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Star Wars Disenchantment


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Although you don't need more, Chen, aparently many others do. ;)

 

19 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Its hardly that.

 

A very nice ending, ultimately, and it did close the book on Star Wars well enough. Its just a shame that what should have been a great operatic conclusion to the series, had been largely reduced to Jabba's palace and Ewok shenanigans; and now of course had its value all but nullified by the sequel trilogy.

 

What are you talking about? RotJ has a great final battle!

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Perfect length I reckon! Thought JJ would be aiming for something shorter, in line with the OT, but I'm cool with a longer runtime. There's lots to wrap up and I'd rather they didn't rush it, and it allows for extended action and battle scenes which will please the fanboys. 

 

Plus it means more music from Johnny, seeing as he scores the whole film nowadays. Not hard to see why he's still writing after seeing the film 7 months ago. 

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15 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Its really not.

 

The Force Awakens, The Last Jedi, even Revenge of the Sith - are all better.

1. ESB

2. TFA

3. ROTJ

:lock2:

 

I just never liked the prequels.  The cinematography itself never impressed me.  Storywise, they're fine, although Lucas's writing skills went down, but the cinema and acting always failed to impress me.  Lucas was best in the OT movies.  TFA was great because it was an amazing way to start the new line of SW films.

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18 hours ago, Mr. Manfrenjensenden said:


 

It’s been stated in various interviews and articles that Kurtz was very involved in the productions and that his parting was due to disagreements over the direction of the storyline for Jedi. 

 

Nope. That's a legend that comes from the interviews Kurtz gave in the late 90s/00s. 

The truth is that Kurtz was removed from his post for his inability to keep the budget and schedule under control. He resigned months before Empire came out (and before they even started talking about the third episode of the saga).

 

9 hours ago, Arpy said:

Kurtz and Kershner were in open conflict with Lucas throughout Empire Strikes Back, Kurtz even remarking that Lucas needed people to challenge his decisions. From many of the resources out there with Kurtz it seems like his producing credit extended beyond just that and he did have a hand in shaping the story. 

From what I recall a lot of problems arose in production because Lucas didn't want to spend too much time doing anything, didn't want to go over budget, didn't want to fuss over shots and scenes 

 

What sources are they? Except from the interviews Kurtz gave more than a decade after the film, there is nothing to support the idea that Kurtz had a hand in the shaping of the story of SW or Empire. Lucas did have help shaping the story of SW (his flimmaker friends, but Kurtz was not part of them) and Empire (although much less than what people think: Brackett's influence is very questionable since her script was rejected, and Kasdan stepped in once the story was set in stone).

 

THe problems arose because the film went massively over schedule and over budget, and it was Kurtz's job to avoid that from happening. It's not a matter of Lucas not wanting to spent time or money (his intention was not to get involved in the shooting, and he gave Kurtz and Kershnner a comfortable schedule and budged), it's a matter of being able to finish the film at all!

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15 minutes ago, oierem said:

Lucas did have help shaping the story of SW (his flimmaker friends, but Kurtz was not part of them) and Empire (although much less than what people think: Brackett's influence is very questionable since her script was rejected, and Kasdan stepped in once the story was set in stone).

 

I’ve had a look at the Brackett draft: a lot of the final film has its roots there, so to say it was “rejected” is kinda of an overstatement. If you know Brackett’s work, you can readily recognize her influence on the feisty banter between Han and Leia.

 

While I don’t like the narrative of putting Star Wars’ success pinned on some producer like Kurtz, there is a truth to the claim that the success of The Empire Strikes Back is indebted mostly to people other than Lucas: he didn’t direct and wasn’t the principal writer. His story, while interesting, could have been made incredibly hokey in lesser hands.

 

In that sense, the first trilogy is much less Lucas’ than the prequels: he only directed one of the entries, and was the principal writer on two.

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2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

I’ve had a look at the Brackett draft: a lot of the final film has its roots there, so to say it was “rejected” is kinda of an overstatement. If you know Brackett’s work, you can readily recognize her influence on the feisty banter between Han and Leia.

 

 

 

 

I haven't read the full draft, but it was literally rejected, meaning that they didn't use it as a basis for the next few drafts (Kasdan never actually read it, and he did end up writing the dialogue!).

Brackett's draft is similar to the film because it was based on the story treatment that established the structure of the story, so obviously, it's more or less similar. But nothing of the dialogue survived, as far as I know.

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The dialogue itself didn’t, but the sentiment and style clearly did. As I understand it, Brackett’s draft was reworked by Lucas in two or three further drafts, and then Kasdan came in.

 

I’m sure that if Lucas thought his contributions were substantive enough, he’s had taken credit as a co-writer.

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Are you a Brackett fan, Chen? Her sci-fi stuff is cool, but my favorite achievement of herd is the screenplay to The Long Goodbye. Damn, it's a juicy script.

@oierem You're being very bad, weren't you taught to cite sources in writing?

 

 

Screenshot_20191013-082751_Chrome.jpg

 

20191013_083230.jpg

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16 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

The dialogue itself didn’t, but the sentiment and style clearly did. As I understand it, Brackett’s draft was reworked by Lucas in two or three further drafts, and then Kasdan came in.

 

I’m sure that if Lucas thought his contributions were substantive enough, he’s had taken credit as a co-writer.

 

As I understand it, Lucas didn't work on Brackett's draft, but did his draft (second draft) starting from scratch from his story treatment (and discarding Brackett's). 

I'm sure the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Most probably, "something" (a line here and there, some of her "sentiment and style"...) was transferred to Lucas' draft. BUT we know for sure that was Lucas did wasn't just a rework on her draft.

Anyway, we will probably never be sure about the extent of the influence of the first draft on the second.

 

About the credits, Lucas has said that he gave the credit to Brackett out of respect for her. But Lucas clearly deserved a credit as a co-writer, as he did write his own draft, which was then handed to Kasdan to rework the dialogue.

 

 

 

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I know he kept her name out of respect, but that shouldn’t have stopped him from taking credit as a third co-writer, if he felt it was called for.

 

Evidently, he didn’t.

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2 hours ago, Thekthithm said:

1. AOTC

2. TPM

3. ROTS

4. SW

5. ROTJ

6. ESB

7. TLJ

8. TFA

This must a list of the worst and not the best SW films.

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7 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Its not necessarily that: its as much to do with "well, the fans want more Star Wars. So lets give them more!"

 

But its the filmmakers job to give the fans what they need, rather than what they want. Just because you can make more movies in a series, doesn't mean you should.

I'm perfectly fine with getting more new Star Wars content.

It's a world that lends itself to infinitely more stories.

Some might be good, some less so, but I see no reason why the James Bond approach would be invalid here.

 

Also, I think Rian Johnson DID try to give the fans what they needed.

Whether he succeeded is a different story.

But he sure didn't much care about giving them what they wanted.

And I respect that.

 

I have less respect for what I've seen of the JJ approach, which does seem to focus much more on what the fans want.

 

On the side, I think where Disney might want more movies for the sake of more money, I get the impression that the filmmakers are fans themselves and very simply want their chance to make a STAR WARS movie of their own.

Pretty sure that's what happened with Kevin Feige getting a Star Wars movie.

I imagine him going to KK and mentioning that he'd like to do one of those too.

Surely, as much as you might like it, doing superheroes over and over must get tiring after a while and you'll crave something different.

Then when the same parent company happens to have another IP that you've always been excited about around, you'd be crazy NOT to want to try that too.

 

Just trying to see the movie makers as genuine human beings too.

Just like you and me.

After all, were you a filmmaker who got into it because of Star Wars, would you not relish the chance?

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I agree that the sequel trilogy undid the happy ending of RotJ.

Literally the next movie in the series shows that the bad guys were NOT defeated and, oh, all the characters we knew and loved ended up alone and very unhappy.

That is something I do not like about TFA at all.

 

And it results from the apparent desire to make it another soft reboot.

To give new fans what the old ones got with ANH and somehow keep the old fans from getting too unhappy either.

I honestly don't get why certain fans got so worked up about TLJ and not about TFA.

 

And I also agree... TLJ could've been better still.

 

The way I see it, TFA was disappointing because it tried to cater to old fans while making brand new ones too.

And TLJ suffered because it was trying to turn the story in a fresh new direction while still keeping the fans happy.

Neither truly succeeded on all parts and the attempt to balance conflicting goals keeps the movies from being too far one way or another.

 

And so they become a bit average.

Not bad at all, certainly enjoyable and absolutely far from perfect.

 

And if I'm being very honest, that's nothing new for this series.

And that is fine.

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3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I do think Rian Johnson tried giving the fans what they need. The issue is that he chickened out, and as a result his film comes across as provocative for provocation's sake. Had the climax been about Rey coming to terms with the notion that the Jedi should indeed end, it would have been much more powerful and actually meaningful. But it didn't.

 

That is a very good summary of VIII.  I still have a problem with the film's other message: namely, that to be a good leader, one needs to learn to blindly obey orders even when they seem bad (made worse by the fact that the Laura Dern could have just told Poe her plans, as it would have taken all of 10 seconds).  Hitler would have approved of this message. 

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Not only did Poe force his way into command, the opening of the film makes a point of showing how he dives into situations, ignoring the consequences which lead to a great loss for the Resistance.

 

I don't know, the whole Poe/Holdo thing was sketchy to me anyway.

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Well, her plan was clearly stupid on top of that.  the small victory they got was due to the deus ex machina Luke (and they still got their asses kicked).  RJ is such a smarmy little jackass.  

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7 hours ago, Modest Expectations said:

I would like Star Wars to just end.

 

After Episode IX, when Williams is done with Star Wars, I will be done with it as well.

The same way the MCU is over for me. I am not even opening any thread, article, video, or anything else concerning the next products of that type.

 

Of course exceptional quality of innovation, story, and music, might bring me back at some point. Who wouldn't want to watch another Empire? But even then I  have nothing against it reaching me only years after its release.

 

I feel this way too. My interest ends after Rise of Skywalker. And I agree too, I will probably never watch a MCU film again. I am done with that universe.

 

There are diminishing returns with many franchises. How long can you follow them? Same with TV shows. Seriously how long? People should get out when they are ahead rather than die an painful ignoble protracted death.

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10 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

I feel this way too. My interest ends after Rise of Skywalker. And I agree too, I will probably never watch a MCU film again. I am done with that universe.

 

There are diminishing returns with many franchises. How long can you follow them? Same with TV shows. Seriously how long? People should get out when they are ahead rather than die an painful ignoble protracted death.

Exactly. So many people are averse to any sort of finality or understanding the power of a story which has an ending. 

Disney got their hands on Star Wars and had a field day trying to exploit every facet of that property. I'm glad we have new films and new scores to experience, but when do we say enough is enough? When it's too late? When every drop of creative juice has been desperately wrung from the franchise until it's just an empty husk?

 

When I was a kid and all these franchises came to a close, I was sad that it was over, but I had more fun imagining my own stories, remembering what came before and then taking that into other creative aspects of my life. Nowadays, no one has to worry about their favourite series ending, they'll never know what it means to have an ending, and when the stories reach a natural conclusion, they can expect a reboot, a prequel, more sequels...

 

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A lot of the time, that sadness over the series ending was conducive to what the filmmakers were trying to do dramatically, in terms of providing a bittersweet ending. Endgame, for instance, also went for that kind of ending, but because it’s not really the end, it’s greatly diminished as a result.

 

The same thing happened in retrospect to Return of the Jedi, and may yet happen to Rise of Skywalker. We shall see.

 

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Do I have a choice to not watch when Williams is scoring them, or actors I like might appear in them? When characters and storylines I've been invested in for years are being appropriated? 

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8 hours ago, Arpy said:

Do I have a choice to not watch when Williams is scoring them, or actors I like might appear in them? When characters and storylines I've been invested in for years are being appropriated? 

 

4 hours ago, mrbellamy said:

Yes, you do.

 

He lacks decision-making skills.

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10 hours ago, Arpy said:

Do I have a choice to not watch when Williams is scoring them, or actors I like might appear in them? When characters and storylines I've been invested in for years are being appropriated? 

Sarcasm? :mrgreen:

 

6 hours ago, mrbellamy said:

Yes, you do.

Thank you!

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It's not even about watching or not watching. I'm one of the bigger Harry Potter fans here and I always dreaded more stuff because I knew I'd HAVE to check it out and if it sucked I didn't want it to spoil the series. I've since read Cursed Child and seen the two Fantastic Beasts movies and happily discovered that I just never think about them. I don't even have to pretend they don't exist, they just don't occur to me like the original series continues to do. Even so I'd still watch the play and probably would go see a third, fourth, and fifth Beasts movie. Or not.

 

Turns out it's easy to ignore this stuff. By the way how many people know what happens in even one of L Frank Baum's thirteen Wizard of Oz sequels?

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4 hours ago, mstrox said:

The inability for people to just say something isn’t for them and do/watch/talk about something else is baffling to me!

Well, for some contexts it makes perfect sense to not have a right to complain, but for something like SW VIII, think of the marketing and such.  Disney advertised the movie as something in continuation with the SW saga, with somewhat high standards for story-telling.  It not only failed to deliver, the movie deliberately was intended to screw with the story-telling of the SW universe.  So, it was a bait and switch, which I would argue is morally wrong.  If Disney offered me my movie back with an apology, perhaps I would no longer have a right to complain (and they have not), but instead they (at least RJ) criticize those who dare offer critical comments.

 

Also, isn't your critical observation the same.  If these sorts of criticisms are not for you, then shouldn't I be baffled why you don't do something else instead of spending your time criticizing them? .  

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The sequel movies are flawed. For certain.

I sincerely doubt any reasonable person would argue that.

 

In which ways they're flawed differs from person to person.

Just like it differs from movie to movie.

And just like the prequels and the originals all had their flaws too.

 

Certainly the reason for the sequels existing at all is more financially motivated than artistic.

And of course marketing is generally manipulative and dishonest too.

I certainly have zero doubt about any of that.

 

That being said, I believe that within the constraints set by the Disney executives, the movie makers have been trying to do their best.

And given the profits made and number of people talking about them, there must be many people out there (myself included) who get enjoyment out of them.

So claiming these movies have no right to exist, for me, crosses the line where I believe it is not a reasonable opinion to have.

 

Sure, you're still allowed to have that opinion.

I'm certainly not able to force you to change your mind anyway.

I will always believe it is unreasonable.

 

What that says about you and about me is not for me to decide.

It says something.

And who knows... maybe what it says is that I misunderstood something in what is going on here.

 

I like to think so.

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2 hours ago, Tom said:

Well, for some contexts it makes perfect sense to not have a right to complain, but for something like SW VIII, think of the marketing and such.  Disney advertised the movie as something in continuation with the SW saga, with somewhat high standards for story-telling.  It not only failed to deliver, the movie deliberately was intended to screw with the story-telling of the SW universe.  So, it was a bait and switch, which I would argue is morally wrong.  If Disney offered me my movie back with an apology, perhaps I would no longer have a right to complain (and they have not), but instead they (at least RJ) criticize those who dare offer critical comments.

 

This is in the realm of opinion and I think you’re both overstating exactly what Disney was advertising and how much Rian Johnson futzed around with Star Wars’ mechanics, psychology etc compared to the previous movies.

 

The only thing Disney promised anybody was a movie called Star Wars: The Last Jedi in December 2017 (incidentally, the only time Warner Bros ever apologized to me as a Harry Potter fan was when they decided Half-Blood Prince wasn’t coming out in 2008 after all). Lorne Michaels was once told in a heated exchange with an NBC executive about Saturday Night Live that “We ask in your contract that it be 90 minutes and with this many commercial breaks, but nowhere did we require it to be good.” This is show business in a nutshell.

 

Meanwhile the relationship between Rian Johnson and those especially traumatized by his filmmaking doesn’t seem any different to me than what went down with George Lucas in May 1999....in the end neither are accountable to any standard of artistic excellence but their own and their worst sin when all is said and done was presenting a lame moviegoing experience. 

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5 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with disliking a Star Wars movie - I disliked three of them!  People obsessively complaining about and expecting an apology for (?!?) a movie they don’t like that came out two years later is really bonkers.
 

 

It's perfectly okay! I don't particularly like Revenge Of the Sith, Attack Of The Clones, or the Phantom Menace.   It just shows that you have a real opinion and you don't blindly love all just to be loyal to the franchise.

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