Star Wars Disenchantment

[Mattris 416]

On 06/04/2019 at 11:40 AM, Demodex said:

@Mattris  According to your theory what does Rey have to do with Palpatine's contingency plan?

 

Like Vader, Rey was conceived of the Force by Palpatine - or within some contraption designed by Palpatine - on Jakku, as part of his Contingency in case of his death or the fall of the Empire. Perhaps Rey was a 'Force test-tube baby' who was conceived at the time Ben first turned to the Dark Side when, as a boy, he learned that his family had kept the identity of his grandfather secret from him and the galaxy: Anakin Skywalker was Darth Vader. (The bolded text is canon.)

 

On 06/04/2019 at 12:24 PM, leeallen01 said:

It baffles me how anyone can think Disney and Kathleen Kennedy has any idea what the hell they're doing with Star Wars. 

 

- Kicking out Lucas' ideas was always part of their grand plan.

- Hiring J.J. was always part of their grand plan.

- J.J. refusing to return was always part of their grand plan.

- The hiring of an amateur like Rian Johnson and accepting his first draft that completely dismisses everything from Episode 7 (including changing the personalities of every character) was always part of their grand plan.

- Murdering every single original character and never reuniting them was always part of their grand plan.

-Hiring and firing Edwards, Lord and Miller, and Trevorrow, and reshooting and rewriting their ideas, scripts, and most of their already shot films, was always part of their grand plan.

- Begging J.J. to come back even though he said no many times, was always part of their grand plan. 

- Ending their trilogy after two films, giving their story nowhere to go of any signifiance or meaning was always part of their grand plan.

 

Disney haven't got a fu**ing clue what's going on, and watching their dumpster fire getting more and more out of control is sickly amusing to me.

 

Star Wars died many years ago. It's nothing more than a reanimated corpse now. But Disney are doing what they do best; resurrecting dead things that no one wants any more, and convincing the world to give them money for it.

 

- George Lucas said he got frustrated because they wanted to go nostalgic with the Sequel Trilogy, and he didn't... so he left.

- JJ was hired to make VII and had an idea of where he wanted the trilogy to go. He told John Williams, who wrote Rey's Theme accordingly.

- JJ originally said he just wanted to do the first film. He never 'refused to return'... but was eventually asked back after "creative differences" with Trevorrow.

- We don't know if they shot Johnson's first draft. TLJ doesn't 'dismiss everything from Episode 7' - just presents a continuation of its story in ways most didn't expect... but 9 still remains. What character personalities changed? I think the characters just found themselves in vastly different situations.

- This trilogy was meant to show the conclusion of the original characters. Who says they will 'never reunite' on screen?

- Edwards wasn't fired. Another director was hired film Rogue One's re-shoots. Behind the scenes and financially, SOLO was a perfect storm of failure - I'll give you that. (Although, I've heard the film isn't bad.)

- We don't know if JJ was 'begged to come back' or if he "said no many times".

- The trilogy is not even close to being finished: Who is Rey? Why she, in particular, so powerful? Why did Ben turn evil? Will he be redeemed? Will either of them turn (Dark Side to Light Side, etc.)? Will either sacrifice themselves for the greater good, to kill someone, or to save someone? Will the Force ghosts of Luke or Anakin make an appearance? Will there be another baddy? Will the Resistance be able to defeat the First Order? What's to become of Leia, Lando, Chewie, and the droids? Will the galaxy be at peace/balance at the end of it all? I'd say those elements are of "significance". And yes, I believe leaving those answers to the end was part of their grand plan.

 

So even with the countless Palpatine/Jakku clues within the new canon, "Disney haven't got a fu**ing clue what's going on"? It's not a dumpster fire unless IX fails... financially or with the fans.

 

Star Wars is not dead and will never die. The fans will always want it. Disney is letting Lucasfilm try a different approach. After all that's happened with the franchise and fandom, we'll see if they'll be able to 'convince the world to give them money for it' once again. What a massive year for Star Wars.

 

On 06/04/2019 at 12:26 PM, Stefancos said:

Star wars was always about the money, LOL!

 

Wrong. It's about telling stories... and doing it in a way that pushes the boundaries of film-making. Most fans would agree that Lucasfilm is doing that now, albeit unconventionally.

 

On 06/04/2019 at 12:29 PM, leeallen01 said:

That doesn't mean the quality has to be terrible. Marvel is all about the money. Peter Jackson made LOTR because he wanted to. But New Line Cinema funded it because they wanted the money. There's a difference. Do you think Kathleen Kennedy wants to make Star Wars because she wants good stories? She just wants more money. 

 

Kathleen Kennedy is rich and at the end of her movie-making career. Money isn't her desire. She wants to use Star Wars as a vehicle to push her personal agendas (feminism, forced diversity, SJW, etc.). She literally admitted this even before TFA was released. Thankfully, all signs point to the fact that JJ just wants to make entertaining movies. With all that has transpired over the last couple of years - and so much on the line - I have a feeling that Kathleen Kennedy has been told to stay out of his way.

[Demodex 557]

Quote

Kicking out Lucas' ideas was always part of their grand plan.

- Hiring J.J. was always part of their grand plan.

- J.J. refusing to return was always part of their grand plan.

- The hiring of an amateur like Rian Johnson and accepting his first draft that completely dismisses everything from Episode 7 (including changing the personalities of every character) was always part of their grand plan.

- Murdering every single original character and never reuniting them was always part of their grand plan.

-Hiring and firing Edwards, Lord and Miller, and Trevorrow, and reshooting and rewriting their ideas, scripts, and most of their already shot films, was always part of their grand plan.

- Begging J.J. to come back even though he said no many times, was always part of their grand plan. 

- Ending their trilogy after two films, giving their story nowhere to go of any signifiance or meaning was always part of their grand plan.

 

 

I seriously doubt ANY OF THIS was their grand plan other than not using Lucas's ideas for the ST, and that's not a bad thing. 

 

If any of this is true, oh well. At least we're getting 3 good movies out of this trilogy. 

 

15 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Like Vader, Rey was conceived of the Force by Palpatine - or within some contraption designed by Palpatine - on Jakku, as part of his Contingency in case of his death or the fall of the Empire.

 

BUT WHY???

[rough cut 1,714]

8 hours ago, dougie said:

 

I think you mean original SW drew inspiration from Third Reich iconography in application to the way the Imperial military is portrayed? If so, that's about apt I guess.

 

Whereas TLJ is just one tippy toe away from breaking the fourth wall and demanding that the audience be aware of societal injustices and "do something about it or else you are complicit in the crimes of the white fascist regime of Space America!"

 

Haha, that about sums it up!

[Arpy 4,145]

I'm with @Mattris on the plan.

 

It's simply not feasible to pitch a trilogy of sequel films and not have some plan, as I said earlier @leeallen01  I don't believe each film was planned to the extent that they knew every detail, but a general trajectory, which is why Johnson had some leeway to tell his story whilst remaining respectful of Abrams and Co.'s work. Don't forget that these films are in development for upwards of two years, so much has to be organized down to the last grain of sand. I don't see Disney throwing money at a wall and hoping some of it sticks around along enough to make their money back and more. 

 

@leeallen01 Granted that I'm with the naysayers that TLJ doesn't have a solid story, it has sloppy parts and some awkward choices, but I wouldn't say it's a 'Dumpster fire', it's not even a bad film.

 

 

[Mattris 416]

On 06/04/2019 at 8:34 PM, Arpy said:

I'm with @Mattris on the plan.

 

It's simply not feasible to pitch a trilogy of sequel films and not have some plan, as I said earlier @leeallen01  I don't believe each film was planned to the extent that they knew every detail, but a general trajectory, which is why Johnson had some leeway to tell his story whilst remaining respectful of Abrams and Co.'s work. Don't forget that these films are in development for upwards of two years, so much has to be organized down to the last grain of sand. I don't see Disney throwing money at a wall and hoping some of it sticks around along enough to make their money back and more. 

 

@leeallen01 Granted that I'm with the naysayers that TLJ doesn't have a solid story, it has sloppy parts and some awkward choices, but I wouldn't say it's a 'Dumpster fire', it's not even a bad film.

 

 

 

Thanks, @Arpy. Happy to finally have someone else agree with me. Besides realizing the logical / business side of things, one could even make sense of it all this way:

 

Take away all the behind-the-scenes drama/speculation... even take away the plethora of in-canon clues (especially ones centered around Palpatine & Jakku). What's left is the first new entries into the franchise: Episode VII and its score. JJ was hired to make the first film of a trilogy, but he would have had an idea of where things would be headed... and would have respected John Williams enough to tell him that Rey will be related to Palpatine and Vader:

 

Rey's Theme starts with the first two notes of The Emperor's Theme... and ends with a variation on - and incomplete quote of - Darth Vader's Theme. The best example is at the end of "The Scavenger". At 3:23, the flute plays the variation (with octave F-sharps instead of G's) and then the precise first and third note of the cadence (ending motif) of Vader's Theme (G and B). Silence was left for the middle note (D), signifying that Rey's fate is uncertain. The reference occurs again at the end of "The Jedi Steps and Finale" at 8:29, this time with the brass and an altered last chord (so as not to be too obvious). Factor-in the other Palpatine/Vader musical quotes within the rest of the TFA score... and those within the score to TLJ, and it's clear that John Williams is in on this little secret.)

 

Even if Rian Johnson didn't make VIII as JJ would have preferred... and with the unfortunate passing of Carrie Fisher, JJ was eventually given the opportunity to "make things right" with IX. I expect he will proceed as best as he can to create the conclusion he envisioned from the beginning. So there was a plan, and JJ will see it to the end.

 

On 06/04/2019 at 6:54 PM, Demodex said:

BUT WHY???

 

Good question. The device/facility Palpatine set-up on Jakku, could have been a 'Force magnet / incubator'. Tagging onto what I said in my previous message... As Ben grew in the Force, so did Rey. Ben is 'Dark Side pulling to the Light' and Rey is 'Light Side pulling to the Dark', and the Force is trying to maintain balance. Perhaps Palpatine's life force lies dormant within Rey. Visited by the Force ghost of Anakin and/or Luke, Kylo learns that he has been utterly deceived - that it wasn't his grandfather showing him the "power of the Dark" - and will turn fully back to the Light. The Force compensates, and Rey turns fully to the Dark Side, becoming Palpatine reincarnated. Just one possibility.

[Arpy 4,145]

Our agreement on the plan only goes as far as there being a plan. Not the Palpatine plots.

[Mattris 416]

Fair enough. Do you recognize the inclusion of The Emperor's Theme and Darth Vader's Theme within Rey's Theme?

[Arpy 4,145]

I hear similarities, most likely coincidental and nothing to do with Vader of Palpatine. To me the Vader similarities seem more ornamental than intentional melodic/thematic hints @Mattris

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I doubt JJ Baby is some great auteur like Mattris suggests.

[Mattris 416]

On 06/04/2019 at 10:43 PM, Arpy said:

I hear similarities, most likely coincidental and nothing to do with Vader of Palpatine. To me the Vader similarities seem more ornamental than intentional melodic/thematic hints @Mattris

 

First of all, these particular notes (in both references) make up the main line of her main theme. None of the notes are "ornamental".

 

The interval of the first two notes of Rey's Theme (rising minor 3rd) are the exact first two notes of The Emperor's Theme. The odds of John Williams choosing these particular notes 'coincidentally' is beyond unlikely.

 

Add in the fact that her theme also ends with a variation on - and then an incomplete quote of - Darth Vader's Theme, just omitting the second to last note, means that it is an absolute certainty that John Williams included both references intentionally.

 

As you are aware, John Williams is one of the most talented composers of all time. I'm surprised you don't give him credit for something so obviously deliberate. This technique wouldn't even be unprecedented, as he incorporated Darth Vader's Theme into Anakin's Theme.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,892]

Even if JJ had planned on Rey and Palpatine sharing a connection (which I guarantee is not the case), I'm pretty sure John Williams would not have been given that information. I think you're looking way too far into this stuff. Same thing happened with both TFA and TLJ; people looked at every microscopic detail, created their own outlandish theories, and just assumed they were true. When they inevitably weren't, they became angry that the film did not match their expectations. Then the next film would come along and the same theorizing and disappointment would follow. Rinse, repeat. It's an endless cycle you guys seem to be stuck in.

[Mattris 416]

You cannot "guarantee" anything. I simply recognized the clues in the films, canon material, and music. Collectively, these related clues add up: Palpatine, who spoke of creating life and cheating death... and personally set-up a Contingency on Rey's home planet of Jakku, will make an impact to the story in a significant way. As the main baddy from the other trilogies, how would his inclusion into the conclusion of the Saga be "outlandish"?

 

How can you be "pretty sure John Williams would not have been given that information"? Only a fool would think that John Williams accidentally - or coincidentally - composed Rey's Theme to include references to The Emperor's Theme and Darth Vader's Theme. The FACT that the references exist in her theme mean that JJ did have a plan... and I figured it out.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Rey's Theme is based on The Force Theme, @Mattris.

[Mattris 416]

Yes, I'm aware that's what John Williams said.

 

But is it really outlandish that he also skillfully - and slyly - referenced the other themes? He's that good of a composer, you know.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Its not just something John Williams said. Its something fans picked up on pretty much as soon as the OST leaked.

 

I don't think JJ had any kind of "masterplan" for the trilogy when he was doing TFA. Or he would have stayed on as a writer/director.

 

And I don't think scouring for clues in the music will get you anywhere. Williams isn't a Howard Shore.

[Mattris 416]

It's not surprising that fans picked up on it. Rey’s Theme shares a chordal relationship with the Force Theme, and Williams counterpoints the two during the end credits.

 

On numerous occasions, JJ said he wanted to only direct the first film of the trilogy because the films take so much time, and he often has to be away from his family for extended periods. It had nothing to do with 'not having a master plan'. For the countless reasons I've explained in this thread, I'm positive JJ had a plan for the trilogy.

 

Listen to the end of "The Scavenger". Do you honestly not hear Vader Theme (cadence) minus the second note, but with a space where the note would be? These references exist whether you want to acknowledge them or not. If you truly think their presence is purely coincidental, then you underestimate the musical prowess of John Williams... and I can't help you.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 minute ago, Mattris said:

If you truly think their presence is purely coincidental, then you underestimate the musical prowess of John Williams... and I can't help you.

 I would not be on this place for nearly 20 years if I thought that. I find it very amusing you're trying to justify your position by suggestion I don't really understand John Williams.Or underestimate him.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,892]

All I'm saying is that if you keep assuming that your obscure hypotheses are correct, then you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. Rey's theme having 2 chords in common with another character likely means absolutely nothing, just pure coincidence. It's just his style of writing. I'm positive JJ had no master plan, and even if he did I'm sure that was locked down tight, with only he and Kathy knowing about it. If they wouldn't tell the actors about this stuff, they certainty wouldn't have told the composer.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Aren't the chords for The Emperor's Theme pretty common anyway? Cinque's theme from Amistad is quite similar to it too, for instance.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,892]

Combine any two given chords and I bet they'd be pretty common.

[Mattris 416]

On 07/04/2019 at 2:29 AM, Stefancos said:

 I would not be on this place for nearly 20 years if I thought that. I find it very amusing you're trying to justify your position by suggestion I don't really understand John Williams.Or underestimate him.

I'm not 'trying to justify a position'. I'm stating FACTS: The opening notes (not chords) of Rey's Theme are The Emperor's Theme. Out of all combinations of first two notes (dozens within a octave, or so), those particular notes were chosen, in that sequence.

 

The ending notes of her theme are a variation on - and then an incomplete quote of - Darth Vader's Theme, just omitting the second to last note.

 

So, The Emperor's Theme + Darth Vader's Theme bookends the theme for the new mystery character. You are underestimating John Williams if you think he composed her theme without realizing what he had done.

 

On 07/04/2019 at 2:30 AM, Manakin Skywalker said:

All I'm saying is that if you keep assuming that your obscure hypotheses are correct, then you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. Rey's theme having 2 chords in common with another character likely means absolutely nothing, just pure coincidence. It's just his style of writing. I'm positive JJ had no master plan, and even if he did I'm sure that was locked down tight, with only he and Kathy knowing about it. If they wouldn't tell the actors about this stuff, they certainty wouldn't have told the composer.

 

I'm not talking about chords; the references are found within the main line of her main theme. John Williams would not compose her theme, a Star Wars Theme, to include The Emperor's Theme AND Vader's Theme out of "coincidence". Listen to yourself.

 

You don't think John Williams can keep a secret? Clearly, JJ Baby trusts him.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Even if you are stating FACTS, you are still assigning a conclusion to them, and a judgement if Lucasfilm does something that doesnt fit your conclusion.

[Holko 9,525]

Or JW just chose those notes in that sequence from a hazy memory becuase they sound Star Warsy enough.

[Mattris 416]

On 07/04/2019 at 2:53 AM, Stefancos said:

Even if you are stating FACTS, you are still assigning a conclusion to them, and a judgement if Lucasfilm does something that doesnt fit your conclusion.

 

Are you saying that John Williams could have deliberately included those specific character theme references in Rey's Theme for no reason at all?

 

Or perhaps he did so to deceive people? (That is, Rey will not be related to Palpatine or Vader.)

 

Or are you saying that John Williams was told of Rey's origins... but might end up being lied to if Lucasfilm doesn't make IX with Rey related to Palpatine or Vader?

[Holko 9,525]

I'm not saying any of those, I'm not delusional.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

3 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

Are you saying that John Williams could have deliberately included those specific character theme references in Rey's Theme for no reason at all?

 

Why did John Williams use a big statement of Leia's Theme right after Ben dies in Star wars? Should he not have used The Force Theme, or Luke's instead?

Why doesn't he use Luke and Leia in ROTS when they show the twins?

Why did he use the Rebel Fanfare for when the Falcon was tractor-beamed into the Death Star?

 

[Quintus 5,399]

John Williams' minor theme for the alliance in Return of the Jedi was a purposeful foreshadowing of a distant future expedition on a dinosaur overrun alien world as manifest in Spielberg's The Lost World. Everyone knows that. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Just now, Quintus said:

John Williams' minor theme for the alliance in Return of the Jedi was a purposeful foreshadowing of a distant future expedition on a dinosaur overrun alien world as manifest in Spielberg's The Lost World. Everyone knows that. 

 

Exactly!

[Demodex 557]

I'm not hearing the similarity between Rey's theme and the other two. 

[Mattris 416]

The 'conclusion I am assigning to my factual observations' is that in IX, Rey will be revealed to be an Anakin-like creation of the Force and might turn - or at least be tempted - to the Dark Side. If this does not happen in IX, then I will feel John Williams was lied to.

 

On 07/04/2019 at 3:14 AM, Stefancos said:

Why did John Williams use a big statement of Leia's Theme right after Ben dies in Star wars? Should he not have used The Force Theme, or Luke's instead?

Why doesn't he use Luke and Leia in ROTS when they show the twins?

Why did he use the Rebel Fanfare for when the Falcon was tractor-beamed into the Death Star?

 

 

- In sacrificing himself, Ben hoped he would save Luke and Princess Leia.

- What scene? Doesn't he use the Force Theme? The twins would grow up to be able to use the Force.

- The gang in Falcon were to become Rebels... or were already Rebels, depending on your point of view.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He he he, my point exactly.

 

Thank you.

[Quintus 5,399]

19 minutes ago, Mattris said:

The 'conclusion I am assigning to my factual observations' is that in IX, Rey will be revealed to be an Anakin-like creation of the Force and might turn - or at least be tempted - to the Dark Side. If this does not happen in IX, then I will feel John Williams was lied to.

 

 

I'd love this to happen tbh, it'd be a delicious conclusion to a so-so series of newer movies. But if it doesn't, I won't feel like John Williams was lied to. I'll just feel like Mattris on JWFAN was wrong. 

[Mattris 416]

@Stefancos 

My point is that John Williams composed Rey's Theme based on the TFA, as well as what JJ told him about his plans for her. Am I wrong to expect Rey to be related to Palpatine and/or Vader in some way in IX?

Do you agree that Rey's Theme was deliberately composed to include those references... and that he did so for a logical reason, just as Anakin's Theme contained Darth Vader's Theme?

You questioned me about the use of specific themes for individual scenes within the films. There is no correlation.

 

On 07/04/2019 at 4:00 AM, Quintus said:

I'd love this to happen tbh, it'd be a delicious conclusion to a so-so series of newer movies. But if it doesn't, I won't feel like John Williams was lied to. I'll just feel like Mattris on JWFAN was wrong. 

 

If Rey isn't related to Palpatine and/or Vader in some way in IX, why won't you feel that John Williams was lied to?

[Quintus 5,399]

No I'll just think it was a decent theory which ultimately barked up the wrong tree. You don't think that's possible? 

[Mattris 416]

No, I don't. John Williams is too far skilled to have composed a theme for Rey - the mysterious new main character of the trilogy - to include The Emperor and Vader Theme references 'coincidentally'. It follows that he must have included the references deliberately because JJ told him to do so. A Palpatine/Vader link must be in her destiny... and absolutely must be revealed in IX, or else those references within her theme are false, and that's not John Williams style.

[Arpy 4,145]

7 minutes ago, Mattris said:

If Rey isn't related to Palpatine and/or Vader in some way in IX, why won't you feel that John Williams was lied to?

Because I doubt Williams even considered this connection. Is it crazy to think that the same composer would write with similar notes or chords or whatever? 

[Quintus 5,399]

6 minutes ago, Mattris said:

No, I don't. John Williams is too far skilled to have composed a theme for Rey - the mysterious new main character of the trilogy - to include The Emperor and Vader Theme references 'coincidentally'. 

 

Okay 👌

 

Of course, another way of putting that is, "it's literally impossible for me to be wrong."

 

Guys, either Mattris' theory will come to fruition or Williams was lied to. No other possible outcomes exist.

[Arpy 4,145]

#williamsliedtometoo

 

 

[Mattris 416]

As a fan of John Williams (knowing that he composed for Star Wars using specific themes for each main character), JJ told him what he had in store for Rey. John Williams took it from there.

 

That's just it: The notes aren't "similar" to other Star Wars themes. The two Emperor notes (to start the theme) are identical. And then at the end of the theme, anyone with a keen ear should be able to hear Vader's Theme hinted (two notes off by only a half-step)... and then stated exactly, minus one note.

[Holko 9,525]

TWO Identical notes??? My god! How could we have been so blind?

[Mattris 416]

16 minutes ago, Quintus said:

No other possible outcomes exist.

 

In your view, what other outcomes exist? Do you acknowledge the references exist within her theme?

 

10 minutes ago, Holko said:

TWO Identical notes??? My god! How could we have been so blind?

 

Not just any two notes. The two notes that begin her main theme. Of the many dozens of note combinations possible, Williams picked two that had the same rising interval... and then ended the theme with Vader's Theme. Logic - and our understanding of John Williams' composing style - dictates that this is not a coincidence.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

12 minutes ago, Quintus said:

 

Of course, another way of putting that is, "it's literally impossible for me to be wrong."

 

 

That is actually the gist of this now 106 page thread.

[publicist 4,643]

Also, it's a sign of the coming apocalpyse that a stupid, toxic thread like this still is alive and kicking at page 106...

[Holko 9,525]

And Luke actually comes from a midwestern town in the late 1800s, of course, he just time warped and reincarnated into Padmé! It all makes sense now, Williams was surely told this irrefutable backstory in 1976.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

3 minutes ago, publicist said:

Also, it's a sign of the coming apocalpyse that a stupid, toxic thread like this still is alive and kicking at page 106...

 

Really, when the political stuff on JWFan becomes verboten I hope Jason and Ricard also take care of this stuff.

[Mattris 416]

15 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

That is actually the gist of this now 106 page thread.

 

I see you dodged my questions. I'd love to hear your responses.

 

13 minutes ago, publicist said:

Also, it's a sign of the coming apocalpyse that a stupid, toxic thread like this still is alive and kicking at page 106...

 

This thread is still "alive and kicking" because I, and many others have much to say. Why do you feel the need to criticize us? With statements like that, I would say it is you who are "toxic".

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What questions? Do I have to scroll up far?

[Quintus 5,399]

21 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

In your view, what other outcomes exist? Do you acknowledge the references exist within her theme?

 

 

I think it's perfectly possible that similarities exist between musical ideas, sure. Whether or not the references inferred are there by design or are there out of simple coincidence, fuck knows. Some of the stuff being attributed to here though is tenuous to say the least. But if you're happy to doggedly hold onto your theories at all costs (why so vehemently I'll never understand), then hey ho that's up to you. 

 

My own theory though doesn't involve anybody being lied to. I'd say either Rey will be the villainous twist that might spice these movies up a bit (unlikely), or you were just wrong all along. But I get the impression that this perfectly reasonable configuration is beyond your acceptable plane of existence. 

[leeallen01 2,136]

I feel like I'm in a mental institution. People believing that this trilogy's story is planned is hilarious to me. I can't believe that TLJ convinced you that they know what they're doing haha.

 

When you see Ep9, you will realise just how improvised and amateur the filmmakers have been with this trilogy.

 

I always thought there were standards to storytelling. That you had to have narrative consistency and not contradict your own story and characters within your own film. But I guess I was wrong. I guess you can write a story that doesn't make sense, with characters changing their entire personality scene by scene. You can litter your film with plot and character contrivances just to keep your story going, and you can change the lore of your own franchise to suit your narrative choices.

 

I'm sorry folks, but you can 'like' TLJ, but it is not good writing. That is an irrefutable fact.

[Holko 9,525]

Tell us, oh master of scriptwriting, how TLJ changes the lore of the franchise - rememver, the EU is in the garbage amd the new books have lower relevance than the films.