Jump to content

Star Wars Disenchantment


John
 Share

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

What you're describing is still a spinoff, not an Episode VII. Even with returning characters, its a completely separate storyline that virtually has naught to do with the films that preceded it.

Largely true.

 

But the episode numbers were inspired on the serials of old, right?

And I'm sure those eventually "spun off" from their first story too.

 

They could've kept going until Episode XX for all I care.

But not as a single all-encompassing story.

Just as an ongoing adventure.

Because why not?

 

Perhaps there could've been an Episode Zero to tie in with my "alternate sequel trilogy" thought.

Though that does admittedly become a bit ridiculous.

What's next? Episode Negative One?

 

Episode Negative Fifty would then be The Old Republic. :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Pieter Boelen said:

But the episode numbers were inspired on the serials of old, right?

And I'm sure those eventually "spun off" from their first story too.

 

They could've kept going until Episode XX for all I care.

But not as a single all-encompassing story.

 

Not quite. The episode numbers were added after the decision was made to make Vader out to be Luke's father, and when that decision was made, the series did become (or at least aspired to be) a single, all-encompassing story.

 

Before that time, its clear to me that Star Wars was intended to be more like Indiana Jones than The Lord of the Rings. I've read an early draft of Star Wars which was basically A Hidden Fortress in space, but had a text crawl at the end to tease a sequel - which had to do with "the perilous search for the princess of Ondos" - which makes it sound like a completely separate adventure to the film we've just watched...errr, read.

 

Also, before the cliffhanger ending and "I am your father" moment were written into The Empire Strikes Back, it too reads like a perfectly standalone story; and withou the cliffhanger ending, the third film would have probably been standalone, as well. This also explains where Lucas came up with the preposterous idea of twelve films: when they're standalone, there's really no limit to how many you can make, so why NOT make twelve?

 

But, of course, once Vader was made Luke's father all of that was changed. A part of me thinks that, once he made the decision to go for an interconnected saga, Lucas already saw nine films (much less twelve) as being too ambitious, but didn't have the heart to tell eager fans that he was shortening the franchise by half, so he kept talking about nine chapters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You guys, seriously, the five books that Timothy Zahn wrote in the 90s nailed it. All the stuff you’re talking about. Walked the fine line. Fun adventures. Satisfying. Don’t undo RotJ. If you like books or audiobooks, check them out!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Zahn books aren’t as bad as the KJA books of the same era, but man did I not care for them.

 

For me, I think the only really good books of the pre-prequels era were a few of the Rogue Squadron books.  And the kids’ books about Palpatine’s three-eyed sons Trioculus and Triclops, of course

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/30/2020 at 4:26 AM, gkgyver said:

I can't fathom how people exist who watched this failed trilogy, especially its ugly finale, and still are hell bent on willing another one of those into existence.

The light side DID WIN. It was asinine in concept, pathetically written, clumsily executed, and agenda driven, but it DID WIN.

 

Vader is DEAD, Palpatine is DEAD, Yoda is DEAD, Han is DEAD, Leia is DEAD, Luke is DEAD, Ben Solo is DEAD.

The saga is beyond DONE.

Just because you COULD invent some "never before heard" Sith to pretend like they weren't destroyed and to pretend you NEED another trilogy, doesn't mean you HAVE to.

 

Let it go.

 

I suspect you don't understand the Star Wars Saga very well... or the purpose of the Sequel Trilogy and how it ended. Are you even aware of what transpired in the non-film canon material as it relates to the films? Have you read any of the novelizations of the films? And who said anything about 'inventing some never before heard Sith'? I predict that Palpatine lives... within Rey.

 

If your interest and passion for this continued Star Wars Saga is DEAD, it's you who should 'let it go'.

 

On 3/30/2020 at 10:21 AM, Pieter Boelen said:

Very, VERY true words.

Surely they could've thought of a way to let the main characters have a BIT of happiness?

And NOT undo Vader's sacrifice in RotJ?

 

The happiness was seen at the end of ROTJ. Thirty years later, the characters we knew had lived their lives in accordance with their words and actions from the OT.

Nothing can undo Anakin Skywalker's sacrifice to save his son, which returned him to the light side of the Force and brought balance for many years. The fact that Palpatine eventually returned undoes nothing... but shows how cunning, powerful, and evil he really was. "Those who gain power are afraid to loose it." It should not be shocking that a physical death would not defeat this demon. The story continues.

 

On 3/30/2020 at 10:31 AM, Chen G. said:

If they were baddies completely unrelated to the Empire it could work, but then it wouldn't be "Episode VII", would it? it'd be a spinoff.

 

The First Order is essentially a remnant of the Empire, and that the Empire (not to mention dark Force users) effectivelly endured undoes what Vader's sacrifice (and really, the efforts of all the main characters) achieved.

 

I repeat: There should never have been an Episode VII.

 

With that logic, does the fact that Germany started World War II "undo" World War I? The efforts the main characters achieved are not undone. They - and the galaxy at large - simply underestimated the evil they thought they defeated. In the context of the first two trilogies and new canon material, it should not be a surprise that Palpatine returned. Do I need to present a list of clues?

 

On 3/30/2020 at 11:16 AM, Pieter Boelen said:

Letting the New Republic shine for a while would've helped.

At least have them play a role in one episode.

Instead of "don't show, immediately blow up".

 

Also not bringing Palpy back would've been good.

Then at least Vader would've dealt nicely with THAT particular evil.

 

The New Republic shined for 30 years.

Vader (Anakin) dealt deal with evil: his inner demons. His character arc was never contingent on killing his superior. This is indisputable.

 

On 3/30/2020 at 11:58 AM, theMaestraX said:

Lucasfilm totally blew it in this pitiful cluster crap!

In conclusion a very bad, expensive xeroxed 7-8-9 trilogy of the 3 originals that mirrored the unnecessary pursuit on stupidity in continuing the saga which failed miserably and ALL that came before was utterly pointless and was wasteful in every true sense of the word. Time for it to be buried within the Sarlaac pit of doom & JJ Abrahms with KK take forced retirement.

 

I would not hold out hope that the Sequel Trilogy will ever "be buried". It's canon and will probably remain so for our lifetimes. So you have four choices:

 

1. During the nearly three years before the next feature film, try to understand and enjoy the Star Wars canon material as it relates to its grander purpose and story.

2. Treat consuming the canon material as a chore... and complain about its contents.

3. Ignore all new Star Wars content and continue complaining.

4. Ignore all new Star Wars content and stop complaining.

 

Choose wisely. 

 

On 3/30/2020 at 12:42 PM, Pieter Boelen said:

I'd imagine some small-scale adventure for Episode 7 where the old and new main characters get to have fun together.

...

And, in so doing, would show that the galaxy was much larger than originally thought.

With plenty of space for all sorts spin-off series and films to come later.

 

The Star Wars Saga was meant to be personal and simple in its meaning, with applicable life lessons to represent the implications of choosing the light side (selfless, good, Jedi) or dark side (selfish, evil, Sith), both on a personal level and on the grand scale, with a galaxy - quite literally - in the balance.

 

On 3/30/2020 at 3:09 PM, Pieter Boelen said:

Largely true.

 

But the episode numbers were inspired on the serials of old, right?

And I'm sure those eventually "spun off" from their first story too.

 

They could've kept going until Episode XX for all I care.

But not as a single all-encompassing story.

Just as an ongoing adventure.

Because why not?

 

Perhaps there could've been an Episode Zero to tie in with my "alternate sequel trilogy" thought.

Though that does admittedly become a bit ridiculous.

What's next? Episode Negative One?

 

Episode Negative Fifty would then be The Old Republic. :P

 

When Palpatine and the Sith are definitively destroyed, the Saga will have concluded. One more trilogy will do it.

 

19 hours ago, Pellaeon said:

You guys, seriously, the five books that Timothy Zahn wrote in the 90s nailed it. All the stuff you’re talking about. Walked the fine line. Fun adventures. Satisfying. Don’t undo RotJ. If you like books or audiobooks, check them out!

 

Do you think the Lucas-approved Dark Empire comics from the early 90s undid ROTJ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Not quite. The episode numbers were added after the decision was made to make Vader out to be Luke's father, and when that decision was made, the series did become (or at least aspired to be) a single, all-encompassing story.

From what I understood, Lucas wanted to release the first film as "Episode 4" right at the very start.

It was just a random number out of his hat to suggest the story had been going on and you, as audience, were only now dropping in.

That was deemed too confusing and so it was renamed to simply "Star Wars".

 

Then when the movie turned successful and Lucas got more power, he added the "Episode 4" after all.

As far as I'm aware, none of this was related to the decision to make Vader into Luke's father.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Alexcremers said:

Am I the only one who remembers interviews from 1977 - 1978 where Lucas said he had 9 Star Wars stories?

No, you're not, Alex. Lucas stated, categorically, that STAR WARS would be a 9-part saga.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a Star Wars fan back then, the idea of a 9-part series boggled my mind. I thought that Star Wars would be a one-off. I also couldn't believe Star Wars wasn't the first part. 

 

Remember, this was before social media, before the dark times.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Mattris said:

With that logic, does the fact that Germany started World War II "undo" World War I? The efforts the main characters achieved are not undone. They - and the galaxy at large - simply underestimated the evil they thought they defeated. In the context of the first two trilogies and new canon material, it should not be a surprise that Palpatine returned. Do I need to present a list of clues?

 

 

Mattris, I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. It might blow your mind, but bear with me: stories like Star Wars aren't real life. Yeah, I know, mind-blowing, right?

 

They're stories and therefore they have a beginning, a middle and an end. They don't continue indefinitely like real history. The end of Star Wars is Return of the Jedi. It should never have had a sequel, and yes, the very existence of such a sequel undoes what the previous films and their conclusion were about.

 

3 hours ago, Pieter Boelen said:

From what I understood, Lucas wanted to release the first film as "Episode 4" right at the very start.

It was just a random number out of his hat to suggest the story had been going on and you, as audience, were only now dropping in.

That was deemed too confusing and so it was renamed to simply "Star Wars".

 

Then when the movie turned successful and Lucas got more power, he added the "Episode 4" after all.

 

No. Early drafts read stuff like "Saga I - The Star Wars." Not Episode IV and not A New Hope. Those were added after the decision to make Vader Luke's father necessitated prequels (and even then it took some time) and effectivelly turned the story into a saga.1 Lucas tried to make it seem like it was the plan all along, to the point of counterfeiting a version of the 1976 script that carried an "Episode IV: A New Hope" title.2

 

3 hours ago, Alexcremers said:

Am I the only one who remembers interviews from 1977 - 1978 where Lucas said he had 9 Star Wars stories?

 

No, initially he started talking about twelve entries. Then, once it became a saga rather than an anthology, he reduced it down to nine.Like I said, I suspect that he always wanted to reduce it to six, but wanted to soften the blow for his fans, rather than telling them he cutting the saga by half: in describing his process, Lucas always described the sequel trilogy as having been written after he wrote the original six films in one stroke: "After the success of Star Wars I added another trilogy", he said.4 This reads to me as Lucas somehow conceding the idea that a sequel trilogy was already tangential to the six films. 

 

In 2003, Lucas was still intermittently talking about nine films5 and about six films (denying, on those occasions, that he ever committed to do nine6), so he himself lost track of his own bullshit. Since Disney started developing their sequel trilogy, he obviously returned to the "it was always going to be nine" version of the lie.

 

I should add: Lucas didn't just say he was making twelve films: he said he already wrote them all!7 In one version, he said he wrote one huge script which he divided into two halves, dividing each half further into thirds - ergo the original six films - plus another trilogy set after this (the sequel trilogy) and three "spinoff" movies: a Wookiee film, a Droid film, and another one of some kind. Supposedly, he did all of this before beginning work on The Empire Strikes Back.8 Bollocks.

 

As I understand it, before the original film came out, Lucas thought he'd be lucky to get a trilogy off of the ground and call it quits there. His deals for both the cast and for an author to the novelizations were for two potential sequels. The amazing thing is that even now, having effectivelly retired, Lucas continues reiterating his lies, telling Charlie Rose that his original script turned into three scripts that constituted the classic trilogy.8 He just can't stop.

____________

1 Michael Kaminski, The Secret History of Star Wars (2008), p. 94

2 ibid, p. 195.

3 ibid. p.197, 149-151.

Kaminski, The Secret History of Star Wars, p. 189.

George Lucas Fox News Interview, 2003, quoted in TheOneRing.

5Kaminski, The Secret History of Star Wars, p. 185, 215, 417. 

6 Ibid. p. 149-150, 451.

7  Michael Kaminski, The Lost Star Wars Stories: Episodes X-XII

George Lucas Charlie Rose interview, 2015.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've supplied footnotes to relevant evidence: check those out.

 

Appearantly, twelve was the number of entries in vintage serials. Lucas later claimed three of those twelve were spinoffs that were "tangential to the saga", but that's only after the idea of a saga with a unified storyline came up. Originally, it was said the twelve films would be roughly stacked in four trilogies, rather than three of them being spinoffs.

 

Again, it was probably going to be like Indiana Jones: separate adventures in each episode, rather than a continuing storyline.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there a direct quote from an interview where Lucas claims that he had written the outlines/complete scripts for 12 parts instead of 9? I remember 9, never 12. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm ... I want to hear it from the man himself.

 

I could be wrong but I think this was written in Time Magazine March 1978:

 

Quote

Anticipating his share, an estimated $80 million, Lucas has set up four corporations: Star Wars Corp. will make Star Wars II and then ten, count 'em, ten other planned sequels

 

Not a direct quote from Lucas though ...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

I had three trilogies of nine films, and then another couple of odd films. Essentially, there were twelve films.

 

Again, if its an anthology of separate adventures (like Indy, or James Bond) than there's really no limit to how many you can make, and since Lucas didn't plan on directing them anymore, all it could do was generate revenue for Lucasfilm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:
Quote

I had three trilogies of nine films, and then another couple of odd films. Essentially, there were twelve films.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, and three additional films.

 

And, again, this quote is from after the decision was made to go to a saga, when the twelve-film scheme had become far too ambitious, so he had to find an elegant way of backing down from that figure. That's what this quote is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Odd" in the sense that they were spinoffs of a sort.

 

Again, this rhetoric of "odd films" is there simply because he had to find a way to back down from the number twelve, which by now (this was 1980) had become far too ambitious. Its no problem making twelve film when they're separate adventures like James Bond, but when they're meant to be one saga (which is what Lucas decided when he made Vader Luke's father) - not so much. Even nine were too much, really, and in that very article he makes the underhand confession that the sequel trilogy was an afterthought, too.

 

Lucas had become something of a pathological liar. A couple of his other lies include always intending for Jabba to be a stop-motion creaturewanting to return to make artsy short films once he's done with Star Wars; having written three Indy films in advance - which is what he told Spielberg; etc. I wouldn't take a single thing he says at face value, if I were you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Lucas had become something of a pathological liar. 

 

He probably also said different things to different magazines, depending on how and what he felt that day. 

 

Anyway, it does show that he realized very early on that Star Wars could go on forever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Alexcremers said:

BTW, where are the "experimental films" that he promised us?

 

Its just a "listen guys, I know I've made Star Wars, but deep down I'm actually an arthouse guy. Really, I am!" type of rhetoric. He's never made those movies, and he probably never will.

 

48 minutes ago, Alexcremers said:

Anyway, it does show that he realized very early on that Star Wars could go on forever.

 

Again, because originally he envisioned it as more like James Bond, where each film is a separate story. When that's the case, it really can go on forever. But once it evolved into a saga? No, it can't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Sweeping Strings said:

Yeah, I doubt anyone believes he'll spring something like THX-1138 on us now.  

 

I already have a title: LUH-3417

 

44227492@N05_r.jpg

 

This time it's my story!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Þekþiþm said:

So what does he do all day? Just sit around?

 

He's retired, and whatever projects he seems to have on his mind seem to be more entrepreneurial in nature, e.g. a Museum of Art history.

 

By his own admission, he never really liked directing movies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Mattris

 

I will not quote whatever essay you tried to write there ("An Essay about Delusions in Contemporary Film History" probably). 

 

Your personal predictions mean fuck all for an objective necessity to do an additional trilogy. There is none. 

They are self contained movies with self contained stories, not based on any source material, therefore, the fact that there are some cash grabbing irrelevant comic and novel spinoffs means squat. 

 

Maybe you aren't familiar with the box office numbers, interest in these plastic, artificially bred Star Wars bastardizations is going under like a bag of shite.

 

You still pretending they set out to achieve any big picture things in this trilogy, instead of it being a clusterfuck of scattered ideas, and falling for the Disney propaganda hook line and sinker, is high comedy. 

 

The only thing it halfway wanted to achieve, is close the original trilogy, which didn't need closing in the first place. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Mattris, I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. It might blow your mind, but bear with me: stories like Star Wars aren't real life. Yeah, I know, mind-blowing, right?

 

They're stories and therefore they have a beginning, a middle and an end. They don't continue indefinitely like real history. The end of Star Wars is Return of the Jedi. It should never have had a sequel, and yes, the very existence of such a sequel undoes what the previous films and their conclusion were about.

 

Chen, I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. It might blow your mind, but bear with me: the Star Wars stories are meant to reflect real life morals and lessons. Yeah, I know, mind-blowing, right?

 

I never insinuated that the Saga should not have a beginning, a middle and an end. In fact, I stated when the Saga should end: When Palpatine - and all of the Sith - were definitively destroyed. I have also repeatedly told you that the end of the Saga could not be Return of the Jedi. after Prequel Trilogy re-contextualized the events of the Original Trilogy. You still have not addressed this fact. No, the Sequel films do not 'undo what the previous films and their conclusion were about': Life, death, love, and loss. Why can't you accept this?

 

10 hours ago, gkgyver said:

I will not quote whatever essay you tried to write there ("An Essay about Delusions in Contemporary Film History" probably). 

 

Your personal predictions mean fuck all for an objective necessity to do an additional trilogy. There is none. 

They are self contained movies with self contained stories, not based on any source material, therefore, the fact that there are some cash grabbing irrelevant comic and novel spinoffs means squat. 

 

Maybe you aren't familiar with the box office numbers, interest in these plastic, artificially bred Star Wars bastardizations is going under like a bag of shite.

 

You still pretending they set out to achieve any big picture things in this trilogy, instead of it being a clusterfuck of scattered ideas, and falling for the Disney propaganda hook line and sinker, is high comedy. 

 

The only thing it halfway wanted to achieve, is close the original trilogy, which didn't need closing in the first place. 

 

Your personal opinions mean fuck all for an objective necessity to proclaim here that an additional trilogy wasn't warranted. There is none. 

 

Before I respond further regarding the (non-film) canon material, I'm curious: How are familiar are you with it? What makes you think those stories were primarily designed for "cash grabbing"?

 

Specifically how are these films "Star Wars bastardizations"? Low 'box office numbers' and 'interest' are irrelevant on this point.

 

Present evidence that they didn't "set out to achieve any big picture things in this trilogy". Does it not make sense that...

 

... Luke would have continued to exhibit rash/mistake-prone behavior leading to his self-exile?

... Leia and Han's son would be severely conflicted, due to the faults and history of his family?

... that the (literally-projected in TFA) baddy Snoke turned out to be a (cloned) puppet of Palpatine, who returned as the villain of the Saga, having "cheated death"?

... Force-awakened Rey (Palpatine) would team-up with the last Skywalker to defeat Emperor Palpatine?

... Luke and Leia would sacrifice themselves for the greater good?

 

How are those "a clusterfuck of scattered ideas"? What Disney propaganda"? I see no "high comedy" here since I have no desire to laugh at you.

 

Read my recent posts, and tell then me: How had the Original Trilogy 'closed' after the events of the Prequel Trilogy?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyone else ever watch Duel and wait for Spielberg to stop holding out on us with the sequel? It ends on an (almost literal) cliffhanger! The protagonist is in the middle of the desert, alone, with who knows how long before he makes home!? How does he get home!? The story is not over! Oh, and the ending of ET? Same thing, does ET make it home!? Where is home!? So many unanswered questions...and the sequel was written decades and decades ago! Come on, Spielberg, you're not fooling anyone, just direct it already or find someone who will, and bring us the conclusion we've been waiting for since the early 80's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Alexcremers said:

It's why some people prefer 2010: The Year We Make Contact. It knows how to give answers while 2001: A Space Odyssey only knew how to ask questions.

 

Prometheus asked questions! Therein lies its genius.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But the Sequel Trilogy was made... legitimately, based on the un-concluded plot-lines of the previous six films.

 

Palpatine made his intention quite clear: Rey was to kill him so that his spirit (containing "all the Sith") could pass into her body. With screaming anger, she killed him by deliberately Forcing the lightning back at him... instead of continuing to absorb it with her light-saber. A fourth trilogy is warranted in which the Sith are definitively destroyed forever.

 

No one here has been able to give me a good reason why it isn't warranted. Jokingly referencing other films doesn't count.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even if there were unresolved plot threads in the original sextet, that doesn't necessarily justify a sequel. The Return of the King technically has plenty of loose threads: what happened to the Easterlings and Southrons? What is Aragorn's rule like? Will the Dwarves reclaim Moria now? What about the Entwives? But since its a roaring climax to the series, there's no point carrying on afterwards, even if there is the technical possibility to do so. To provide audiences with a movie set after that climax will only diminish it.

 

The lesson is: If you plan to keep your film series going, don't provide it with any form of climax until you're ready to call it quits. By my calculations, Star Wars already had two climaxes: Return of the Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker. I really don't want a third helping, thank you very much. I suppose that neither of those two films were particularly good certainly doesn't add to my interest in going around another time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The number of climaxes you calculate, not wanting another trilogy, or not liking some of the films is completely irrelevant. If the Saga-spanning villain has not been definitively defeated (or killed) for good, the Saga is not finished. Period.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Star Wars Episode X: The Search for Soft Power

 

Unlimited power! Palpatine reawakens within Rey years after her decision to live peacefully in seclusion. In response to his threat, Finn and Poe Dameron, now high authorities in the Newest Republic, send their last hope to intercept the threat from the evil Sith Lord. A counsellor....

 

"Palpatine, why did you come back?"

 

"The Dark Side is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."

 

"But _why_ did you come back?"

 

"I became so powerful, that the only thing I became afraid of was losing my power."

 

"I see. And what do you think would happen if you lost this power? Why do you want to hold on to it?"

 

"I...I...I never really thought about it that far." 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The worse thing a franchise could do after 43 years of you investing in it is to be let-down, disappointed

that leaves you kinda stupid and embarrassed about being so excited for it in the first place - JN

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.