Star Wars Disenchantment

[Bilbo 3,709]

Does anybody actually like Nickelback? 

[Demodex 557]

LOL

[Mattris 416]

On 04/04/2019 at 4:12 AM, Chen G. said:

... the cycle was perfectly complete without the sequel trilogy. Of course, one can enjoy the films, individually, as they're very well made. But to say in good concsience that they are part of one cycle or "saga" - not really, no.

 

You make a great point about the flow of a story, Chen. But regardless of how you want to consider the films - even the sequel films, in particular - they are all part of the same story. They exist in the same universe (and saga), whether you like (or watch) them or not.

 

On 04/04/2019 at 5:22 AM, Demodex said:

You are so delusional. The theme parks and Episode 9 are going to rake in tons of money.   Star Wars still has mass appeal, and even people not thrilled with TLJ will visit the park because it's STAR WARS. 

 

I'd say he succeeded, too. 

 

It really depends on what characters and settings the parks will feature. If IX (and the is Sequel Trilogy, in general) is well received, then a Sequel-themed Galaxy's Edge well make loads of money. If not, it's likely they will make some alterations.

 

I'd agree, JJ did succeed in "reanimating the original spirit of Star Wars"... to a fault. TFA was too much like the original film in its plot. Unfortunately, TLJ ignored or derailed most of TFA's set-ups... and at the very least, subverted many fans' expectations.

 

On 04/04/2019 at 7:39 AM, mstrox said:

Removing even the Star Wars portion of the conversation, what kind of rancid-ass parent tries to force their kid not to like something they like?

 

I'm not removing the Star Wars portion of the conversation. That's the reality of the situation. If the parents don't like these movies, it's quite unlikely they will be taking their kids to 'Sequel Trilogy Land', tickets to which will cost $150 each.

 

On 04/04/2019 at 7:52 AM, mstrox said:

Shitting on your kids’ personal taste will just end up making them the type of kids who shit on their peers’ personal taste.

 

I didn't say I would 'shit on their personal taste'. If they choose to support (pay for) Sequel Trilogy stuff with their own money, fine. But if they are young, living in my house, and expenditures became excessive (with any one thing), I would set limits.

[crumbs 14,304]

16 hours ago, Mattris said:

Disney purchased Lucasfilm for $4.05B about seven years ago. Please present factual evidence that they have made back their investment.

 

Disney bought Lucasfilm six years ago today and has already recouped its $4 billion investment

 

Disney's Star Wars Already Turns A Profit On Lucasfilm Purchase

 

Disney’s three Star Wars films have earned more than Lucasfilm was bought for

 

[Chen G. 3,944]

26 minutes ago, Mattris said:

regardless of how you want to consider the films - even the sequel films, in particular - they are all part of the same story. They exist in the same universe - and saga - whether you like - or watch - them or not.

 

That right there is why I dislike the term "Cinematic Universe" because it includes the assumption that its the shared setting that gives a film series its identity. If I were to make a drama film about a Naboo family dealing with their youngest contracting Cancer due to living too close to the powerplant (or whatever was the place where the duel in The Phantom Menace  took place), would that really be a Star Wars film? 

 

The term saga (popularized the Godfather series, I believe) is another one I don't care for. For one thing, it relates specifically to Norse stories, which Star Wars has little in common with, at least directly. Plus, actual sagas are often anything but one continuous story. So often, they are amalgams of multiple individual narratives with a very haphazard throughline, if any, and often said throughline is not even a recurring character or lineage.

 

At their core, stories aren't defined by iconography, setting or even character: they are defined primarily by their central conflict. Whenever I examine a serialized piece of filmmaking, it tends to fall into one of two categories: A cycle (in which the story of a single, central conflict is told in multiple entries) and a series or anthology (in which individual, episodic stories with recurring characters, iconography and/or setting). Indiana Jones is a series, Die Hard is a series: all entries are different stories or conflicts, but with the same character in their midst.

 

On the flipside, The Lord of the Rings is a cycle and - while its continuity and structure are more haphazard - the Star Wars episodes form a cycle. Its not about Anakin, Luke, the Skywalkers as a whole, and certainly not about Rey. Its not about the "Galaxy far far away." Its about the conflict between the Good Force users and their allies, fighting against the Bad Force Users and their henchmen.

 

And, as all conflicts in all stories do, they have a beginning, a middle and an end. You can't have an ending, a denoument and than start the storytelling again for such a long stretch. A conflict is only meaningful as long as one can feel its driving towards some kind of resolution. The Empire Strikes Back, which turned Star Wars into a cycle, did this very well. The Force Awakens does it very well for its own trilogy, but after the existing films already reached a resolution.

[Fargo 297]

18 minutes ago, Mattris said:

subverted many fans' expectations

 

That's how we know you're trolling. You keep repeating this phrase like it's clever or something. RLM does it better.

[Mattris 416]

21 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Disney bought Lucasfilm six years ago today and has already recouped its $4 billion investment

 

Disney's Star Wars Already Turns A Profit On Lucasfilm Purchase

 

Disney’s three Star Wars films have earned more than Lucasfilm was bought for

 

Once again, those articles only mention the box office tallies before the theater chains took their ~40% cut. The articles also failed to specify the profitability of the other revenue streams and expenditures. Within the Screenrant article:

"No exact profit margin was provided"

 

Try again.

 

14 minutes ago, Fargo said:

That's how we know you're trolling. You keep repeating this phrase like it's clever or something. RLM does it better.

 

It's true that TLJ subverted many fans' expectations. I'll keep saying it if I want. You can keep calling me a troll, but in this topic, you will always be wrong.

[Holko 9,499]

You say it like it's an inherently bad thing.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

We call it a space opera but it's really a soap opera.

[Mattris 416]

It will come as no surprise that I estimate, for the majority of Star Wars fans, most of TLJ's subversions resulted in a negative reaction.

[Holko 9,499]

Please present factual evidence.

[Chen G. 3,944]

13 minutes ago, Ghostbusters II said:

We call it a space opera but it's really a soap opera.

 

I heard George Lucas use that terminology, but its no less impertinent than "saga" or "cinematic universe".

 

And that's ignoring that to call a film or film series a "soap opera" is hardly complementary.

 

[John 2,032]

2 minutes ago, Mattris said:

It will come as no surprise that I estimate, for the majority of Star Wars fans, most of TLJ's subversions resulted in a negative reaction.

 

[Mattris 416]

On 04/04/2019 at 9:21 AM, Holko said:

Please present factual evidence.

 

Box office: $700M less than TFA

Second weekend drop-off: 67% (world record)

 

If the majority of people/fans liked the TLJ, it would have made more money and SOLO wouldn't have bombed.

 

I made an estimation based on feedback from fans (friends, family, individuals on the internet). Would you say the opposite is true: that the majority of Star Wars fans liked most of TLJ's subversions?

[Fabulin 3,510]

38 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Its not about Anakin, Luke, the Skywalkers as a whole,

and certainly not about Rey.

Its not about the "Galaxy far far away."

It's like poetry

[Fargo 297]

23 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Try again

 

You're the one spouting off nonsense. Why don't you provide some evidence besides just a personal opinion from a scorned SW fan.

[Chen G. 3,944]

5 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

It's like poetry

 

which is another argument about the structure of these films which I despise, by the way.

 

Its just an artsy-fartsy way of saying "Come! We have references!"

[Mattris 416]

On 04/04/2019 at 9:39 AM, Fargo said:

You're the one spouting off nonsense. Why don't you provide some evidence besides just a personal opinion from a scorned SW fan.

 

I just presented factual evidence. But beyond the box office numbers, I would just be pointing to various polls.

 

Regardless of our person opinions, the vibe of the fandom is clear: Star Wars is not as healthy as the fans - and Disney - would like. But things can change. For the sake of everyone involved, I sincerely hope that IX knocks it out of the park.

 

People keep saying that Disney has made Lucasfilm profitable. I ask for proof, and I'm provided links to articles that do not prove a damn thing.

[A24 4,326]

Did Solo "bomb" because of The Last Jedi? I thought it was because of:

 

 

Who is that guy?

[Holko 9,499]

Or because it was a meh film badly marketed and nobody asked for it in the first place.

[Mattris 416]

Those factors didn't help. But if TLJ had been widely praised/accepted, I'm certain it would have at least made back its massively-inflated budget.

[Holko 9,499]

Please provide factual evidence an unrelated film was the biggest factor in Solo's failure.

[Mattris 416]

Are you calling Star Wars - Episode VIII: The Last Jedi "unrelated" to SOLO: A Star Wars Story?

[Holko 9,499]

Different actors (except for Chewie the furniture), completely different production team, were produced in parallel, their stories have absolutely nothing to do with each other except for being in the same universe and reinforcing the dice.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

They were completely unrelated.

[leeallen01 2,134]

Ep9 will struggle to gross a billion. I think 900 million max. A simple explanation for my reasoning is that I saw TFA twice in cinemas before realising it was trash. I saw TLJ once before I realised it was trash. I never even went to see Solo, and neither will I see Ep9. Pretty much everyone I know followed an almost identical pattern to myself. Star Wars is losing 33% of its cinema going audience with each film released. 

[John 2,032]

IX will gross well over a billion. I don’t see how that’s even up for debate. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1,5 billion garuantued! 

[leeallen01 2,134]

Ep7 (2 billion)

Ep8 (1.3billion)

Ep9 (700 million)

 

That would be a nice round drop off of 700 each film. 

[Holko 9,499]

But don't you see he has anecdotal evidence from a sample group definitely representative of the world population?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

4 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

Ep9 will struggle to gross a billion. I think 900 million max. A simple explanation for my reasoning is that I saw TFA twice in cinemas before realising it was trash. I saw TLJ once before I realised it was trash. I never even went to see Solo, and neither will I see Ep9. Pretty much everyone I know followed an almost identical pattern to myself. Star Wars is losing 33% of its cinema going audience with each film released. 

 

I didn't see TLJ or Solo at all at the cinema.

[Demodex 557]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

TLJ's subversions resulted in a negative reaction.

 

From crybabies.

[leeallen01 2,134]

I was just giving an example which exactly coincides with the box office results. Not a fluke.

 

Like I said. I saw TFA more than once. It got 2 billion. I saw TLJ only once, it got 1.3 billion. I didn't see Solo, it got less than 400 million. And everyone I know did the same. Hence the box office drop off. Because the entire world clearly did the same. 

[Chen G. 3,944]

Return of the Jedi did more money than The Empire Strikes Back, though; I seem to recall that Revenge of the Sith also improved upon Attack of the Clones. So its not entirely appropriate to expect IX to continue the downward trend from The Force Awakens to The Last Jedi.

 

To be fair, though, IX is coming out at a very competitive year, with Endgame, Godzilla and The Lion King. I still think it will do over one billion.

[Holko 9,499]

Endgame will be watched at home on bluray when IX comes out. No direct competition there.

[leeallen01 2,134]

1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

Return of the Jedi did more money than The Empire Strikes Back, though; I seem to recall that Revenge of the Sith also improved upon Attack of the Clones. So its not entirely appropriate to expect IX to continue the downward trend from The Force Awakens to The Last Jedi.

 

I think it will do over one billion.

 

Good point yes, but both ROTJ and ROTS were huge finales with massively high expectations and stakes to resolve. People desperately wanted to know the endings of those two trilogies. Whereas ep9 isn't exciting at all in anticipation because the story isn't going anywhere and there are ZERO stakes to resolve.

 

 

[KK 3,307]

Anyone who doesn't think that IX is going to cross the billion dollar mark needs to wake up. It doesn't take that much to do that these days anyway.

[Chen G. 3,944]

Yeah. These films are also paraded in Digital IMAX and in 3D post-conversions. Both of which boost revenue enormously.

 

3 minutes ago, Holko said:

Endgame will be watched at home on bluray when IX comes out. No direct competition there.

 

Yeah, but there's a saturation there. Most people don't go to the theater too often every year. With a couple of must-see pictures early in the year, they might feel like they've spent enough time in the multiplex and stay at home.

 

2 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

ep9 isn't exciting at all in anticipation because the story isn't going anywhere and there are ZERO stakes to resolve.

 

How is that?

[leeallen01 2,134]

1 minute ago, KK said:

Anyone who doesn't think that IX is going to cross the billion dollar mark needs to wake up. It doesn't take that much to do that these days anyway.

 

Solo didn't even get half way to a billion. And that is a Star Wars film...

[Holko 9,499]

They'll have 8 months from Endgame to saturate down.

 

Yes, everyone had to know the ending of RotS that everyone knew since 1983.

[Chen G. 3,944]

Since 1980, really.

 

9 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

Solo didn't even get half way to a billion. And that is a Star Wars film...

 

Solo is a spinoff. Its a completely different situation compared to the main episodes. Of course, Solo's embrassaing box office numbers aren't to be ignored, but I don't think they'll have much bearing on IX.

[KK 3,307]

There's too much romanticizing and grandstanding here about the "Grand Demise of Star Wars". Not everyone liked TLJ. It had a bunch of social media trolls. So what? Who cares. Most of those same impassioned haters will be lining up for the next one all the same. It's one of the year's biggest blockbusters, and the finale to one of Hollywood's biggest franchises. $1 billion guaranteed. Wake up people. Unfortunately, the world isn't entirely run by vitriolic online forum rhetoric...

 

- KK, who doesn't care much about Star Wars these days, but will go see IX all the same

[Holko 9,499]

Even our beloved Mattriss is reading every bit of canonised fanfiction he can and will go see IX as soon as possible!

[KK 3,307]

7 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

 

Solo didn't even get half way to a billion. And that is a Star Wars film...

 

Solo is not IX. It's pretty much inconsequential in comparison. Regardless of one's feelings toward TLJ, people are much more invested in that trilogy.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see a dropoff in box office numbers for the future spinoff films. But IX will be a success, without a doubt.

[leeallen01 2,134]

3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

How is that?

 

Are you serious? What is there to resolve that is exciting? Ep8 ended the trilogy after 2 films.

 

3 minutes ago, Holko said:

Yes, everyone had to know the ending of RotS that everyone knew since 1983.

 

Come on now, people went crazy for the obi wan v vader scenario and wanted to see how he became Vader.

 

3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Solo is a spinoff. Its a completely different situation compared to the main episodes.

 

 

Erm...Rogue One got over a Billion. TLJ barely outgrossed it and that was a spinoff.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I don't think I'll see any more. I didn't like Episodes VII or VIII. Rogue Leader and Han Solo literally put me to sleep. I don't like any of the new characters. 

[Chen G. 3,944]

1 minute ago, leeallen01 said:

Are you serious? What is there to resolve that is exciting? Ep8 ended the trilogy after 2 films.

 

What happens to Kylo Ren? What happens to Rey? Will the resistance replenish its numbers? What will become of the First Order and how? What's to become of Poe? of Finn?

 

There's no rule about the second film in a trilogy having to end in a cliffhanger that sets up the third film. The Force Awakens had a cliffhanger. It would've been too much for The Last Jedi to end on one, as well.

[leeallen01 2,134]

3 minutes ago, KK said:

 

Solo is not IX. It's pretty much inconsequential in comparison. Regardless of one's feelings toward TLJ, people are much more invested in that trilogy.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see a dropoff in box office numbers for the future spinoff films. But IX will be a success, without a doubt.

 

Again, where is the investment in the new trilogy going forward. TLJ has gotten more hate every day since it came out. Literally everyone I know, whether friends and family, or online contacts, ALL hated it and didn't see Solo and are not interested in Ep9.

 

I didn't say it wouldn't be a success. I just predict another dropoff. And may not reach a billion. 

[Holko 9,499]

I literally don't know a single person IRL who hated it. And that contributes exactly as much proof to the point as your experience.

[leeallen01 2,134]

1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

 

What happens to Kylo Ren? What happens to Rey? Will the resistance replenish its numbers? What will become of the First Order and how? What's to become of Poe? of Finn?

 

There's no rule about the second film in a trilogy having to end in a cliffhanger that sets up the third film. The Force Awakens had a cliffhanger. It would've been too much for The Last Jedi to end on one, as well.

 

So ROTJ had - will Luke defeat Vader? Can they save Han? Is Vader telling the truth about him being Luke's father? Can they defeat the Empire? Etc

 

And Ep9 has - what's to become of the people and will the resistance get more resistance people? 

 

Haha...okay I can feel the world's excitement.