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Star Wars Disenchantment


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I'm just uncomfortable with the idea of a giant capitalist corporate empire treating its customers who are just regular people like a stern old schoolmarm for misbehaving, and people are siding with the capitalist corporate empire. It's just weird to me.

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10 minutes ago, dougie said:

I'm just uncomfortable with the idea of a giant capitalist corporate empire treating its customers who are just regular people like a stern old schoolmarm for misbehaving, and people are siding with the capitalist corporate empire. It's just weird to me.

 

You’re reading way too much into a joke comic that has no affiliation with Disney at all. 

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3 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

 

You’re reading way too much into a joke comic that has no affiliation with Disney at all. 

 

I know that, but not all jokes are funny really. There was just something a bit creepy about Mickey's face too, like some disembodied evil spirit pretending to be all moralising or something. The cartoon just feels false to me.

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I feel as if this thread is like an exploration into the depravity of Mattris's mind. Each new thing is seen through the horrific nightmare kaleidoscope of his worldview.

 

Both Kelly Marie Tran and Daisy Ridley left social media because of the harassment @Mattris Ridley copped a fair amount of backlash for a post she made on gun violence and comments that were left on some of her posts criticizing her skin: https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/dec/07/star-wars-daisy-ridley-social-media-mental-health

Kelly Marie Tran left due to the immediate backlash to TLJ and her character: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44379473 

 

So, they just left social media to concentrate on their work, or was it the incessant, soul-crushing comments left on their social media pages Mattris, because it's clear to me which one sounds more likely! 

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13 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I have no idea as to what the story would be.

 

But its often easier to tell what it won't be: that Palpatine theory is a great example. JJ isn't a stupid screenwriter.

 

7 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Look buddy, IX may not be as bad as VIII, but there's no way in hell your Palpatine and Rey theory will pan out. You're literally just setting yourself up to be disappointed again.

 

What issue(s) do you have with my theory? Or why don't you think JJ will incorporate Palpatine into the end of the Saga?

 

10 hours ago, Chen G. said:

There you have it: we now have both Kathleen Kennedy, Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams on record for saying that there is no real overriding plan for these films.

 

After spending billions of dollars on Lucasfilm Ltd., subsequent films, new canon material, new parks, etc., why would the film makers publicly - and repeatedly - say that they had 'no plan for the trilogy'? Why would they want the fans to know they didn't know where they were going - or what the were doing - with the conclusion of the Star Wars Saga?

 

4 hours ago, SteveMc said:

The person behind it meant it as a joke that criticizes the fanbase. 

 

As I explained, that person was incorrect when blame the fans for the film-makers' issues.

 

4 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

Yeah I mean it was clearly tongue-in-cheek but there is a nugget of truth in the portrayal of toxic fandom. 

 

Please define "toxic fandom". 

 

4 hours ago, dougie said:

I'm just uncomfortable with the idea of a giant capitalist corporate empire treating its customers who are just regular people like a stern old schoolmarm for misbehaving, and people are siding with the capitalist corporate empire. It's just weird to me.

 

It doesn't make sense, does it? This aggression will not stand, man!

 

1 hour ago, Arpy said:

I feel as if this thread is like an exploration into the depravity of Mattris's mind. Each new thing is seen through the horrific nightmare kaleidoscope of his worldview.

 

Both Kelly Marie Tran and Daisy Ridley left social media because of the harassment @Mattris Ridley copped a fair amount of backlash for a post she made on gun violence and comments that were left on some of her posts criticizing her skin: https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/dec/07/star-wars-daisy-ridley-social-media-mental-health

Kelly Marie Tran left due to the immediate backlash to TLJ and her character: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44379473 

 

So, they just left social media to concentrate on their work, or was it the incessant, soul-crushing comments left on their social media pages Mattris, because it's clear to me which one sounds more likely! 

 

BBC: "There has been no confirmation from Tran as to why she vanished on Instagram"

Daisy Ridley: Social media is “highly unhealthy for people’s mental health”.

 

I believe both of those statements. I also never said, "they just left social media to concentrate on their work." The fact is, Kelly Marie Tran and Daisy Ridley did not say they 'left social media because of the harassment'.

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10 minutes ago, Mattris said:

What issue(s) do you have with my theory? Or why don't you think JJ will incorporate Palpatine into the end of the Saga?

 

I've said it before, but it sounds too much like a schlok-y science-fiction plot for JJ to be putting it into his movie. Its based on a very obscure line (which, to me, doesn't at all suggest that Palpatine knew how to sustain life - in fact later in the film he tells Anakin they'll have to work together to discover that secret), its convoluted (Palpatine fell down a huge shaft and exploded, and the containing structure would later explode, as well!) and its the kind of retconning I don't like, and neither will Abrams: Oh, so this character who was certainly presumed dead for the last two entries was actually alive all the time? Bollocks.

 

Plus, it requires a lot of explaining and probably flashbacks to happen someway through a movie which already has a ton of things to wrap up, and its a throwback to a film over ten years and two entries removed from the current entry, from a trilogy which the filmmakers were trying to avoid referencing for quite some time now.

 

10 minutes ago, Mattris said:

After spending billions of dollars on Lucasfilm Ltd., subsequent films, new canon material, new parks, etc., why would the film makers publicly - and repeatedly - say that they had 'no plan for the trilogy'? Why would they want the fans to know they didn't know where they were going - or what the were doing - with the conclusion of the Star Wars Saga?

 

Its called by truthful. If there was someone who was in charge of concieving the full course of the trilogy, he'd have to be credited in the screenwriting, anyway. But there isn't one.

 

I at least have an appreciation for the filmmakers for not pulling a George Lucas which his nonesense: "I have all the movies mapped out" or whatever it was he said.

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@Mattris Neither of them specified that as the cause, but it's unquestionably the reason they shut their accounts down, and why wouldn't they, having to deal with all the bullshit of whiny, entitled fans and trolls - the same kinds of people who tweet Rian Johnson stupid questions. 

 

Why would they come out and say they can't deal with all of the harassment, when they can just shut down the accounts?

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6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I've said it before, but it sounds too much like a schlok-y science-fiction plot for JJ to be putting it into his movie. Its based on a very obscure line (which, to me, doesn't at all suggest that Palpatine knew how to sustain life - in fact later in the film he tells Anakin they'll have to work together to discover that secret), its convoluted (Palpatine fell down a huge shaft and exploded, and the containing structure would later explode, as well!) and its the kind of retconning I don't like, and neither will Abrams: Oh, so this character who was certainly presumed dead for the last two entries was actually alive all the time? Bollocks.

 

Plus, it requires a lot of explaining and probably flashbacks to happen someway through a movie which already has a ton of things to wrap up, and its a throwback to a film over ten years and two entries removed from the current entry, from a trilogy which the filmmakers were trying to avoid referencing for quite some time now.

 

First of all, Star Wars is fantasy, not sci-fi. The premise for Palpatine returning is not "obscure"; it originates from one of the most-intriguing scenes ('At The Opera') from the Prequels. Palpatine is a master manipulator, so it follows that him telling Anakin they'd have 'to work together to discover that secret' was a lie. His body was lost in the Death Star, but we're talking about the "unnatural" sorcery of the Dark Side. "This character who was certainly presumed dead for the last two entries was actually alive all the time" should be the big twist... or at least Palpatine's legacy and/or grand plan will come into play. Perhaps the "filmmakers were trying to avoid referencing" the Prequels and Palpatine to up the shock factor. In conclusion, everything in the new canon material points to Palpatine being involved somehow. If IX is Palpatine-less, I just don't see how they can make the trilogy have any (positive) lasting impact on the franchise and fandom.

 

Considering how much has left to be explained, I think flashbacks will be necessary. Otherwise, IX will be filled with far too much exposition dialog.

 

6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Its called by truthful. If there was someone who was in charge of concieving the full course of the trilogy, he'd have to be credited in the screenwriting, anyway. But there isn't one.

 

I at least have an appreciation for the filmmakers for not pulling a George Lucas which his nonesense: "I have all the movies mapped out" or whatever it was he said.

 

I would have expected JJ Abrams to have conceived the full course of the trilogy - at least on a basic level. The Lucasfilm Story Group would have seen that his vision is seen through. They didn't need to say they anything like, 'we have all the movies mapped out'. But very few Star Wars fans would say they 'appreciate them having no plan' for the final trilogy of the Star Wars Saga.

 

The fact is, they are making it overtly clear - or at least claiming - that they didn't know what they were doing. Bob Iger and Kathleen Kennedy will be retiring soon, so their impact on Star Wars will leave a lasting impression on their legacies. JJ Abrams, the writer and director of two of the films, has aspirations of starting a media empire. And they're all just winging it? That doesn't sound like a "truth" I'd want the world to know. Something smells fishy.

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15 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Bob Iger and Kathleen Kennedy will be retiring soon, so their impact on Star Wars will leave a lasting impression on their legacies. JJ Abrams, the writer and director of two of the films, has aspirations of starting a media empire. And they're all just winging it? That doesn't sound like a "truth" I'd want the world to know.

That's interesting, Mattris. I didn't realize on top of being a cynical genius, you were also a time traveler! /s

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28 minutes ago, Mattris said:

they're all just winging it?

 

You're saying it like its a bad thing, but its actually how most trilogies come about. Trilogies which are planned out are the exception, not the rule, and when they are planned out, they're usually written and shot all at once, too, and released annually.

 

On the face of it, making a trilogy one film at a time allows to change course between entries according to fan reaction, it allows more people to contribute creativelly to the franchise (by having different directors and writers). Personally, I prefer it when all three entries are written and shot at once, but Disney chose a more traditional approach, and I can't blame them too much.

 

28 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Palpatine is a master manipulator, so it follows that him telling Anakin they'd have 'to work together to discover that secret' was a lie. His body was lost in the Death Star, but we're talking about the "unnatural" sorcery of the Dark Side. "This character who was certainly presumed dead for the last two entries was actually alive all the time" should be the big twist.

 

Yeah, you can definitely read into it as a manipulation, and while Palpatine revealed to have been alive would be a big twist, it'd also be a cheap one. There's also the issue of Necromancery being unexplored as a Force-capability in previous films (but than again, so was astral projection, and yet...) and Palpatine's return not being set-up by the previous two films. The filmmakers can't rely on people reading tie-in books.

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I'm not buying into this theory at all. The musical reference isn't even close to being real or else it would be more obvious. Palpatine died on the second Death Star. If he was going to show up in Ep 9 the movies would have had something to hint toward it other than 2 musical notes.  

Mattris is setting himself up for disappointment again. 

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Yeah, its never a good idea to be too enamored with one's own percpetion of what a movie should be. I have my own idea of what IX should be: I've stated it numerous times, and while its not a theory that hinges up a specific plot point like Mattris', but rather upon a more general concept, I'm not too fixated upon it. If JJ Abrams has something else up his sleeve, I'll bite, so long as it works.

 

What was that quote or Ebert's? "Its not what a film is about - its how it is about it."

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11 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Yeah, you can definitely read into it as a manipulation, and while Palpatine revealed to have been alive would be a big twist, it'd also be a cheap one. There's also the issue of Necromancery being unexplored as a Force-capability in previous films (but than again, so was astral projection, and yet...) and Palpatine's return not being set-up by the previous two films. The filmmakers can't rely on people reading tie-in books.

 

It would only be "cheap" if weren't written well. Palpatine still pulling the strings in some way would shine the light - or Dark, in this case - on many story elements and character traits in the Sequel Trilogy. Done masterfully, it could be quite satisfying.. and one of the most shocking and fulfilling reveals of the entire Saga.

 

9 hours ago, Demodex said:

I'm not buying into this theory at all. The musical reference isn't even close to being real or else it would be more obvious. Palpatine died on the second Death Star. If he was going to show up in Ep 9 the movies would have had something to hint toward it other than 2 musical notes.  

Mattris is setting himself up for disappointment again. 

 

Wrong. As I documented, the musical references are everywhere. The whole point was to not make them "obvious" because they didn't want people to figure things out. Having said that, The Emperor's Theme was played note-for-note in TLJ when Rey was being tortured by Snoke.

 

Other in-canon Palpatine hints and references have been dropped everywhere. He was thought to have died on the second Death Star, but as a Sith Master of the Dark Side, would have feared "loosing his power", especially after playing such a decades-long game to attain it.

 

Given the lack of story-related information that has been presented explaining why this trilogy should even exist, I am already supremely disappointed, as are millions of fans world-wide. All rests on Episode IX to make this entire trilogy worth the wait and emotional investment. My perception of them can only be improved. If many/most fans feel let down when this is all said and done, it will be utterly disastrous for the Star Wars brand under Disney.

 

11 hours ago, Chen G. said:

You're saying it like its a bad thing, but its actually how most trilogies come about. Trilogies which are planned out are the exception, not the rule, and when they are planned out, they're usually written and shot all at once, too, and released annually.

 

On the face of it, making a trilogy one film at a time allows to change course between entries according to fan reaction, it allows more people to contribute creativelly to the franchise (by having different directors and writers). Personally, I prefer it when all three entries are written and shot at once, but Disney chose a more traditional approach, and I can't blame them too much.

 

You have a point @Chen G.. But recently, JJ made it clear that, with IX, he had 'not changed course between entries according to fan reaction'.

 

The difference between this trilogy and any other is that the stakes could not be higher. A multi-billion dollar company, professional legacies, and the lasting impact of the most popular franchise of all-time rest on the lasting success of these films. Disney/Lucasfilm seem to be exclaiming from the mountain-tops that they have no plan for the final installment of the Star Wars Saga... and it's costing them dearly in all sorts of ways (fan disenchantment, suffering merchandise sales, a SOLO loosing tons of money, etc.).

 

Oscar Isaac confirmed that IX will conclude the series: “It is the end of the entire Skywalker saga. Nine stories. This is the culmination of the entire thing. What J.J. has done, and the entire Lucasfilm team, is incredibly fulfilling. It’s also special for us because you get to learn a lot more things about these characters.”

 

Hopefully in IX, the fans learn why the new characters exist. Because as of now, it looks like they exist just to replace the old characters. If that turns out being the case, it will not be enough to keep people interested and invested, long-term... and people will leave disappointed and might not ever return.

 

With a vast collection of canon material managed by the Lucasfilm Story Group: tie-in novels, novelizations, comics, shows, games, more people have 'contributed creatively to the franchise'. Lucasfilm clearly made it a point to employ many writers. Were they are told to 'do whatever', without a plan?

 

If this is all true, then...

 

- They invented a Mary Sue character - the face of the new Star Warswith no plan.

- They killed Han, Luke, and Snoke with no plan.

- They had Han Solo and Leia's son turn to the Dark Side with no plan.

- They invented a "programmed from birth" Stormtrooper who lost his mind on Jakku and became infatuated with Rey with no plan.

- They included Palpatine and Jakku in every form of the new canon material with no plan.

- So many new characters introduced, questions raised, and expectations subverted with no plan.

- They split the fandom in half, resulting in years of upheaval and concern, with no plan.

- They allowed employees to criticize and demean disappointed/confused fans with no plan.

- They allowed the media to accuse the fans of racism and sexism, as well as run with false narratives and fake news with no plan.

- They seem to assume they can continue this behavior long-term, without apology or remorse... or a plan.

- Millions fans feel depressed and disillusioned because Lucasfilm had no plan for the ending of a film series that they have loved for decades. How sad.

 

I'll just say it bluntly: Lucasfilm are either lying about having 'no plan' and are going to subvert our expectations again... or they are incompetent and will ultimately fail.

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1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Wrong. As I documented, the musical references are everywhere. The whole point was to not make them "obvious" because they didn't want people to figure things out. Having said that, The Emperor's Theme was played note-for-note in TLJ when Rey was being tortured by Snoke.

 

He played the Dark Side theme while someone was using the Dark Side of the Force?  OMG it's a hidden message!!

 

I was going to say I at least respect you for sticking to your guns despite all the people discrediting you. But then you posted that.  

 

Maybe you're right, I don't know. But I'll be very surprised if Palpatine is pulling any strings here. 

Maybe Rey was born of the Force, and maybe Palpatine's contingency plan had something to do with Rey, but I almost guarantee Palpatine is dead. 

 

I think your musical hints are complete shit. I think the novels take place on Jakku for fan service, nothing more. 

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Also, the absence of the Imperial March in the original Star Wars. If he knew the Empire, and Vader in particular, were going to turn into a much more menacing presence, he would've written something more substantial for them than the motif he originally used in Star Wars.

 

Its just not how he works.

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Even when sequels were all but guarenteed, and their plot already known, Williams just doesn't work with sequels in mind.

 

For instance, Lucas always intended for Anakin and Padme to fall in love, but you don't hear Williams weaving some embryonic form of Across the Stars through their shared scenes in The Phantom Menace. That's more of a Howard Shore approach. 

 

Williams doesn't write these as parts of a whole, but rather as individual, but connected, pieces of music.

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4 hours ago, Demodex said:

He played the Dark Side theme while someone was using the Dark Side of the Force?  OMG it's a hidden message!!

 

I was going to say I at least respect you for sticking to your guns despite all the people discrediting you. But then you posted that.  

 

Maybe you're right, I don't know. But I'll be very surprised if Palpatine is pulling any strings here. 

Maybe Rey was born of the Force, and maybe Palpatine's contingency plan had something to do with Rey, but I almost guarantee Palpatine is dead. 

 

I think your musical hints are complete shit. I think the novels take place on Jakku for fan service, nothing more. 

 

Palpatine's or The Emperor's Theme is not the "Dark Side Theme". If fact, Williams wrote no "Dark Side Theme".

 

If they were looking for 'desert planet' fan service, the novels would have taken place on Tatooine. The fact that they presented something "more" means that there should be something more as a pay-off. If not, it was all for nothing.

 

I was going to say I at least respect you for sticking to your guns despite all the people discrediting you. But then you posted that.

Right back at you, @Demodex. I think your musical listening discernment abilities are "are complete shit".

 

4 hours ago, Fargo said:

Not sure if someone linked this article yet or not: http://collider.com/star-wars-9-jj-abrams-turned-down-directing/

 

Basically confirms they had no plan for subsequent films from the start. No Palpatine. No plan for Snoke. Just making it up on the fly (which worked well for George on the OT I suppose).

 

If Lucasfilm had 'no plan', then why does all the canon material - which began release before TFA - feature an abundance of Palpatine and Jakku references?

Of all the planets in the galaxy, why was it revealed that Palpatine personally arranged a Contingency on Jakku?

Of all the planets in the galaxy, why was it revealed that the last stand for the Empire took place on Jakku?

Why does Rey (from Jakku) not remember her parents? Why is she, in particular, so powerful with the Force?

Why was Snoke done away with so unexpectedly, clearing the 'big baddy' slate for IX?

Why did the Force awaken? Why was Snoke surprised that it had awakened?

 

All signs point to Palpatine coming back in some way. If they had him planned from the start, obviously no one is going to mention it since it would spoil the big reveal/twist in IX.

 

Their plan all along was to make it clear that they had 'no plan' - even if it was a lie. At this point, anyone who can't recognize the writing on the wall is in denial.

 

4 hours ago, Score said:

John Williams famously said that he had written Princess Leia's theme as a love theme, because he was expecting she would have a love story with Luke, only to discover in the last movie that they were twins, and the love story was going to involve Leia and Han. Just in case anyone still wanted to look for hidden messages and links in the musical themes, or any kind of long-term planning in these things. 

 

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Also, the absence of the Imperial March in the original Star Wars. If he knew the Empire, and Vader in particular, were going to turn into a much more menacing presence, he would've written something more substantial for them than the motif he originally used in Star Wars.

 

Its just not how he works.

 

Comparing John Williams' situation with these films to the OT is a false equivalence. The Sequel Trilogy is a completely different situation in almost every way. Do you all not understand that?

 

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Even when sequels were all but guarenteed, and their plot already known, Williams just doesn't work with sequels in mind.

 

For instance, Lucas always intended for Anakin and Padme to fall in love, but you don't hear Williams weaving some embryonic form of Across the Stars through their shared scenes in The Phantom Menace. That's more of a Howard Shore approach. 

 

Williams doesn't write these as parts of a whole, but rather as individual, but connected, pieces of music.

 

But he knew Anakin would become Darth Vader and incorporated Darth Vader's Theme into Anakin's Theme. So your argument goes right out the window.

 

2 hours ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

Didn't realize that there were a total seven pages since I last read this thread. Glad I didn't even decide to skim through them. 

 

Ridiculous pandering.

 

Your loss. Why even announce you're skipping them? Who's pandering?

 

1 hour ago, publicist said:

And yet, the filmmakers spawned these monsters. 

 

You will find that it is the filmmakers who are scheming "monsters"... and that people like me are among those who first realized this fact.

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11 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Comparing John Williams' situation with these films to the OT is a false equivalence. The Sequel Trilogy is a completely different situation in almost every way. Do you all not understand that?

 

And why is that?

 

11 minutes ago, Mattris said:

But he knew Anakin would become Darth Vader and incorporated Darth Vader's Theme into Anakin's Theme. So you argument goes right out the window.

 

So he only prefigures that which is already readily appearant. Doesn't really hinder my argument.

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1 hour ago, Mattris said:

The fact that they presented something "more" means that there should be something more as a pay-off. If not, it was all for nothing.

 

A lot of people don't read the novels so a ton of people going into Episode 9 don't even know about Palpatine's contingency plan. Having him show up in Episode 9 are going to have a lot of people scratching their heads since everyone knows he died on the 2nd Death Star.   

 

The Emporer's theme is associated with the Dark Side of the Force. It's used when Anakin confesses about the Tusken Raiders, and he didn't become the Emperor. 

 

When you say Vader's theme was incorporated into Anakin's theme you mean the snippet at the end if the concert arrangement, right?  Or am I missing something?

 

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Of all the planets in the galaxy, why was it revealed that Palpatine personally arranged a Contingency on Jakku?

Of all the planets in the galaxy, why was it revealed that the last stand for the Empire took place on Jakku?

 

The answer is very simple - to tie the novels to the films. Nothing more. Nothing comes of Palpatine's plans on Jakku. Maybe they have something to do with Rey, but Palpatine died a long time before Rey was ever born. 

 

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Why is she, in particular, so powerful with the Force?

 

Episode 9 will answer this, but not in the way you expect. 

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9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

And why is that?

 

The only two instances in his entire career in which Williams knew that 'sequels were guaranteed' is in Star Wars: the Prequel Trilogy and Sequel Trilogy, and Harry Potter. I don't see the point of saying, "Williams just doesn't work with sequels in mind."

 

Do you honestly not know how the Sequel Trilogy is a completely different situation for Williams compared to his experience with the OT? Or are you acting disingenuous and trying to test me?

 

If John Williams' Star Wars themes are 'connected, individual pieces of music', I can just as easily say they are "parts of a whole" since the Star Wars: Main Theme features Luke's Theme, The Rebel Fanfare, Leia's Theme, and The Throne Room ending fanfare. And every Star Wars episode End Credits is a medley of themes from each film.

 

9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

So he only prefigures that which is already readily appearant. Doesn't really hinder my argument.

 

Just as Williams put Darth Vader's Theme into Anakin's Theme, he integrated other themes/motifs into Rey's Theme and the sequel scores. The only explanation for doing so is because he was told where the story was headed. As I previously explained, the evidence is clear by analyzing his music. He did not incorporate variations/hints of the Vader Motif into the score and her theme by accident or because he thought it would be neat.

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8 hours ago, Demodex said:

A lot of people don't read the novels so a ton of people going into Episode 9 don't even know about Palpatine's contingency plan. Having him show up in Episode 9 are going to have a lot of people scratching their heads since everyone knows he died on the 2nd Death Star.   

 

Going in to IX, people don't need to know about the Contingency plan. It could be explained in its entirety in a matter of minutes... in various ways by various characters: Hux, Kylo, or preferably, by Palpatine. If he did somehow survive and returned in physical - or at least present form, that would be explained as well. It wouldn't be difficult. How well a Palpatine reveal is integrating into the Rey/Kylo story would be integral to the acceptance of the film and trilogy.

 

8 hours ago, Demodex said:

The Emporer's theme is associated with the Dark Side of the Force. It's used when Anakin confesses about the Tusken Raiders, and he didn't become the Emperor. 

 

Ah, but Palpatine was featured in Episode II, tempted Anakin to the Dark Side, and Williams knew where the story was going.

 

8 hours ago, Demodex said:

When you say Vader's theme was incorporated into Anakin's theme you mean the snippet at the end if the concert arrangement, right?

 

Yes, but it also appears during the film, the most obvious example being "Hail to the Winner, Anakin Skywalker" starting at 0:40.

 

8 hours ago, Demodex said:

The answer is very simple - to tie the novels to the films. Nothing more. Nothing comes of Palpatine's plans on Jakku. Maybe they have something to do with Rey, but Palpatine died a long time before Rey was ever born. 

 

This story is not complete. We do not know if "nothing comes of Palpatine's plans on Jakku". If it turns out to not be related to Rey, then Lucasfilm were trolling the readers of the canon material. The fact that Palpatine "died" a long time before Rey was ever born is irrelevant. The purpose of the Contingency: Instructions to the Empire in the event of Palpatine's death... or at worst, the defeat of the Empire.

 

8 hours ago, Demodex said:

Episode 9 will answer this, but not in the way you expect. 

 

Regarding Rey's immense Force strength, yes, most of the audience will be surprised. But if they manage to surprise me, I'll be shocked.

 

8 hours ago, Falstaft said:

It's one thing to draw connections between leitmotifs. Part of the joy of listening to these scores is finding rich, personally meaningful ways in which the musical materials resonate with each other. And it's totally fair to let those hearings affect your interpretation of the larger text/narrative. Maybe you truly do hear the Emperor's Theme in Rey's leitmotif, and maybe Williams did cook it in there as a little easter egg (though everything we know about him and his creative process indicates this is almost certainly not the case). At the end of the day, drawing these connections is fine; it's an interpretive affordance intrinsic to the leitmotif technique, and one Williams, fully aware of how musical mythopoeitics works, very much exploits. It's especially true of Rey's Theme, which is unusually multivalent, ambiguous,  "open" to interpretation on a melodic and affective basis, more so than the average Star Wars theme.

 

It's another thing entirely to arrogantly assert that you and you alone possess special insight into the composer's intentions, especially when your reading of Williams's intentions are so obviously colored by a) a laughably prejudiced, confirmation-bias driven expectation of a certain "right" musical narrative; and b) a deeply flawed technical analysis cloaked in misleadingly authoritative language. No amount of bold text , no categorical dismissal of the reservations some of JWfan's most thoughtful members is going to convince anyone anymore. Anyone, perhaps, besides yourself.

 

I'm not saying that I "hear the Emperor's Theme in Rey's leitmotif". I compared the two themes' opening measures, noting similarities that were factually present. Why do you say that it is unlikely that Williams 'cooked an easter egg' into her theme? Are you saying that he doesn't integrate references in his music? That's simply not true. It's already been established that Rey's Theme shares a chordal relationship with the Force theme - that was intentional on Williams' part. "At the end of the day", I will continue "drawing these connections".

 

I never asserted that I "alone possess special insight into the composer's intentions". Based on numerous factual similarities in the themes/motifs, I highly suspect he was told of Rey's origin so that he could compose her theme accordingly. How was my 'technical analysis deeply flawed' or misleading?

 

The fact is, 'some of JWfan's most thoughtful members are categorically dismissing my connections between leitmotifs', informed opinions, and substantial theories regarding the direction of the Saga... without any specific alternative explanations, only that Lucasfilm and Williams had 'no plan' for anything. Even when presenting logical reasoning and facts, I continue to be barraged by naysayers who have little - or nothing - of substance to offer.

 

It's quite possible that some here may never be convinced that Williams had foreknowledge - even if Rey turns out to be a born of the Force, turns to the Dark Side, or was made/manipulated by Palpatine or something of his creation.

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5 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Now integrating that reveal into the Rey/Kylo story would be integral to the acceptance of the film and trilogy.

 

Integral for you, not me. I don't need this reveal at all to accept the film and trilogy. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Yes, but it also appears during the film, the most obvious example being "Hail to the Winner, Anakin Skywalker" starting at 0:40.

 

If I go and look for this and it's not there then I call BS on your assurance that it's in Rey's theme. 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Mattris said:

We do not know if "nothing comes of Palpatine's plans on Jakku".

 

Doesn't the whole structure on the planet get destroyed?

 

 

9 minutes ago, Mattris said:

If it turns out to not be related to Rey, then Lucasfilm were trolling the readers of the canon material.

 

You're the only person who thinks that.   The rest of us feel that it was just fan service to explain why there's a destroyed Super Star Destroyer and AT-AT on Jakku. 

 

 

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So this is like a Mattris vs. Demodex war?

 

 

Man! I don't even recognize this as a Star Wars discussion anymore.

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@Ii2 Nah, it's sort of the 'Mattris is probably wrong about everything' topic. Wanna join?

 

5 hours ago, Demodex said:

Integral for you, not me. I don't need this reveal at all to accept the film and trilogy.

 

I meant that, if they chose to use Palpatine in IX, how he is integrated would be integral to the acceptance of the film and trilogy. His methods and motivations would need to be made clear and focused, especially as they relate to the other main characters.

 

5 hours ago, Demodex said:

If I go and look for this and it's not there then I call BS on your assurance that it's in Rey's theme.

 

It's at the end of the cue. You can't miss it.

 

5 hours ago, Demodex said:

Doesn't the whole structure on the planet get destroyed?

 

Not to my knowledge. Where did you read that?

 

5 hours ago, Demodex said:

You're the only person who thinks that.   The rest of us feel that it was just fan service to explain why there's a destroyed Super Star Destroyer and AT-AT on Jakku. 

 

Are you aware that many important events occurred on Jakku and within Palpatine's Jakku Observatory. It was not "fan service" to have written books, comics, and games only to explain why a Star Destroyer and AT-AT were destroyed.

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23 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

You’re reading way too much into a joke comic that has no affiliation with Disney at all. 

 

No he's not. That's a legit attitude many people seem to have. The "Disney's just making good movies and none of you are allowed to dislike them" attitude. Yeah, yeah, I know, I'm entitled to my opinion. God forbid I voice it though, then it's just fanboy bitching.

 

18 hours ago, Mattris said:

What issue(s) do you have with my theory? Or why don't you think JJ will incorporate Palpatine into the end of the Saga?

 

I never said JJ wouldn't incorporate Palpatine. I said Palpatine and Rey won't be connected. And they won't be. My reason? It would be really stupid.

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15 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

 

No he's not. That's a legit attitude many people seem to have. The "Disney's just making good movies and none of you are allowed to dislike them" attitude. Yeah, yeah, I know, I'm entitled to my opinion. God forbid I voice it though, then it's just fanboy bitching.

 

Fair enough. I wouldn't be surprised if Kylo Ren was written with shades of fan toxicity in mind, but I took the comic at face value as being, well, a comic. There's so much gatekeeping on both the love/hate of Star Wars that it's easy to interpret any opinion as being definitively on one side or the other. You have to admit that most people on this forum don't fit into either of those extremes, despite what the loudest voices on each side would have you think.

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10 minutes ago, Mattris said:

What is "fan toxicity"?

 

The unnecessary hostility from a fan(dom) towards those who disagree with them (i.e. "gatekeeping"), who also claim a perverted sense of entitlement over how a series' story should enfold.

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17 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

 

Fair enough. I wouldn't be surprised if Kylo Ren was written with shades of fan toxicity in mind, but I took the comic at face value as being, well, a comic. There's so much gatekeeping on both the love/hate of Star Wars that it's easy to interpret any opinion as being definitively on one side or the other. You have to admit that most people on this forum don't fit into either of those extremes, despite what the loudest voices on each side would have you think.

 

Oh absolutely. I love that about this forum! We're all skeptical and sarcastic.

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41 minutes ago, John said:

The unnecessary hostility from a fan(dom) towards those who disagree with them (i.e. "gatekeeping"), who also claim a perverted sense of entitlement over how a series' story should enfold.

 

Could you please define "hostility" and "perverted"?

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