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Star Wars Disenchantment


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@mrbellamy see: M. Night Shyamalan's 'The Last Airbender' (2010) for my disdain. It can't be erased, it can't be destroyed. It's a fixed point in time and space. It can be ignored, but not banished from memory completely. 


I was being sarcastic earlier ;)

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23 hours ago, Pieter_Boelen said:

We very nearly crashed in the middle of a very important commercial waterway.

Why? Because my fathier took his own initiative, despite having zero clue about potential consequences.




The morale of the story has to be not to bring fathiers on your boat!

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7 hours ago, Ii2 said:

This is a trailer leak isn't it.


I do not leak. I learn... and theorize.


I thought the full trailer might have been released yesterday... but it will likely premiere next Monday. But yes, I think that line (by Emperor Palpatine from Return of the Jedi) will be how it ends. A predict similar line will appear in The Rise of Skywalker... and I think I know who he'll be welcoming. ;)


Regardless, I certainly managed to welcome everyone back to this thread.


trending GIF

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On 10/13/2019 at 3:57 PM, Chen G. said:

I do think Rian Johnson tried giving the fans what they need. The issue is that he chickened out, and as a result his film comes across as provocative for provocation's sake. Had the climax been about Rey coming to terms with the notion that the Jedi should indeed end, it would have been much more powerful and actually meaningful. But it didn't.


The Last Jedi was provocative as a very deliberate (and teasing) set-up for The Rise of Skywalker - not just "for provocation's sake". The film's climax couldn't have been that "the Jedi should indeed end" because that wasn't the message the film ended with. Yoda told Luke that the Jedi need not adhere to "a pile of old books". And Luke told Ben, "I will not be the last Jedi." But Rey will continue to 'come to terms' with other aspects of her life, which will indeed be powerful and actually meaningful... in due time.


On 10/13/2019 at 3:57 PM, Chen G. said:

But a film series functions, in some ways, like a single film does. It has a beginning, a middle - and an end. For the story of Star Wars, that end is Return of the Jedi. Its not the end because everybody dies or anything, its the end because its the resolution of the story we've been following from the previous films.


When you make another movie set after Return of the Jedi (instead of a harmless spinoff like Rogue One or that stupid cartoon George Lucas produced) you kind of undermine what that film was trying to achieve in terms of being the end of the series.


After 'The Opera Scene' in Revenge of the Sith, the end of the story cannot be Return of the Jedi. A long-term-planning Sith Lord as powerful as Palpatine, who spoke of creating life, being afraid to loose power, and cheating death would not have invited the Rebels and a Jedi to kill him... and not a have a Contingency plan to eventually return. (And, as per the canon materiel, he did.)


George Lucas said himself that if a Sequel Trilogy was made, Palpatine would return. Nothing will be undermined, as it makes perfect sense.


On 10/13/2019 at 7:30 PM, Tom said:

That is a very good summary of VIII.  I still have a problem with the film's other message: namely, that to be a good leader, one needs to learn to blindly obey orders even when they seem bad (made worse by the fact that the Laura Dern could have just told Poe her plans, as it would have taken all of 10 seconds).  Hitler would have approved of this message. 


To destroy a single Dreadnaught Star Destroyer, Poe put the Resistance fleet at risk, and lost the entire bomber squadron. He disobeyed a direct order from General Leia and was demoted. After what had just transpired - and given the circumstances, Vice Admiral Holdo had no reason to trust Poe. "Loose lips sink ships." And that exactly what happens, as DeeJay overhears Rose and Finn talk with Poe about the evacuating transports... and informs the First Order.


The lesson was: To be a respected leader, you must pick your battles wisely and exhibit selfless qualities. By the end of the film, Poe had earned back Leia's respect. "Don't look at me. Follow him."


17 hours ago, Pieter_Boelen said:

The sequel movies are flawed. For certain.

I sincerely doubt any reasonable person would argue that.


In which ways they're flawed differs from person to person.

Just like it differs from movie to movie.

And just like the prequels and the originals all had their flaws too.


Certainly the reason for the sequels existing at all is more financially motivated than artistic.

And of course marketing is generally manipulative and dishonest too.

I certainly have zero doubt about any of that.


That being said, I believe that within the constraints set by the Disney executives, the movie makers have been trying to do their best.

And given the profits made and number of people talking about them, there must be many people out there (myself included) who get enjoyment out of them.

So claiming these movies have no right to exist, for me, crosses the line where I believe it is not a reasonable opinion to have.


Sure, you're still allowed to have that opinion.

I'm certainly not able to force you to change your mind anyway.

I will always believe it is unreasonable.


What that says about you and about me is not for me to decide.

It says something.

And who knows... maybe what it says is that I misunderstood something in what is going on here.


I like to think so.


I think nearly everyone has misunderstood the Sequel Trilogy. Those who believe this trilogy was made for maximum profit have missed the plot... literally.


On 10/13/2019 at 4:21 PM, Pieter_Boelen said:

I agree that the sequel trilogy undid the happy ending of RotJ.

Literally the next movie in the series shows that the bad guys were NOT defeated and, oh, all the characters we knew and loved ended up alone and very unhappy.

That is something I do not like about TFA at all.


And it results from the apparent desire to make it another soft reboot.

To give new fans what the old ones got with ANH and somehow keep the old fans from getting too unhappy either.

I honestly don't get why certain fans got so worked up about TLJ and not about TFA.


And I also agree... TLJ could've been better still.


The way I see it, TFA was disappointing because it tried to cater to old fans while making brand new ones too.

And TLJ suffered because it was trying to turn the story in a fresh new direction while still keeping the fans happy.

Neither truly succeeded on all parts and the attempt to balance conflicting goals keeps the movies from being too far one way or another.


And so they become a bit average.

Not bad at all, certainly enjoyable and absolutely far from perfect.


And if I'm being very honest, that's nothing new for this series.

And that is fine.


Along with so many others, I think you will find that you have misinterpreted the Sequel Trilogy. I'm confident that something very different is coming that will give new meaning to the Trilogy... and Saga as a whole story.

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50 minutes ago, Mattris said:

But Rey will continue to 'come to terms' with other aspects of her life, which will indeed be powerful and actually meaningful... in due time.


Are you saying she's gay?


18 minutes ago, Arpy said:

That's what I was referring to...


The plot thickens...

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2 hours ago, Mattris said:

The film's climax couldn't have been that "the Jedi should indeed end" because that wasn't the message the film ended with.[...] And Luke told Ben, "I will not be the last Jedi."


It couldn't. But it should have.



George Lucas said himself that if a Sequel Trilogy was made, Palpatine would return.


Did he?!

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11 hours ago, mrbellamy said:


Meanwhile the relationship between Rian Johnson and those especially traumatized by his filmmaking doesn’t seem any different to me than what went down with George Lucas in May 1999....in the end neither are accountable to any standard of artistic excellence but their own and their worst sin when all is said and done was presenting a lame moviegoing experience. 


I feel really bad for anyone who considers himself ‘traumatized’ by any Star Wars film, my god. 

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14 hours ago, Mattris said:

George Lucas said himself that if a Sequel Trilogy was made, Palpatine would return.


Still a stupid idea.


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On 10/14/2019 at 1:29 PM, mrbellamy said:

Turns out it's easy to ignore this stuff.


As someone that consumed a majority of the new canon material and pieced-together the (abundance of) clues as to where the story is headed, I can assure you: It will not be "easy to ignore" Episode IX.


On 10/13/2019 at 9:23 PM, Tom said:

RJ is such a smarmy little jackass.  


On 10/14/2019 at 12:04 AM, TheUlyssesian said:

I feel this way too. My interest ends after Rise of Skywalker.


On 10/14/2019 at 2:08 AM, Pieter_Boelen said:

Isn't it amazing that you get the luxury to choose yourself where you want the story to end for you?

And that other people can make their own different choice if they so wish?

And that nobody is being forced one way or another?


This entire conversation was moved here to the 'Star Wars Disenchantment' thread. Allow me to welcome you to the meat of the Star Wars discussion on JWFan. You are right to question Lucasfilm's plans, motives, and messaging regarding Star Wars. No doubt, something is afoot... and something's coming.

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Yes, we were @Arpy. In regards to Lucasfilm's handling of Star Wars, @Jay has made it clear that he wants any questioning- or negative-toned messages to be posted in this thread. Any such talk is regularly moved here... especially quick once I join the conversation, even though I am no longer disenchanted.


It's already quite difficult to avoid the controversy, negativity, and confusion surrounding current Star Wars projects. But after TROS is released, it will be all but impossible. On this forum, any confusion will only be exacerbated if whole chucks of discussion are constantly being moved.

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Nowhere in this boring, naive video does it say George Lucas planned for (or said that) Palpatine would have to return. Its quoting a Star Wars novel not written by Lucas and deduces that a) it was George Lucas' intention and b) that the sequel trilogy will follow suit. 


Not to mention, it cites (12:57) a script draft of Return of the Jedi that never existed, which only goes to show the ignorace of the man.


Also, I personally find the underlying assumption that Kylo will be redeemed to be obscene. He should die a villain. Given all he's done, there's absolutely no reason for him to redeem himself apart from "well, that's how it goes in Return of the Jedi, so..."


The goal of the concluding film isn't to recall or parallel previous films - its to pay them off.

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Nope Chen, Kylo will be redeemed, and he'll probably do so by way of a parallel with Vader killing Palpatine. Kylo will sacrifice himself.

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Self-sacrifice doesn't redeem a person of patricide, attempted matricide, attempted avunculcide, the killing of the defensless people in that Jakku village, the killing of Luke's other teenage pupils, etcetra.


To suggest that Kylo redeemed himself would be trite, morally reprehensible and rob us of the satisfaction of watching him die a villain.

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Eh, Kylo is a run-of-the-mill shitty villain as much as his lackey, General Sux. The difference is, he's given better scenes and hints of a relationship with Rey.

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21 minutes ago, Thekthithm said:

Rian Johnson should have directed this just so he could prove all these theories wrong.


In a way, I think Rian Johnson was saying that Kylo is beyond redemption. He made the character seem conflicted, when in fact he was just feigning deliberation in order to lure Rey into helping him usurp Snoke.


But most importantly is how Kylo carries himself in the last few scenes. Not to mention that Luke says to Leia that he "can't save him" and that Rey shuts the door (literally and figuratively) on their force connection.


Really, its a point originally made by JJ Abrams in The Force Awakens. Once Kylo kills Han, he becomes evil beyond repair.

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Except I think he was merely picking up on what JJ Abrams put forth.


The Force Awakens is a remake of Star Wars. But the moment where Kylo kills Han is the fateful moment where it - if briefly - forges its own path. Its leaning into all manner of shorthand to parallel Kylo with Vader, suggesting by proxy that he will likewise be redeemed - only to then go completely the other way.


In the final duel, there's not a hint of remorse in Kylo Ren. Once he performed the deed, he became truly evil and quite beyond redemption.

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Vader turned to the dark side side for love and turned back for the same reason. He was consumed by the dark side due to his emotional instability. I don't even know why Kyle turned or why he killed his father, but I do recall him saying he wanted to finish what Vader started, which is stupid.

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39 minutes ago, Demodex said:

How is Vader able to redeem himself if Kylo can't?  Vader did just as evil things as Kylo. 


Not in the first trilogy he didn't. At least, not on-screen, which is what counts. He killed a couple of people, and tortured Leia and Han. That's it.


The inclusion of the murder of the sand people and the younglings in the prequels - while powerful - doesn't really inform Return of the Jedi.

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  • 5 months later...
1 hour ago, Mattris said:

I'm calling it right now: A Final Trilogy will be made, and it will happen sooner rather than later. Its climax will feature the final showdown between the Sith and the Jedi.


57 minutes ago, crumbs said:

I'd be happy for a fourth trilogy


No, no, no, no! (times a hundred)


Film series need an ENDING, which Star Wars has: its called Return of the Jedi. The more movies pile-on that are set after Return of the Jedi, the more it cheapens the enterprise as a whole.


Seeing The Rise of Skywalker only reaffirms my belief that there should never have been a sequel trilogy to begin with. All that it accomplished - by sheer dint of existing - is to invalidate the original films, because it shows that balance wasn't really achieved, the Empire wasn't really defeated, and (as it turns out) neither was the Emperor. All the characters did and achieved in the original three/six films (take your pick) is reduced to naught at the start of The Force Awakens, and they all live the rest of their lives as sad old people, before dying one by one. Pathetic. A fourth trilogy would be a fucking joke at this point.


Out of a greedy, childish desire for "more Star Wars", people are bear-hugging this franchise to death. Just accept that it was good while it lasted and say goodbye. Temperance is important.

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