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Star Wars Disenchantment


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11 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Film series' need an ENDING, which Star Wars has - its called Return of the Jedi. The more movies pile-on that are set after Return of the Jedi, the more it cheapens the enterprise as a whole.

 

Seeing The Rise of Skywalker only reaffirms my belief that there should never have been a sequel trilogy to begin with. A fourth trilogy would be a fucking joke at this point.

 

Out of a greedy desire for "more Star Wars", people are bear-hugging this franchise to death. Just accept that it was good while it lasted and say goodbye. Temperance is important.

 

After Palpatine's words and actions in the Prequel Trilogy (particularly ROTS), ROTJ could not be the end of the Saga. (I've already explained this at length.)

 

After what happened in the Sequel Trilogy, the Saga cannot logically end with Rey walking away into the sunset after she killed Emperor Palpatine, as he wanted.

 

I think it's pretty clear that Lucasfilm never intended to close the book on the Saga with this trilogy. A Final Trilogy would wrap up (the many) loose ends and explore the very heart of what makes Star Wars so special: Love and light will win against hate and the dark.

 

Desiring a spectacular, definitive conclusion to the Saga is not "greedy"; it's absolutely necessary for the many disappointed, disenchanted fans to get on board with Star Wars post-George Lucas. I truly worry that the franchise and fandom will never be the same again if Lucasfilm can't end the Saga on a high note.

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16 minutes ago, Mattris said:

After Palpatine's words and actions in the Prequel Trilogy (particularly ROTS), ROTJ could not be the end of the Saga.

 

And yet it clearly is. Best to just mind-wipe yourself of the sequel trilogy, I'm afraid.

 

Sure, you can find ways (convoluted or not) to make sequels to Return of the Jedi - Disney did just that - but they were clearly so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.

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11 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

And yet it clearly is.

 

Sure, you can find ways to make sequels to Return of the Jedi - Disney did just that - but they were clearly so preoccupied with whether or not they could, that they didn't stop to think if they should.

 

Given all that transpired in the nine films (and canon), how is the Saga clearly over? How could it have been finished after the first six films?

 

I remember that you thought Palpatine's return wouldn't happen... that it wouldn't make sense... that Rey wouldn't be related to him... and that the Rey's Theme Emperor/Vader references didn't exist or meant nothing. You were wrong on all accounts, and I predicted all of them. Just sayin'.

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3 minutes ago, Mattris said:

How could it have been over after the first six films?

 

Lets see. By the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke has become a Jedi Knight, Vader dies and is redeemed, Palpatine is slain, the Empire is defeated, and Han and Leia can begin a relationship.

 

Not a single thread of story is left dangling for sequels to pick up. In that regard, it is a very succesful concluding chapter. It should never have had a sequel.

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7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Not a single thread of story is left dangling for sequels to pick up. In that regard, it is a very succesful concluding chapter. It should never have had a sequel.

 

You neglected to mention any threads from the Prequel Trilogy. In context, they greatly affect the events of the Original Trilogy.

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@Chen G. Nothing in ROTJ implies that Luke will re-establish the Jedi. The title of Return of the Jedi referred to Anakin finally rejecting the dark side and saving his son.

 

The fact that you mention Boba Fett - and not Emperor Palpatine's "cheat death" and 'afraid to loose power' talk - leads me think that you don't really understand the Saga.

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24 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Lets see. By the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke has become a Jedi Knight, Vader dies and is redeemed, Palpatine is slain, the Empire is defeated, and Han and Leia can begin a relationship.

 

Not a single thread of story is left dangling for sequels to pick up. In that regard, it is a very succesful concluding chapter. It should never have had a sequel.

 

YES!!

 

 

The saga ended with ROTJ.  Was anyone really dying to know what happened after that?  Only people that read the EU novels. 

Was anyone left dissatisfied after ROTJ?  No.

There was no need for the ST. 

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And yet in ROTS, George Lucas opened up that can of worms by having Emperor Palpatine speak of cheating death, being afraid to loose power, and the dark side's pathway to unnatural abilities. With those concepts in mind, the Emperor's return was inevitable, as his actions in ROTJ are then viewed in an entirely new light... or should I say, dark?

 

The TROS novelization and Aftermath: Empire's End (released early 2017) confirm that during the Battle of Endor, Palpatine expected - or at the very least, was prepared - to die. Before Lucas made the prequels, he approved of the Emperor's return in the Dark Empire comic series... by moving his spirit into cloned bodies. Sound familiar?

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1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Nothing in ROTJ implies that Luke will re-establish the Jedi. The title of Return of the Jedi referred to Anakin finally rejecting the dark side and saving his son.

 

Its said that Luke will become a Jedi when he confronts Vader, which he does; and Yoda also orders him to "pass on what you have learned." That Luke will re-establish the Jedi order is implicit in all of these moments.

 

50 minutes ago, Mattris said:

And yet in ROTS, George Lucas opened up that can of worms by having Emperor Palpatine speak of cheating death, being afraid to loose power, and the dark side's pathway to unnatural abilities.

 

The intention there is to use the force to elongate one's lifespan, and therefore avoided natural causes of death - age, sickness or, in the case of Anakin and Padme, childbirth. Its also consistent with "I will even learn to stop people from dying."

 

Clearly, this cannot protect one from being thrown down a shaft, being blown up, slain with a saber, etcetra. If it did, Darth Plagueis would have lived to tell the tale, which he did not: he was slain. There's no logic in introducing a power that prevents death regardless of cause, because it makes the storytelling meaningless since no-one can ever really die.

 

At best, you can say this passage exists to explain why the emperor didn't die of old age by the time of Return of the Jedi. At worst, he's just lying.

 

1 hour ago, Demodex said:

There was no need for the ST. 

 

Ergo it should never have been made. Even if it didn't revive the Emperor, its very existence takes away from Return of the Jedi.

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2 hours ago, Mattris said:

Rey walking away into the sunset after she killed Emperor Palpatine, as he wanted.

 

See, that's the whole reason force lightning was used. If Rey had killed him with her lightsaber, then he would have succeeded. But he was the one using the force lightning, and she redirected it back in his face. He killed himself, and there was no where for his spirit and the Sith spirits to transfer.

 

57 minutes ago, Mattris said:

And yet in ROTS, George Lucas opened up that can of worms by having Emperor Palpatine speak of cheating death

 

For other people... the whole irony of the story was that Plagueis could not save himself, only others.

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On 3/29/2020 at 9:13 AM, Demodex said:

The context of Palpatine's speech was simply that the Sith could keep other people ("the ones he cared about") from dying.  It was only a tease so Anakin could think he could save Padme. 

Plagueis couldn't stop himself from dying so why should we expect Palpatine to? 

 

Palpatine should have stayed dead. Him coming back in Episode 9 was stupid. 

 

"It's ironic. He could save others from death... but not himself."

 

Plagueis couldn't stop himself from dying because, as a true Sith, Palpatine was able to betray his master by complete surprise. Having been taught "everything he knew", is it such a far-fetched concept that Palpatine would have superseded Plagueis' Force abilities?

 

I'm well aware that Palpatine was lying to Anakin and never intended to let him live happily with Padme. In all likelihood, Palpatine put those premonitions in Anakin's mind... and killed Padme using the Force. From the first he became aware of Anakin, his intention was to tempt him to the dark side so that he would eventually become his apprentice.

 

"All who gain power are afraid to loose it."

 

"Take your Jedi weapon. I am unarmed. Strike me down with all of your hatred, and your journey toward the dark side will be complete."

 

After all of Palpatine's plotting, planning, and manipulation, do you really think it make sense that he would have baited Luke, Vader, and the Rebels to kill him... and not have a plan to keep his power?

 

"Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design."

 

Palpatine is the villain of the Saga. I don't know why anyone would underestimate him or ignore his mastery of the dark side.

 

"You will find that it is you who are mistaken... about a great many things."

 

On 3/29/2020 at 10:05 AM, Manakin Skywalker said:

See, that's the whole reason force lightning was used. If Rey had killed him with her lightsaber, then he would have succeeded. But he was the one using the force lightning, and she redirected it back in his face. He killed himself, and there was no where for his spirit and the Sith spirits to transfer.

 

As Palpatine taunted Rey, she was able to defend herself from the lightning by absorbing it with Leia's lightsaber. She then activated Anakin's lightsaber and Forced the lightning back at him, screaming with rage. She deliberately killed him in anger. The Emperor never intended to kill Rey... but his spirit survived. Mark my words.

 

And who says Palpatine's plan had to involve being struck with a lightsaber? Do you think he forgot about the effects of reflected Force lightning?

 

On 3/29/2020 at 10:05 AM, Manakin Skywalker said:

For other people... the whole irony of the story was that Plagueis could not save himself, only others.

 

We should know by now that Palpatine cares nothing about anyone but himself. He would have spent his life selfishly, attempting to "cheat death". TROS shows that he succeeded: "I have died before."

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3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

He's beyond wrong.

 

How ironic, Chen. It's you who has been proven wrong on these topics.

 

2 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

I for one am glad Mattris won't ever write for Lucasfilm.

 

Speak for yourself, Ron.

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1 hour ago, Mattris said:

How ironic, Chen. It's you who has been proven wrong on these topics.

 

Look, I could see Lucasfilm coming up with a fourth trilogy, because at one point George Lucas was bulshitting about wanting to make twelve films in four trilogies (because if you're lying at least lie big!), so they have that to use as an excuse...

 

But I'm certain they won't bring Palpatine yet again. It'll be a joke; plus, who knows if McDiarmid will be able by the time they get around to doing it. The time between trilogies has never been shorter than a decade, and each entry comes at least two years apart.

 

Plus, now with the lack of a throughline in the form of the legacy characters and dropping buisness from entry to entry in the sequel trilogy, they'll have to do a lot of thinking before they go into a fourth trilogy. In fact, we know they're slowing down on feature films. At any rate, I will not be watching such a trilogy, and in fact I wish it wouldn't get made. Just let old things die.

 

Also, suppose they do a fourth trilogy and close up all the stories. Will that have made the sequel trilogy worth sitting through? Do you really think they flunked a trilogy on purpose to build up to another one?

 

4 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

I for one am glad Mattris won't ever write for Lucasfilm.

 

I was glad, too. But then JJ Abrams and Chris Terrio wrote something just as bad as the stupidest of fan theories.

 

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3 hours ago, Mattris said:

Speak for yourself, Ron.


The name’s Aaron and I’m quite confident I spoke for a lot of people in dismissing your shitty ideas.

 

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

I was glad, too. But then JJ Abrams and Chris Terrio wrote something just as bad as the stupidest of fan theories.


And now I’ll speak for just myself again... It was Abrams, Terrio and Rian Johnson before them. TLJ is still the only non-Hobbit movie that I hated enough to actually consider walking out of the theater. Had I been alone, I would have. Anyone who expected Episode IX to be a good movie after seeing that steaming pile deluded themselves.

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I like The Last Jedi. It has its issues, but it’s a good film, and certainly next to The Rise of Skywalker it’s bloody Citizen Kane.

 

Neither film (nor The Force Awakens, which I also like) should have been made, though.

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Whilst I don't fully agree with Mattris, I do agree that the series' potential for more stories is still there. Did the original trilogy end with RotJ? Yes, it formed a tight narrative arc that wrapped up the main Skywalker saga, but there's nothing saying that was a definitive ending. There's always an opportunity to tell more stories.

I thought the ending to TRoS was poignant and heartfelt, but it also felt like it was leaving the door open for more stories - with Rey and everyone else.

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9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Its said that Luke will become a Jedi when he confronts Vader, which he does; and Yoda also orders him to "pass on what you have learned." That Luke will re-establish the Jedi order is implicit in all of these moments.

 

The reality is, Luke attempted to re-establish the Jedi... and failed.

 

9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

The intention there is to use the force to elongate one's lifespan, and therefore avoided natural causes of death - age, sickness or, in the case of Anakin and Padme, childbirth. Its also consistent with "I will even learn to stop people from dying."

 

Clearly, this cannot protect one from being thrown down a shaft, being blown up, slain with a saber, etcetra. If it did, Darth Plagueis would have lived to tell the tale, which he did not: he was slain. There's no logic in introducing a power that prevents death regardless of cause, because it makes the storytelling meaningless since no-one can ever really die.

 

At best, you can say this passage exists to explain why the emperor didn't die of old age by the time of Return of the Jedi. At worst, he's just lying.

 

Why should cheating death using the dark side's pathway to unnatural abilities be limited to avoiding natural causes of death? "Clearly," Palpatine wasn't "lying" about this.

 

Darth Plagueis was slain when Palpatine "killed him in his sleep". Even if Plagueis had discovered a method to cheat death with the dark side, Palpatine's story implies that the user must prepare his soul consciously.

 

9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Ergo it should never have been made. Even if it didn't revive the Emperor, its very existence takes away from Return of the Jedi.

 

What is "taken away" with a Sequel Trilogy? Return of the Jedi is just part of the story. To understand what would likely happen subsequently, one must consider the bigger picture. Set 30 years later, what occurred in Episodes VII through IX was a logical progression of the story and characters.

 

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Look, I could see Lucasfilm coming up with a fourth trilogy, because at one point George Lucas was bulshitting about wanting to make twelve films in four trilogies (because if you're lying at least lie big!), so they have that to use as an excuse...

 

You own a George Lucas Bullshitometer? Impressive!

 

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

But I'm certain they won't bring Palpatine yet again. It'll be a joke; plus, who knows if McDiarmid will be able by the time they get around to doing it. The time between trilogies has never been shorter than a decade, and each entry comes at least two years apart.

 

 

You've been "certain" about many Star Wars predictions... and wrong about all of them. Three Star Wars films have already been announced for 2022-2026. If it's another trilogy, you'll be proven wrong again.

 

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Plus, now with the lack of a throughline in the form of the legacy characters and dropping buisness from entry to entry in the sequel trilogy, they'll have to do a lot of thinking before they go into a fourth trilogy. In fact, we know they're slowing down on feature films. At any rate, I will not be watching such a trilogy, and in fact I wish it wouldn't get made. Just let old things die.

 

If you think the "legacy characters" couldn't return, you underestimate the Force. I think they did "a lot of thinking" before making had the Sequel Trilogy. They knew they couldn't wrap up everything in one trilogy - nor did they want to. People who say they won't watch it are most likely lying. What if John Williams comes back? Daisy Ridley would have to be in the first movie!

 

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Also, suppose they do a fourth trilogy and close up all the stories. Will that have made the sequel trilogy worth sitting through? Do you really think they flunked a trilogy on purpose to build up to another one?

 

You may consider it "flunked", but the Sequel Trilogy would should seem a purposeful set-up for the substantial pay-offs in the Final Trilogy.

 

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I was glad, too. But then JJ Abrams and Chris Terrio wrote something just as bad as the stupidest of fan theories.

 

I don't think they're stupid.

 

1 hour ago, A. A. Ron said:

The name’s Aaron and I’m quite confident I spoke for a lot of people in dismissing your shitty ideas.

 

I for one am glad 'a lot of people who dismiss my shitty ideas' won't ever write for Lucasfilm.

1 hour ago, A. A. Ron said:

It was Abrams, Terrio and Rian Johnson before them. TLJ is still the only non-Hobbit movie that Was so bad I actually considered leaving the theater. Anyone who expected Episode IX to be a good movie after seeing that steaming pile deluded themselves.

 

Nothing in TLJ doomed TROS, which turned out to be underwhelming... but I think this was purposeful, as it was not meant to conclude the Saga.

 

52 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Pretty sure he speaks for the vast majority, bucko.

 

Pretty sure "the vast majority" do not understand Star Wars, bucko.

 

35 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

^But not Palpatine. His story is 100% finished, end of story.

 

The Star Wars Saga cannot end until Palpatine - and all of the Sith - are conclusively destroyed. End of story.

 

44 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Whilst I don't fully agree with Mattris, I do agree that the series' potential for more stories is still there. Did the original trilogy end with RotJ? Yes, it formed a tight narrative arc that wrapped up the main Skywalker saga, but there's nothing saying that was a definitive ending. There's always an opportunity to tell more stories.

I thought the ending to TRoS was poignant and heartfelt, but it also felt like it was leaving the door open for more stories - with Rey and everyone else.

 

The OT stands on its own but cannot be 'the end' after the Prequel Trilogy. "... the ability to cheat death..."   "Misread the Prophesy could have been."

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18 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

I for one am glad 'a lot of people who dismiss my shitty ideas' won't ever write for Lucasfilm.

 

 

I'm glad none of us write for Lucasfilm. I wouldn't want any of us to have to endure what anyone touches Star Wars has to.

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@Mattris My point is, there can always be more Star Wars, more to tell. It might be wreckless, it might be misguided, but where the franchise can be exploited, it will. I'm not overly pessimistic about that fact either - I love some of the expanded materials Lucasfilm has put out - Clone Wars, some of the novels, games etc.

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I can't fathom how people exist who watched this failed trilogy, especially its ugly finale, and still are hell bent on willing another one of those into existence.

The light side DID WIN. It was asinine in concept, pathetically written, clumsily executed, and agenda driven, but it DID WIN.

 

Vader is DEAD, Palpatine is DEAD, Yoda is DEAD, Han is DEAD, Leia is DEAD, Luke is DEAD, Ben Solo is DEAD.

The saga is beyond DONE.

Just because you COULD invent some "never before heard" Sith to pretend like they weren't destroyed and to pretend you NEED another trilogy, doesn't mean you HAVE to.

 

Let it go.

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3 hours ago, gkgyver said:

The saga is beyond DONE.

 

You say that, but we're gonna have a trilogy of movies exploring Lando's last (kinda-sexy-ish) line "Well, let's find out." 

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It's strange how subsequent films can change your estimation of earlier films.

 

I earlier preferred Ep7 to Ep8. This was before Ep9 was released. But after watching Ep9, I prefer Ep8 to Ep7.

 

Basically, all the problems I had with Ep8, Ep9 managed to resolve.

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1 hour ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

It has nothing new to say, but you have fun watching it.

TLJ is, for me, a deeper, richer film. It's better paced, and better framed with some spectacularly beautiful shots.

 

The puzzling thing about The Force Awakens is that it is fun, even though lots of bad sh*t goes down in it. I mean, we basically open with Kylo Ren ordering the massacre of an entire village, and close with him killing his father. Its actually quite tragic.

 

I don't at all agree that The Last Jedi (which I found just a tad laborious) is better paced, especially given the fact that The Force Awakens is the establishing film. Those movies so often get stuck in setting-up an entire trilogy or series (Sorcerer's Stone, An Unexpected Journey), and The Force Awakens admirably never does that. It has great momentum, without the breakneck, breathlessness of The Rise of Skywalker.

 

So yeah, its still my favourite.

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On 3/29/2020 at 2:34 PM, Chen G. said:

Seeing The Rise of Skywalker only reaffirms my belief that there should never have been a sequel trilogy to begin with. All that it accomplished - by sheer dint of existing - is to invalidate the original films, because it shows that balance wasn't really achieved, the Empire wasn't really defeated, and (as it turns out) neither was the Emperor. All the characters did and achieved in the original three/six films (take your pick) is reduced to naught at the start of The Force Awakens, and they all live the rest of their lives as sad old people, before dying one by one. Pathetic.

Very, VERY true words.

Surely they could've thought of a way to let the main characters have a BIT of happiness?

And NOT undo Vader's sacrifice in RotJ?

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If they were baddies completely unrelated to the Empire it could work, but then it wouldn't be "Episode VII", would it? it'd be a spinoff.

 

The First Order is essentially a remnant of the Empire, and that the Empire (not to mention dark Force users) effectivelly endured undoes what Vader's sacrifice (and really, the efforts of all the main characters) achieved.

 

I repeat: There should never have been an Episode VII.

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2 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

Basically, all the problems I had with Ep8, Ep9 managed to resolve.

 

Yes, it's called picking up the pieces. 

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50 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

You can't make an Episode VII and not undo Vader's sacrifice to some extent.

Letting the New Republic shine for a while would've helped.

At least have them play a role in one episode.

Instead of "don't show, immediately blow up".

 

Also not bringing Palpy back would've been good.

Then at least Vader would've dealt nicely with THAT particular evil.

 

8 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

 

Yes, it's called picking up the pieces. 

"Leaving things in pieces"?

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Just now, Pieter Boelen said:

Letting the New Republic shine for a while would've helped.

At least have them play a role in one episode.

 

Would that make for interesting cinema, though?

 

And, again, once shit hits the fan again, it'll still undo the originals. There's no way to make Episode VII and NOT do that.

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Lucasfilm totally blew it in this pitiful cluster crap!

In conclusion a very bad, expensive xeroxed 7-8-9 trilogy of the 3 originals that mirrored the unnecessary pursuit on stupidity in continuing the saga which failed miserably and ALL that came before was utterly pointless and was wasteful

in every true sense of the word. Time for it to be buried within the Sarlaac pit of doom & JJ Abrahms with KK take forced retirement.

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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Would that make for interesting cinema, though?

I'd imagine some small-scale adventure for Episode 7 where the old and new main characters get to have fun together.

Perhaps something with the various crime syndicates, so more of an internal conflict than big, open warfare.

This would lead them from the centre of the galaxy to the outer edges and allow us to see how much better off everything is without the Empire.

But once on the edge, they realise there is a large, looming threat from far beyond.

 

They might even discover that Palpatine had been building up the Empire fleet because he knew about this.

Might've been an interesting realisation that there was a shade of grey, even to that former big bad.

Cliffhanger ending.

 

Episode 8 would be war preparations, along with outside skirmishes.

The Republic would be on the retreat by the end, digging themselves in for a siege in the inner rim.

 

Finally, Episode 9 where the Republic is at its lowest point.

They send someone far beyond enemy lines in an attempt to find help 'out there' (hints for this existing would show up in the prior films).

After adventures in unknown space, they find this help and together manage to save the galaxy from this greatest threat yet.

 

And, in so doing, would show that the galaxy was much larger than originally thought.

With plenty of space for all sorts spin-off series and films to come later.

 

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

And, again, once shit hits the fan again, it'll still undo the originals. There's no way to make Episode VII and NOT do that.

To some extent that would indeed be inevitable.

But even if Vader's sacrifice wouldn't have solved the problems FOREVER, showing that he did bring good for a while would go a long way.

Especially if that happens to be the reason that the good guys end up having a fighting chance in the sequel trilogy.

 

1 hour ago, Þekþiþm said:

They blew up Coruscant in TFA anyway.

Wasn't even Coruscant. Some newly invented planet named "Hosnian Prime", apparently.

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21 minutes ago, Pieter Boelen said:

To some extent that would indeed be inevitable. But even if Vader's sacrifice wouldn't have solved the problems FOREVER, showing that he did bring good for a while would go a long way.

 

Perhaps the better choice would have simply been not to make an Episode VII?

 

21 minutes ago, Pieter Boelen said:

I'd imagine some small-scale adventure for Episode 7 where the old and new main characters get to have fun together.

Perhaps something with the various crime syndicates, so more of an internal conflict than big, open warfare.

This would lead them from the centre of the galaxy to the outer edges and allow us to see how much better off everything is without the Empire. Once on the edge, they realise there is a large, looming threat from far beyond.

 

What you're describing is still a spinoff, not an Episode VII. Even with returning characters, its a completely separate storyline that virtually has naught to do with the films that preceded it.

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