confirmed in the films. Some Jedi thought it meant 'bring an end to the Sith'. I don't disagree with them.

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The best way to get rid of a door-to-door salesman is to never answer the door. Anyway, for me personally, Star Wars died when George sold Lucasfilm. I'm not mad, nothing lasts forever. I still have six films, The Clone Wars, and all the other Lucasfilm productions to revisit anytime I want. I gave Disney a solid shot, I liked most of Rogue One, and I really liked Solo, even if it is an abridged version of the Han Solo Trilogy. But JJ, man what a hack. And I do not use that term lightly. From Chris Pine on Star Trek:

 

“I tell the story about J.J. (Abrams) in the first film when I’d run on the deck of the ship and say something to the blue screen about something. And I had no idea what I was talking about. And I said to J.J., “I’d love to do with more time, cause I don’t know what I’m saying. if you could tell me what I’m saying, it would be a great help.” And he said, “It doesn’t matter. You just run, you say it as fast and earnestly and urgently as possible, and no one is gonna care.”

 

This is inherently cynical filmmaking. It doesn't trust the audience, it doesn't respect the audience enough to try, and the worst part is that he's absolutely right, because all of those films made tons of money and hoodwinked a lot of people. I find TLJ tedious with it's deconstructionist take (it's easier to deconstruct than to build, I think) but the well was poisoned from the outset with TFA. It said "here, you whiny crybabies, this is what you've said you wanted for 16 years, drink it." But it was New Coke. Put Coke on the label and no one is gonna care.

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Obviously, you do still care about Star Wars. That's good. Fans should continue to want to get more out of it.

 

But along the lines of 'not associating with my level of stupid', labeling JJ Abrams as a "hack" also will not win you any points in a debate.

 

Looking back on Star Wars (through the newest 'Disney' volumes), I think the fans will eventually come to understand that JJ, his cast and crew, and other employees and contractors of Lucasfilm knew what they were doing and respected the IP.

 

But since the hive-mind of Star Wars fans assumes it's smarter than Mr. Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan, Rian Johnson, and Kathleen Kennedy... that's all that matters, right?  (Now this  is sarcasm!)

 

With the utmost sincerity, @Schilkeman, I urge all fans of Star Wars to open its next "door".

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8 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Out of ten films

 

There's 11 - the 9 episodes, Rogue One, and Solo

 

8 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

, three (and counting) live action shows

 

There's 4 now - Mandalorian, Boba Fett, Obi-Wan, Andor

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I think Taika Waititi's film is supposed' to be post-episode 9, which sounds more promising to me than most things in development (though I really enjoy the Mando show)

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7 minutes ago, Jay said:

I think Taika Waititi's film is supposed' to be post-episode 9, which sounds more promising to me than most things in development (though I really enjoy the Mando show)

 

Personally I don't think of the post ROTJ shows we've gotten as prequels, but as the true sequels.  The sequel trilogy feels like a weird island I hope Lucasfilm just steers around (aka pretends didn't happen).

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9 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

The Mando and Boba Fett shows take place post-Episode VI.

 

I know.

 

8 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Personally I don't think of the post ROTJ shows we've gotten as prequels, but as the true sequels.  The sequel trilogy feels like a weird island I hope Lucasfilm just steers around (aka pretends didn't happen).

 

They feel like prequels to me, setting up things paid off in episode 7-9 like Snoke and force-healing

 

I'm not complaining!

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44 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

And really, it's a TV franchise now.

 

Its also effectively the third comic-book franchise alongside Marvel and DC: it took something of the more picaresque quality of those franchises, over the more cyclical thing that George Lucas was aiming for post-1980.

 

There's a kind of poetic irony to it all: Most of George Lucas' cinematic inspirations were things he caught on TV, like serials; and comics or comic-book-like stories like Galactic Patrol.

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I understand why franchises are hesitant to move past the events of their original moneymakers, but good lord if it isn't boring watching the same locations in the same 20-year period of an entirely imagined universe. Star Trek was stuck in it for a good few decades post-TNG and is only now getting out of it, albeit with mixed results. Picard is extremely uneven, but the most recent season of Discovery was quite good IMO.

 

Lucasfilm have largely bungled things with the uneven sequels and inexplicably Tatooine-heavy foci of Mando/Boba. If you want to steer clear of muddying the waters of continuity and canon that's fine, just jump ahead a few hundred years! Mind you, it's a terrifically poor universe in terms of world-building; for some strange reason there's zero technological advancement in the 4,000 years since Knights of the Old Republic. Must be all the war.

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8 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

No, but Yoda did say, "A prophesy that misread could have been".  I'll also note that what 'balance of the Force' meant was never discussed/revealed/confirmed in the films. Some Jedi thought it meant 'bring an end to the Sith'. I don't disagree with them.

This just seems to be a constant stream of changing the subject to avoid having to honestly answer the original question

 

Anyway I’ve said my peace and provided a counter of your reading, I’ll let people make up their own minds now

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18 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I like Tatooine.  More.  More!

I have never understood fascination gen x’rs (who are making most of these shows) have with Tatooine. Like, look at all the awesome worlds created in the prequels and TCW. Explore those! Make your own! Do something cool. “This version of Tatooine has red-eyes Jawas,” is not cool.

 

i disagree with some people here about the number of good Star Wars movies. I unironically love the prequels, and always have. I went searching for their depth in the ST and was disappointed.

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1 minute ago, Schilkeman said:

I have never understood fascination gen x’rs (who are making most of these shows) have with Tatooine. Like, look at all the awesome worlds created in the prequels and TCW. Explore those! Make your own! Do something cool. “This version of Tatooine has red-eyes Jawas,” is not cool.

 

i disagree with some people here about the number of good Star Wars movies. I unironically love the prequels, and always have. I went searching for their depth in the ST and was disappointed.


I somewhat blame the Prequels because they capitulate it as this place of cosmic importance so other stories can’t help but pay tribute to that idea

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TBF the new stories that have been on Tatooine recently haven’t exactly been “main story of the entire galaxy” type stories.  Like, Boba fighting the Pyke Syndicate for local power is hardly bright center of the universe.  But I liked it!

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True, while the stories in BOBF, The Mandalorian and Obi Wan aren't the main story, there's a whole galaxy out there to explore and Tatooine seems to be the one planet that gets visited the most in the live action shows.

 

Which is a shame, because the animated side has explored many different planets, only returning to Tatooine sparingly. 

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My guilty pleasure wish for the sequels was that they return to Kamino. Its my favorite planet from the prequels and the JW Kamino theme with the swells is something else. But Bad Batch is scratching that itch for me

 

Anyways, agreed that the Tatooine card has been played far too many times. On that note, Jakku, Jedha and Pasanna aka not-Tatooine is a bit lame imo. There are so many other biomes whyyy must they insist on a desert each time? JJ even went to Jordan for the Pasanna scenes, after Gareth Edwards already used it for Jedha!

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25 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

My guilty pleasure wish for the sequels was that they return to Kamino. Its my favorite planet from the prequels and the JW Kamino theme with the swells is something else. But Bad Batch is scratching that itch for me

 

For me it felt like it's a planet more suited to the prequel era than the sequel, just based on it having more impact on that era and not being of any revelance after that though. But yeah Bad Batch really scratches that itch in following up on Kamino's place in the larger story.

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1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

TBF the new stories that have been on Tatooine recently haven’t exactly been “main story of the entire galaxy” type stories.  Like, Boba fighting the Pyke Syndicate for local power is hardly bright center of the universe.  But I liked it!


Both of those stories also mined the shit out of any iconography from the movies they could get their hands on. Re-introducing R5 of all things...really?

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2 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:


Both of those stories also mined the shit out of any iconography from the movies they could get their hands on. Re-introducing R5 of all things...really?

Agreed, for me this comes down to a very big problem that the live action side of Disney Star Wars has, outside of the sequel trilogy the focus is on throwing as many references to the OT as possible in a very cheap attempt to get you endeared to the new property. While the animated side has very much tried to enrich and add to the larger story, with the references to the OT being minimal 

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3 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

I somewhat blame the Prequels because they capitulate it as this place of cosmic importance so other stories can’t help but pay tribute to that idea

With how much this demographic seems to hate the prequels and their aesthetic, I'm not sure. I blame the Cantina scene, personally. Ironically, it was meant to show how big and diverse the galaxy was, without actually showing how big and diverse the galaxy was, because it was impossible to do so on the film's budget and then-state of sfx, but it keeps getting repeated in the Disney era to the point were it makes the galaxy feel samey and small.

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10 hours ago, Jay said:

There's 11 - the 9 episodes, Rogue One, and Solo

Both CARAVAN OF COURAGE, and EWOKS: BATTLE FOR ENDOR had cinema releases.

 

 

(edit) plus what Mattris said: THE CLONE WARS .

That's 14. Smug mode :)

 

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2 hours ago, Groovygoth666 said:

 

For me it felt like it's a planet more suited to the prequel era than the sequel, just based on it having more impact on that era and not being of any revelance after that though. But yeah Bad Batch really scratches that itch in following up on Kamino's place in the larger story.

 

I completely agree, but when the sequels were still a completely clean slate it would have been a nice way to tie the prequels and sequels together if Kylo Ren had to find Kamino to track down an old artifact related to Sify-Dyas or something. Or even Ochi of Bestoon who is a collector of Sith artifacts in canon. It could have had some degree of relevance if the plot dictated it. Reminds me of the galactic civil war rebels vs. stormtroopers Kamino map on the old Battlefront 2 game on my original Xbox :wub:

 

Anyways, obviously too late to integrate it somehow now that the sequels have all came and went

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1 hour ago, Schilkeman said:

 

With how much this demographic seems to hate the prequels and their aesthetic, I'm not sure. I blame the Cantina scene, personally. Ironically, it was meant to show how big and diverse the galaxy was, without actually showing how big and diverse the galaxy was, because it was impossible to do so on the film's budget and then-state of sfx, but it keeps getting repeated in the Disney era to the point were it makes the galaxy feel samey and small.

What do you mean by 'this demographic'?

I'm not sure I would blame the original material for being constantly ripped off and ripped off poorly

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I'm referring again to gen x'rs (of which I am on the tail end btw) who were the most vocal in their dislike of the prequals when they came out, and who drove so much of the hate around them.

 

"If you release Star Wars too early, it's Flash Gordon. If you release it too late, it doesn't fit with the imagination of the time." Bill Moyers

 

The very earnest prequels did not meet the imagination of 1999's zeitgeist-driving adults., The Matrix, the film that did, came out two months earlier. Most of the people making Star Wars now were around at that time, and I think it has influenced their decision making. At least, it's clear from the ST that they didn't want to touch the prequals with a ten-foot pole.

 

I don't blame the cantina scene as in "it's bad." I blame the people making creative decisions about Star Wars for getting so hung up on the vibe of that scene and setting. It's a whole galaxy, let's see it. 

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9 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

Lucasfilm have largely bungled things with the uneven sequels and inexplicably Tatooine-heavy foci of Mando/Boba. If you want to steer clear of muddying the waters of continuity and canon that's fine, just jump ahead a few hundred years! Mind you, it's a terrifically poor universe in terms of world-building; for some strange reason there's zero technological advancement in the 4,000 years since Knights of the Old Republic. Must be all the war.

 

With any story that has a proper (author/creator-intended) interpretation, (audience) perception is not reality.

 

Continuing the story hundreds of years later would still affect canon continuity. (Why/how did the story lead there?)

 

Star Wars does not exist to 'world-build'. Since it's an allegory, it should be expected that any worlds included contribute to the overall narrative and themes.

 

I'm pretty sure I know the reason: The citizens of the Star Wars civilization became complacent.

 

8 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

This just seems to be a constant stream of changing the subject to avoid having to honestly answer the original question

 

Anyway I’ve said my peace and provided a counter of your reading, I’ll let people make up their own minds now

 

What question? Didn't I answer them all, whilst countering with facts, logic, and canon excerpts?

 

7 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

i disagree with some people here about the number of good Star Wars movies. I unironically love the prequels, and always have. I went searching for their depth in the ST and was disappointed.

 

Trust me, the Sequel Trilogy has depth. You just don't know it yet. What depth did you find in the prequels or the OT?

 

5 hours ago, Groovygoth666 said:

While the animated side has very much tried to enrich and add to the larger story, with the references to the OT being minimal 

 

Larger story?

 

4 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

the Cantina scene... was meant to show how big and diverse the galaxy was, without actually showing how big and diverse the galaxy was... but it keeps getting repeated in the Disney era to the point were it makes the galaxy feel samey and small.

 

 "It's a small world after all..."   Especially with hyperspace and instant communication across the galaxy!

 

3 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Both CARAVAN OF COURAGE, and EWOKS: BATTLE FOR ENDOR had cinema releases 

That's 13 :)

 

Plus, The Clone Wars  full-length animated movie.

 

3 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

I completely agree, but when the sequels were still a completely clean slate it would have been a nice way to tie the prequels and sequels together if Kylo Ren had to find Kamino to track down an old artifact related to Sify-Dyas or something. Or even Ochi of Bestoon who is a collector of Sith artifacts in canon. It could have had some degree of relevance if the plot dictated it. Reminds me of the galactic civil war rebels vs. stormtroopers Kamino map on the old Battlefront 2 game on my original Xbox :wub:

 

Anyways, obviously too late to integrate it somehow now that the sequels have all came and went

 

"Always with you what cannot be done."

 

3 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

... it's clear from the ST that they didn't want to touch the prequals with a ten-foot pole.

 

What about the sequels made you think that was Lucasfilm's intention? What elements of the prequels do you suppose could have been integrated into the sequels but were not?

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2 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

I'm referring again to gen x'rs (of which I am on the tail end btw) who were the most vocal in their dislike of the prequals when they came out, and who drove so much of the hate around them.

 

"If you release Star Wars too early, it's Flash Gordon. If you release it too late, it doesn't fit with the imagination of the time." Bill Moyers

 

The very earnest prequels did not meet the imagination of 1999's zeitgeist-driving adults., The Matrix, the film that did, came out two months earlier. Most of the people making Star Wars now were around at that time, and I think it has influenced their decision making. At least, it's clear from the ST that they didn't want to touch the prequals with a ten-foot pole.

 

I don't blame the cantina scene as in "it's bad." I blame the people making creative decisions about Star Wars for getting so hung up on the vibe of that scene and setting. It's a whole galaxy, let's see it. 


Well, this is why lumping people into big boxes is unwise. Dave Filoni is one of those people and he clearly has a great fondness for the Prequels as well as the Originals.

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10 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:

Well, this is why lumping people into big boxes is unwise. Dave Filoni is one of those people and he clearly has a great fondness for the Prequels as well as the Originals.

Just my theory, feel free to ignore.

 

I think Filoni acquired an appreciation for the prequals I'm not sure he would have had if he wasn't hired to run the show and worked so closely with George. He has spoken somewhat disparagingly about Anakin's characterization, as well as the writing, and the political overtones of the prequels. I also think he has some fundamental misunderstandings about the Jedi, which have become harder to ignore in the past couple of years, since he is now, up there, without all the assistance. 

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Isn't it more likely that it's you  who has "some fundamental misunderstandings about the Jedi" - not one of the creative leads at Lucasfilm who was hired and mentored by George Lucas?

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3 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

The biggest callback to the prequels from what I can recall is when Sheev says the dark side is a pathway to many abilities, some consider to be... Unnatural

 

And that was a callback to Episode III, which Disney christened "the one prequel we can call-back to without being cruxified."

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