Star Wars Disenchantment

[leeallen01 2,133]

7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I don't recall previous Star Wars films getting too technical about spaceships and cruising in space, so...

 

There are many examples of characters talking about their ships speed or ability to outrun other ones or not.

 

Man I used to enjoy debating films, but not only has the writing in films gotten far worse, but the fans of those films have become so deluded that they refuse to acknowledge blatant flaws and bad or lazy writing. Nowhese else have I seen it so prevalent than with TLJ's fanbase. 

 

TTFN.

[Fargo 297]

Something everyone needs to remember: opinions are not (necessarily) facts. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed!

[Mattris 416]

On 07/04/2019 at 6:27 AM, Quintus said:

Moreover, Mattris' assertions could be construed as being a stark oversimplification of Williams' uncanny understanding of characters and narrative. We like to think, do we not, that there's much more sophistication to Williams' talent than just the simple act of using the same notes in order to evoke a sense or feeling that two things are linked somehow. Come on, he's far more devilishly subtle than that. In fact he's a fuckin' marvel when he flexes those particular compositional muscles, in the way that he does. 

 

If Williams has an "uncanny understanding of characters and narrative" in this case, JJ must have told him about Rey's fate and/or origin.

 

Indeed, "there's much more sophistication to Williams' talent than just the simple act of using the same notes in order to evoke a sense or feeling that two things are linked somehow." As others' noted, Rey's Theme features the same chord structure as The Force Theme. My observations are also relatively surface-level:

 

Rey's Theme incorporates The Emperor's Theme at its beginning: Two particular notes, with the same interval, in sequence. (Obviously three identical notes in sequence would have been too obvious.) The ending notes of her theme are a variation on - and then an incomplete quote of - Darth Vader's Theme, just omitting the second to last note.

 

You say that this could all be "a stark oversimplification" and that John Williams is "far more devilishly subtle than that" and a "marvel when he flexes those particular compositional muscles"... but missed the references. Oh, the irony!

 

On 07/04/2019 at 6:44 AM, Manakin Skywalker said:

@Mattris out of curiosity, what will your feeling be if you're not right; if Palpatine and Vader have no place in Episode IX, and those notes literally did mean nothing? Are you going to be willing to admit that you were just meandering about something you had no idea about, or just complain because the film didn't fit your exact expectations?

 

Irrespective of what occurs in Episode IX, the references to the other themes are present... whether you want to acknowledge them, or not. They will never "mean nothing".

 

If Palpatine and Vader have no place in Episode IX, it's simple: JJ Abrams, after instructing John Williams to composed Rey's Theme accordingly, changed his mind concerning Rey's origins and/or fate.

 

On 07/04/2019 at 9:15 AM, Demodex said:

And I still don't hear any reference to the Dark Side theme or Vader's theme in Rey's theme.

 

I think that was the point. Williams, JJ, and Lucasfilm didn't want everyone to figure Rey out at the very beginning of it all. The thematic references are subtle, so those with a less keen ear would probably not catch them. Don't worry, I'm sure only a relative few picked up on them. Some even to want to deny their existence, chalking it all up to "coincidence". Why John Williams fans are underestimating John Williams is beyond me.

 

It's obvious to me that, in his first collaboration with the great John Williams, JJ Abrams made sure clues for Rey would be in her music... a tease of the reveal of his mystery box of the Trilogy.

[Demodex 557]

2 minutes ago, Mattris said:

If Palpatine and Vader have no place in Episode IX, it's simple: JJ Abrams, after instructing John Williams to composed Rey's Theme accordingly, changed his mind concerning Rey's origins and/or fate.

 

Or Abrams never instructed Williams to do this and the two notes you're hearing are a complete coincidence.  There are a ton of songs out there that use the same chord or note progression.  That doesn't mean it was intentional.

[Fabulin 3,506]

.

 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Those two notes Mattris mentions as the coup de tat, irrefutable link between Rey's Theme and the Emperor's Theme is one of the most common intervals in all of Western music. The minor third is the quickest, simplest ways to tell listeners the key you're in, which often equates to the mood of the piece. As John Williams has entered a sort of "chamber" period in his career, this sort of succintness obviously appeals to him, and informed his approach--by his own words-- for other themes in the film such as Kylo Ren's.

[Mattris 416]

The fact is, the two notes have the same interval as The Emperor's Theme and are the first two in her main theme. Of all the dozens of note combinations, he specifically picked those two.

 

Additionally, two hints of Vader's Theme occur at the very end of her theme. The fact that two relevant (Star Wars) themes book-end the theme confirm that it was all very deliberate. Anyone who claims it could possibly be a "coincidence" isn't giving John Williams the credit he deserves. The only logical conclusion then, is that references were incorporated to the approval - or specific request - of JJ Abrams.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

1 minute ago, Mattris said:

I not talking about "chord progression".

 

Who is? 

[Mattris 416]

I was replying to Demodex but amended the post.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

"I not talking"

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

18 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

I have been observing this from the shadows for quite a while.

 

Look, debating is impossible whenever people project their own uncaring about a matter onto others. Remember, that most folks are only mildly interested in life, and have a sensitivity for detail of exhausted workhorses. Everything is okeyish, meh, whatever, not that bad, not that good, not worth fixing, not worth replicating, not worth remembering.

 

Of course TLJ is bad writing. Personally, I enjoyed it for being a middle finger to TFA, a 1950s-1960s comedy homage and having some good music and hammy performances. But it is not worth a rewatch. Better to revisit Starship Troopers again.

 

Spare your time. (please)

 

 

That's the thing with the world of geekdom, and SW in particular - fans tend to live rather mundane lives, so it's understandable that the films (and related media) represent their desperate escape from the banal repetition of their own lived reality. But when the narratives told end up disappointing them, and not to mention the creators seem to be rather antagonistic towards them for disapproving of the latest product, their hearts are crushed at a level resembling a bad breakup. That fictional universe was their last hope of salvation from a world that's already difficult to cope with as it is. Can you blame them for being at least a bit upset when that fictional santuary seems to deliberately remind them of things that bother them in the real world? Then it feels like there really is no escape!

 

Of course it's easy to just dismiss their outrage and tell them to "get a life", but it may not be as simple as that.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

4 minutes ago, Mattris said:

I was replying to Demodex but amended the post.

 

Ah, okay.

[Fabulin 3,506]

.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

3 minutes ago, dougie said:

 

That's the thing with the world of geekdom, and SW in particular - fans tend to live rather mundane lives, so it's understandable that the films (and related media) represent their desperate escape from reality. But when the narratives told end up disappointing them, and not to mention the creators seem to be rather antagonistic towards them for disapproving of the latest product, their hearts are crushed at a level resembling a bad breakup. That fictional universe was their last hope of salvation from a world that's already difficult to cope with as it is. Can you blame them for being at least a bit upset when that fictional santuary seems to deliberately remind them of things that bother them in the real world? Then it feels like there really is no escape!

 

Of course it's easy to just dismiss their outrage and tell them to "get a life", but it may not be as simple as that.

Do Star Wars fans not understand how much more fulfilling it is to hang out with your pets than to watch dumb sci-fi movies made for babies? Very few mainstream movies made within the past decade or so can compare to watching Mariah chase and murder a moth, or taking Doby for walkies! 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

7 minutes ago, Kasey Kockroach said:

Do Star Wars fans not understand how much more fulfilling it is to hang out with your pets than to watch dumb sci-fi movies made for babies? Very few mainstream movies made within the past decade or so can compare to watching Mariah chase and murder a moth, or taking Doby for walkies! 

 

You have no idea how much X-Files fans complained over the years whenever the show was delivering nothing more than half-baked plots and outlandish twists that became apparent the creators were just winging it! Almost every long-running franchise shares this characteristic where it becomes so drawn out, it's never going to please everyone. It's just more pronounced with SW because it's so mainstream and has led the way for so long.

 

7 minutes ago, Fabulin said:

Either your sarcasm is deep (which I enjoy), or you missed the fact that I am berating those who do not care. I merely meant that it is pointless to discuss. If someone cares about fiction, they should pen their own instead. 

 

Most likely they lack industry contacts or know-how, or even the talent to do so. Generally, most regular people (including the fans) tend to rely on more creative and resourceful people to do this stuff anyway for their escapism fix. I find their emotional responses to their favoured franchises very interesting because it's like a relationship, as weird as that sounds.

 

And hey, it's 5:30am, gimme a break!

[Fabulin 3,506]

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[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 minute ago, Fabulin said:

I always assumed that the ability to see flaws is the clearest display of sufficient talent. But maybe I have never been deep enough into the grey zone of disenchantment.

 

Have a nice sleep.

 

I think being able to identify flaws in an existing work of fiction/media and elaborating on why they harm or impair the finished product is a completely different skillset to being able to create your own fictional work from scratch.

[Mattris 416]

The fact that John Williams incorporated Vader's Theme into Anakin's Theme means that a precedence was established. After reading my previous posts, any of you suggesting that Rey's Theme was composed - specifically referencing Palpatine and Vader - "accidentally" or "coincidentally" underestimate the talents of John Williams and JJ Abrams. Or perhaps you have been led astray by the whole "They had no plan for the trilogy!" nonsense.

 

I will be proven correct. You'll see.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

8 minutes ago, dougie said:

 

You have no idea how much X-Files fans complained over the years whenever the show was delivering nothing more than half-baked plots and outlandish twists that became apparent the creators were just winging it! Almost every long-running franchise shares this characteristic where it becomes so drawn out, it's never going to please everyone. It's just more pronounced with SW because it's so mainstream and has led the way for so long.

 

 

 

Thank goodness Tales from the Crypt was smart enough to end after seven seasons (it got hit and miss at around season 5, but there's still some fun stuff even at the show's last run). 

[Chen G. 3,940]

Just now, Mattris said:

The fact that John Williams incorporated Vader's Theme into Anakin's Theme means that a precedence was established.

 

In a completely and utterly different situation to this.

 

John Williams didn't need Lucas to tell him that Anakin becomes Vader. It was a given from the moment the prequels were concieved.

 

The same is not true of Rey's supposed identity.

[Mattris 416]

The fact that John Williams knew of Anakin's fate makes all the difference? The two relatively obvious thematic references in Rey's Theme indicate that JJ told John Williams of Rey's identity and/or fate. Why is that so hard to believe? Her theme would not have been composed randomly. That's not John Williams' style. References to other Star Wars themes do not happen "coincidentally".

 

The fact that so many prominent members do not yet realize what John Williams managed to do is a bit sad. Once IX is in the books, I hope everyone will give him credit.

[Chen G. 3,940]

23 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Her theme would not have been composed randomly. That's not John Williams' style.

 

It so is.

[Fabulin 3,506]

.

[Demodex 557]

Vader's theme is incorporated into Anakin's?  You mean at the end of the concert piece?  Because that deliberate quote is the only connection I hear between the two. 

 

 

3 hours ago, dougie said:

 

That's the thing with the world of geekdom, and SW in particular - fans tend to live rather mundane lives, so it's understandable that the films (and related media) represent their desperate escape from the banal repetition of their own lived reality. But when the narratives told end up disappointing them, and not to mention the creators seem to be rather antagonistic towards them for disapproving of the latest product, their hearts are crushed at a level resembling a bad breakup. That fictional universe was their last hope of salvation from a world that's already difficult to cope with as it is. Can you blame them for being at least a bit upset when that fictional santuary seems to deliberately remind them of things that bother them in the real world? Then it feels like there really is no escape!

 

Of course it's easy to just dismiss their outrage and tell them to "get a life", but it may not be as simple as that.

 

I'm kind of insulted that you imply people love Star Wars because they have no life. This is totally not true. 

[Arpy 4,145]

Fuck this!

 

@Mattris if you don't have concrete evidence from Williams himself then your 'facts' are as good as the fact that Snoke is actually Mace Windu.

[Quintus 5,399]

45 minutes ago, Demodex said:

I'm kind of insulted that you imply people love Star Wars because they have no life. This is totally not true. 

 

I have no life and I'm not really into Star Wars anymore. I wonder if that's a category too. 

[Falstaft 2,132]

Other leitmotifs which begin by outlining a minor thirds...:

 

Imperial Motif (ANH)

Jawa Motif (ANH)

Death Star Motif (ANH, ROTJ)

Jabba's Theme (ROTJ, ANH-SE)

Qui Gon's Theme (TMP)

Shmi's Theme (TMP, AOTC)

General Grievous (ROTS)

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Awwwwww shit.

 

 

 

 

This melody has the two minor third notes too...what does this mean? Was the Resistance another ploy created by Palpatine in another long-con siege of power? This time  to eliminate Snoke and remove the competition? Will Rey, envoy of Palpatine, betray the Resistance in a stunning reveal of loyalty to her lineage?

 

 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

4 hours ago, dougie said:

 But when the narratives told end up disappointing them, and not to mention the creators seem to be rather antagonistic towards them for disapproving of the latest product, their hearts are crushed at a level resembling a bad breakup. 

 

Eh, if I recall the only antagonistic thing Johnson ever said to the fans was to the particularly small but loud bunch that were verbally abusing Rose’s actress, he just called them a bunch of manbabies. Not exactly professional, but not undeserved either. The YouTube brigade made sure to blow that out of proportion though, you’d think he personally threatened to kill their children or something.

[Demodex 557]

If it wasn't for @Mattris I wouldn't have even known Johnson said anything about the fans.  And if he was criticizing the racists and sexists then good for him.

[Mattris 416]

Starting @ 3:16 of "The Scavenger" is the Reflective Motif (the ending section of her theme), which is a variation of Darth Vader's Theme, more specifically, the Vader Motif. The last 4 notes @ 3:26 (descending D, B, G, E, and finally that same B) are the Vader Motif, with the second to last note omitted (the same D as the first note). In its place, a space, signifying the uncertainty of her fate.

 

In the concert version of Rey's Theme, the main theme starts at 0:33.

 

Additional references of the Vader Motif within his The Force Awakens score:

 

- At 1:32 of "Follow Me", variation of the Vader Motif, with an extra note this time: the second to last note.

- At 1:01 of "The Ways Of The Force", the low brass play the Vader Motif exactly, just with an extra (doubled) first note and extra notes at the end.

- Then again at 1:24 of "The Ways Of The Force", the last note of Kylo's Motif is the first note of the three-note Vader Motif. The two remaining notes (played by French horns) are played at 1:26, after the timpani crescendo.

 

So John Williams intentionally referenced Darth Vader's Theme in Rey's Theme, as well as numerous instances throughout the score. Knowing John Williams composition style, he would not have done so without a reason, which means he was told about Rey's origin and/or fate. It then follows that the opening two notes - the same rising minor third interval from the opening of The Emperor's Theme, a character closely related to Vader - would not be a "coincidence" either.

 

In closing, this evidence within the score means that JJ had a plan for Rey all along, and John Williams was told about it. Anyone who truly thinks this is all a "coincidence" is a fool.

[Demodex 557]

@Mattris I'm not hearing Vader's theme in "The Scavenger" at all.  What is the Vader motif?

[Falstaft 2,132]

Text description of musical structure can be misleading or incomplete. Sometime's it's best to let the notation speak for itself.

 

So here's a rough and ready transcription of two passages being claimed are unambiguous, un-coincidental variations of the "Vader motif" as the above poster labels it. 

 

57 minutes ago, Mattris said:

At 1:01 of "The Ways Of The Force", the low brass play the Vader Motif exactly, just with an extra (doubled) first note and extra notes at the end.

 

(The meter is tricky here, so this is a bit of a rhythmic approximation)

 

Quote

Then again at 1:24, played by the French horns, the last note of Kylo's Motif is the first note of the three-note Vader Motif. The two remaining notes are played at 1:26, after the timpani crescendo. ruly thinks this is all a "coincidence" is a fool.

 

[I'm not sure exactly what material you're referring to in "Follow Me," Mattris. The section that begins at 1:32 doesn't have a strong melodic profile -- kind of a series of step motions in and around D-minor (F-E, A-Bb, E-F), all in different octaves and instrumental choirs.]

 

[Demodex 557]

I've don't think I've ever heard that Vader motif before.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

6 hours ago, Mattris said:

If Palpatine and Vader have no place in Episode IX, it's simple: JJ Abrams, after instructing John Williams to composed Rey's Theme accordingly, changed his mind concerning Rey's origins and/or fate. 

Again, you have no proof that that exchange ever took place, or that JJ ever had that idea. You're just making this stuff up in your head based on a couple notes in a piece of music. Don't you think there's even the slightest chance that you're simply wrong? Or are you really that naïve? (Who am I kidding, we all know the answer to that question)

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

4 hours ago, Fabulin said:

I still think that it might be a good predictor, but after a while I agree that it is not enough. Examples abound, from Victor Shklovsky's novels to Red Letter Media's Space Cop. It remains a bit hard for me to fathom though, how can that be---it's like being on the council, but not being a master. Unless someone is just lazy, what is the problem?

 

It's like being able to play piano but also be utterly hopeless at writing music.

[Demodex 557]

7 minutes ago, dougie said:

 

It's like being able to play piano but also be utterly hopeless at writing music.

 

This is totally me, except I can play piano and guitar but can not write a single thing that's original.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

I'm the exact opposite. I can easily write music, but don't have the ability to play any instruments. I used to play the bass guitar when I was younger, but now I have no interest in that. I'd love to learn how to play the piano since it would make writing music a lot easier for me.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I play piano and write. Often it’s useful but sometimes it can hamper the process, particularly when you get used to playing particular shapes/modes/tonalities over and over again

[Nick Parker 3,040]

7 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

I play piano and write. Often it’s useful but sometimes it can hamper the process, particularly when you get used to playing particular shapes/modes/tonalities over and over again

 

For sure. Muscle memory can be a very dangerous enemy to writing...there was a prominent musician--maybe Sting, I can't remember--who warned about writing "what you can play".

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Don't you need to be able to play what you write?

[Arpy 4,145]

25 minutes ago, dougie said:

Don't you need to be able to play what you write?

Like Gloria Chen trying to play Don Davis' piece for Montages hehe

[publicist 4,643]

5 hours ago, Quintus said:

 

I have no life and I'm not really into Star Wars anymore. I wonder if that's a category too. 

 

Yeah, it's a step up.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

1 hour ago, dougie said:

Don't you need to be able to play what you write?

 

Nah not really, you need to know how it could/should be played, but not necessarily yourself. It’s about hearing the music in your head.

[Score 770]

7 hours ago, Falstaft said:

Other leitmotifs which begin by outlining a minor thirds...:

 

Imperial Motif (ANH)

Jawa Motif (ANH)

Death Star Motif (ANH, ROTJ)

Jabba's Theme (ROTJ, ANH-SE)

Qui Gon's Theme (TMP)

Shmi's Theme (TMP, AOTC)

General Grievous (ROTS)

 

Don't forget the "Closing In" theme from "Catch me if you can"! There must be some hidden connection between Frank Abagnale, the Emperor, and Rey... and Williams is cleverly hinting at that through the minor third interval! It cannot be a coincidence. 

[Mattris 416]

You guys are so funny! Your in-depth analysis totally discredits my observations!

 

The minor third 'Emperor reference' only becomes relevant after you realize that he hid Darth Vader's Theme into the end of Rey's Theme... and other moments in his TFA score. Care to comment specifically on the details of my post?

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

3 minutes ago, Mattris said:

he hid Darth Vader's Theme into the end of Rey's Theme

I don't hear it at all. Nor do I hear the Emperor's theme.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

All these hidden messages in the music. What's he trying to tell us? Is it The Williams Code?

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

2 minutes ago, dougie said:

All these hidden messages in the music. What's he trying to tell us? Is it The Williams Code?

What's that boy? Timmy fell down the well?