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Star Wars Disenchantment


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9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

"The Force is for everyone" as a shorthand to a cry for egalitarianism

Condemnation of animal cruelty

The immorality of arms trade (which, in the situation presented in the film, is a complete straw-man)

Something about class

 

And there is nothing wrong with these statements.

 

For what it's worth, I never felt that I was being lectured when I watched TLJ.  And I still don't see what people like @Mattris claim to be an anti-male, pro-feminism agenda. 

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1 hour ago, Demodex said:

 

And there is nothing wrong with these statements.

 

For what it's worth, I never felt that I was being lectured when I watched TLJ.  And I still don't see what people like @Mattris claim to be an anti-male, pro-feminism agenda. 

 

A pink haired lesbian demands blind obedience by her best pilot solely based on the fact she banged the actual leader, and selfishly keeps everyone in mortal fear because she doesn't trust male leadership and nature, which she never fails to suggest by belittling the main male protagonist, who is completely justified in removing this selfish, weak leader, but in the narrative of the film is the stupid bad guy because he didn't trust the sheer brilliance and unwavering justification of female wisdom and leadership. 

 

Women are to be trusted. At. All. Times. 

 

"We're dying, tell us you have a fucking plan!" 

"Don't mansplain to ME, you typical male with your annoying rationale and impulses!" 

 

And if you know a bit about psychology, the Holdo behavior is a blueprint for the typical cognitive dissonance high school brat, and somewhat bipolar behavior. 

Believes she is justified at all times out of compensation for wounds of the past, and even when she obviously isn't justified, and it is her fault, she still behaves like she's justified, deflects it by claiming the other person is doing HER wrong, causing provocation because she's objectively wrong, and she will keep doing that until the other person inevitably snaps, confirming in her mind she is indeed being wronged. 

 

You know you've all encountered this behavior. 

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Yep. TLJ lectures you for liking cocky male heroes and for thinking that the tone of a movie series should stay somewhat the same after 7 entries. God forbid I want another Star Wars movie that feels like the previous 7!

 

That being said, I can stand a bit of lecturing if the story's any good. Unfortunately, it wasn't.

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14 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

...and if you know a bit about psychology, the Holdo behavior is a blueprint for the typical cognitive dissonance high school brat, and somewhat bipolar behavior. 

Believes she is justified at all times out of compensation for wounds of the past, and even when she obviously isn't justified, and it is her fault, she still behaves like she's justified, deflects it by claiming the other person is doing HER wrong, causing provocation because she's objectively wrong, and she will keep doing that until the other person inevitably snaps, confirming in her mind she is indeed being wronged. 

 

You know you've all encountered this behavior. 

Yeah. You've just described my boss.

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11 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

"The Force is for everyone" as a shorthand to a cry for egalitarianism

Condemnation of animal cruelty

The immorality of arms trade (which, in the situation presented in the film, is a complete straw-man)

Something about class

 

Egalitarianism is an artificial construct that cannot and will not work. It's against human nature. Nothing that is against human nature will ever persist unless introduced and defended by authoritative force, which by definition is against egalitarianism. 

 

Egalitarianism keeps the above average from reaching full potential, and raises the below average into positions they cannot handle. 

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Lol Holdo is basically just the Police Chief from every cop movie ever. “You’re a loose cannon! Hand in your badge”. 

 

I think if she didn’t have blue space hair more people would have accepted that instead of skreeeeing on about it 2.5 years later

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2 hours ago, Demodex said:

 

Yes, it was. 

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think of TLJ as a feminist movie. All the roles could have been the opposite gender and it would be the same story.  Who gives a shit that Holdo was a woman?  Only men that have a problem with women, like @Mattris  

 

We've had this conversation numerous times. No one is changing their mind. 

 

Lol what? Reverse the genders and it would still be a bad story. A bad story is a bad story. And you know what? I don't care that Holdo was a woman or that she was the commander. I didn't like her because she was a bitch and a bad leader (not unlike most of the male police commanders on Fargo). Similarly, I didn't like Rose because she was written as an idiot, though in this movie, the same can be said for Finn, the code breaker guy, and almost all of the Resistance and First Order fighters. If it weren't for Mark Hamill, Adam Driver, John Williams, and whoever the cinematographer was, I wouldn't have a single positive thing to say about this movie.

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5 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Yep. TLJ lectures you for liking cocky male heroes and for thinking that the tone of a movie series should stay somewhat the same after 7 entries. God forbid I want another Star Wars movie that feels like the previous 7!

 

That being said, I can stand a bit of lecturing if the story's any good. Unfortunately, it wasn't.

 

If anything, TLJ if not quite anti-feminist movie, did not quite do a lot for the cause of female protagonists.

 

I actually think Rian Johnson absolutely failed the character of Rey.

 

For me the sequel trilogy has only and only one reason to exist - its actual story is crap - so the only reason for it to exist - is that it is a star wars trilogy with a female lead. JJ and KK started on that path with TFA.

 

But... Johnson in his quest to subvert things undid it all.

 

The protagonist of TLJ is Kylo not Rey. Kylo is a great complex character and involved in all the overarching stories. Rey is caught in a side subplot and intersects with the main story only fleetingly at the end. So Rohnson took the female lead and stuck her away for most of the movie. I think of that such a grievous offense that all of the other female characters do not make up for it.

 

And I think Johnson so changed the balance of the trilogy that he did irreparable damage to the sequel trilogy's reputation as one being with a female protagonist. You can see in Rise of Skywalker, they are desperately trying to course correct and set up Rey as the protagonist but it doesn't quite work.

 

So I actually think rather than helping the cause of female protagonists, TLJ did damage to it. Because of the inordinate focus of that movie on Kyle, the sequel trilogy feels like it is more Kylo's story than Rey's.

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On May 24, 2020 at 8:03 PM, Disco Stu said:

Don’t they know these are [...] for kids?

Exactly.

 

We were actually discussing one of the Mandalorian Gallery episodes recently, specifically an anecdote from Dave Filoni about a conversation he had with George Lucas prior to making The Clone Wars. In brief, Filoni explained how George had reminded him that these stories were made for children, and that the filmmakers' ultimate goal ought to be to inspire them with hope. 

 

Quite honestly, I think it's plain to see that regardless of your impression of the films, the sequel trilogy really seemed to miss this very simple yet crucial point. And that is the greatest failure to me. They just don't have the heart and f

 

Do not quote me and respond with a ten paragraph reply. This is not fuel for your fire. Go call your elderly relatives. Thank you and good day/night! 

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1 hour ago, TheUlyssesian said:

And I think Johnson so changed the balance of the trilogy that he did irreparable damage to the sequel trilogy's reputation as one being with a female protagonist. You can see in Rise of Skywalker, they are desperately trying to course correct and set up Rey as the protagonist but it doesn't quite work.

 

To be fair, I found her more likeable in TROS than in TLJ.

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14 hours ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

the filmmakers' ultimate goal ought to be to inspire them with hope. 

 

Well the fact that TLJ ends with Leia saying they have everything they need and then showing a Force sensitive kid wearing the Resistance ring, I'd say it does inspire hope. 

 

 

15 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

So Rohnson took the female lead and stuck her away for most of the movie.

 

You mean like Luke in ESB?

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Luke struggled with his training and paid the price. Rey was like "I don't need this" and fucked off without consequence. It's shit like this that makes her boring or the filmmakers are scared to do anything interesting to her.

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12 hours ago, Demodex said:

 

And there is nothing wrong with these statements.

 

For what it's worth, I never felt that I was being lectured when I watched TLJ.


It’s not so much that one feel lectured to, it’s that the commentary is either misplaced or bogs down the film. Everything to do with class and animal cruelty is a complete non-sequitor and is the underlying thematic reason why people don’t like the Canto Bight affair.

 

”The Force is for everyone” doesn’t jive with how The Force has been established as an innate capability bestowed upon a portion of the populace. I know it was originally (and as late as Return of the Jedi) still conceived as being something anyone could tap into, but that never made it into the films.

 

The one to do with the arms race is the one that really gets me, because it’s trying to add moral ambiguity to the central conflict where there clearly isn’t room for it. I always find those sorts of things incredibly obtuse, probably because I abhor moral relativism.

 

9 hours ago, Demodex said:

Only men that have a problem with women, like @Mattris


See, this is the kind of talk that’s not helping.

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7 hours ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

Filoni explained how George had reminded him that these stories were made for children, and that the filmmakers' ultimate goal ought to be to inspire them with hope. 

 

Quite honestly, I think it's plain to see that regardless of your impression of the films, the sequel trilogy really seemed to miss this very simple yet crucial point. And that is the greatest failure to me. 

 

 Didn't know you were a child, @The Illustrious Jerry 😄

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11 hours ago, Chen G. said:

See, this is the kind of talk that’s not helping.

 

My only point is that there is no reason to be upset about Holdo being a woman unless you have some kind of problem with women, or some insecurity in your manhood.

 

My friends and I can talk about TLJ without feminism even being mentioned because we either didn't notice it or don't care.  We thought Holdo was a bad ass to sacrifice herself the way she did. 

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You have to admit it’s kind of funny how many women in positions of power are in the military organization that is the Resistance...

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12 hours ago, Chen G. said:

All drama is about inspiring hope; it’s life re-affirming. That’s literally the purpose of drama.

Not always. Have you even seen Man of Steel?

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7 hours ago, Demodex said:

 

My only point is that there is no reason to be upset about Holdo being a woman unless you have some kind of problem with women, or some insecurity in your manhood.

 

My friends and I can talk about TLJ without feminism even being mentioned because we either didn't notice it or don't care.  We thought Holdo was a bad ass to sacrifice herself the way she did. 

 

It would be nice to view these movies through the lens of a more juvenile naivety again.

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7 hours ago, Chen G. said:

You have to admit it’s kind of funny how many women in positions of power are in the military organization that is the Resistance...

And victory is finally had by a man telling a woman what to do.

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@Demodex You're going about this all wrong, buddy. I love these films unironically and I have my problems with them same as everyone I know, but let's enjoy these spicy hot takes and memes from our JWFan community. Let people feel how they want to feel. These films aren't going anywhere just because of the way people feel about them one way or the other.

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19 hours ago, Chen G. said:


It’s not so much that one feel lectured to, it’s that the commentary is either misplaced or bogs down the film. Everything to do with class and animal cruelty is a complete non-sequitor and is the underlying thematic reason why people don’t like the Canto Bight affair.

 

The problem is that the messages often aren't explicit, but subliminal, but they still affect the film and drag it down because the messages are central to it. 

The consequence is that many people don't like the film and can't say why exactly. 

 

The idea that people who question the "women über alles" messages in mainstream and Hollywood are automatically sexists, and if you question the abhorrent rot that is the story of this trilogy, you surely have problems with women in general, is mind-numbingly asinine. 

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The problem with the Canto Bight sequence has nothing to do with the issues it admittedly brushes by without any depth, but how it's such an unwelcome diversion from the other juicier bits of the film. Would've sacrificed all of it to have more time with Luke and Rey.

On 5/25/2020 at 4:24 PM, Chen G. said:


It’s not so much that one feel lectured to, it’s that the commentary is either misplaced or bogs down the film. Everything to do with class and animal cruelty is a complete non-sequitor and is the underlying thematic reason why people don’t like the Canto Bight affair.

 

 

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All subplots in all films can be seen to some extent as a diversion, otherwise they wouldn’t be SUB-plots: they’re by definition secondary to the main plot, but we still have them in movies.

 

But, if they’re any good, they either complement the main plot or contrast with it, narratively or thematically. The Canto Bight sequence doesn’t do this, maybe with the exception of how it helps facilitate the film’s closing shot.

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4 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Did I miss something? Since when is Admiral Holdo a carpet-muncher?

gyver accidentaly saw the porn parody

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/23/2020 at 12:18 AM, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

I believe that without GL's vision, it was no longer really SW.

 

How do you know what exactly is George's vision? If you're a SW fan, why even say something like this?

 

On 5/23/2020 at 12:18 PM, Demodex said:

I dislike TROS because bringing back Palpatine was fucking stupid. 

 

Palpatine spoke of 'achieving the ability to cheat death and 'being afraid to loose power'. You think throwing The Devil of Star Wars down a hole and then exploding his surroundings will destroy him forever? You have the audacity to say that bringing him back was "stupid"? "It's ironic."

 

On 5/23/2020 at 12:36 PM, Chen G. said:

... "The Force belongs to everybody" nonesense and egalitarianism, which just doesn't work because Force powers have been established as exclusive to a certain subset of people.

 

The Rise of Skywalker is just nearly incoherent.

 

I don't mind the absence of George Lucas, I mind that we have three films set after what's supposed to be the final film in the series.

 

What subset of people?

What about The Rise of Skywalker "is just nearly incoherent"?

At the end of VI, the story wasn't complete - not in the slightest.

 

On 5/23/2020 at 7:05 PM, Demodex said:

After the prequels I was thankful for the absence of George Lucas. 

 

Unfortunately we got too many JJ Abrams films. 

 

Unfortunately, the viewers of these JJ Abrams films grossly misunderstood them.

 

On 5/23/2020 at 11:17 PM, gkgyver said:

Nothing about the films is political. It's the underlying social agendas and suggestive narratives that make the films so aggravating, besides them being just superfluous and nonsensical pieces of cinema. 

Once you know it's there, you can't unsee or unknow it, and it sticks out like a sore thumb because it often defies logic and compromises satisfying storytelling. 

The reason why people have a personal aversion to it is that people don't like the feeling of being lectured, and specifically lectured about things they don't need being lectured about. 

If someone starts lecturing you without you asking for it, of course the implication is that you need it because you're stupid and do something wrong. If a movie tells you "girls can do stuff too you know!" of course the implication is you're a caveman. 

And in the case of this fuckery, the movie isn't even implying, key people in this production outright said fans were sexist, misogynist, racist fucks, and better learn from it. 

There's nothing dubious or questionable about it. People producing these films hated their audience. So it's only fair to hate them back. 

 

You're close to getting it, but you still missed the plot... literally. Once you finally get it, you'll understand why Lucasfilm screwed with audience in so many ways. (Hint: Like Palpatine, they have mastered the art of misdirect and distraction.)

 

On 5/24/2020 at 1:51 AM, Þekþiþm said:

I'm not saying explicitly that TLJ is loaded with subliminal political messages. I wouldn't know unless someone pointed them out to me. I'm more observing that ideologue SW fans, who loved it or hated it, responded to it with such intense passionate fervour, and their response seems to be amplified by their strong dislike to towards those who disagree with their view of the film, who also happen to double as their ideological opponents.

 

So basically, TLJ became a culture war battlefield where right wingers were repelled by the film's insistence on integrating real-life hot-button social issues that they'd rather avoid in a space fantasy movie. And left wingers celebrated these ideas in the movie as some kind of one-up on their real-life ideological opponents, and so the chain reaction went on.

 

Divide and conquer, just like Palpatine during the Clone Wars.

 

On 5/24/2020 at 7:50 AM, Chen G. said:

Pointing to The Rise of Skywalker is a low blow: next to that film, Revenge of the Sith looks like a glowing masterpiece for the ages.

 

Summarize The Rise of Skywalker, if you please, @Chen G.

 

On 5/24/2020 at 1:37 PM, Demodex said:

And I still don't see what people like @Mattris claim to be an anti-male, pro-feminism agenda. 

 

All the (speaking-role) men in the film are significantly flawed. The women are in positions of power, often demeaning the men.

 

On 5/24/2020 at 3:28 PM, gkgyver said:

A pink haired lesbian demands blind obedience by her best pilot solely based on the fact she banged the actual leader, and selfishly keeps everyone in mortal fear because she doesn't trust male leadership and nature, which she never fails to suggest by belittling the main male protagonist, who is completely justified in removing this selfish, weak leader, but in the narrative of the film is the stupid bad guy because he didn't trust the sheer brilliance and unwavering justification of female wisdom and leadership. 

 

Women are to be trusted. At. All. Times. 

 

"We're dying, tell us you have a fucking plan!" 

"Don't mansplain to ME, you typical male with your annoying rationale and impulses!" 

 

And if you know a bit about psychology, the Holdo behavior is a blueprint for the typical cognitive dissonance high school brat, and somewhat bipolar behavior. 

Believes she is justified at all times out of compensation for wounds of the past, and even when she obviously isn't justified, and it is her fault, she still behaves like she's justified, deflects it by claiming the other person is doing HER wrong, causing provocation because she's objectively wrong, and she will keep doing that until the other person inevitably snaps, confirming in her mind she is indeed being wronged. 

 

You know you've all encountered this behavior. 

 

From you, perhaps?

Poe disobeyed a direct order from General Leia and was demoted. The plan was kept from him because he was an uncontrollable "flyboy" and loose lips sink ships. And that's exactly what ended up happening.

 

On 5/24/2020 at 3:38 PM, A. A. Ron said:

Yep. TLJ lectures you for liking cocky male heroes and for thinking that the tone of a movie series should stay somewhat the same after 7 entries. God forbid I want another Star Wars movie that feels like the previous 7!

 

That being said, I can stand a bit of lecturing if the story's any good. Unfortunately, it wasn't.

 

All of the Star Wars movie feel different.

What do think was the story of TLJ... or better yet, the Sequel Trilogy as a whole?

 

On 5/24/2020 at 4:52 PM, Demodex said:

I'm sorry, but I don't think of TLJ as a feminist movie. All the roles could have been the opposite gender and it would be the same story.  Who gives a shit that Holdo was a woman?  Only men that have a problem with women, like @Mattris  

 

We've had this conversation numerous times. No one is changing their mind. 

 

I don't have a problem with women, idiot.

Minds can be changed when new information is presented. Trust me, it's coming.

 

On 5/24/2020 at 8:53 PM, TheUlyssesian said:

If anything, TLJ if not quite anti-feminist movie, did not quite do a lot for the cause of female protagonists.

 

I actually think Rian Johnson absolutely failed the character of Rey.

 

For me the sequel trilogy has only and only one reason to exist - its actual story is crap - so the only reason for it to exist - is that it is a star wars trilogy with a female lead. JJ and KK started on that path with TFA.

 

But... Johnson in his quest to subvert things undid it all.

 

The protagonist of TLJ is Kylo not Rey. Kylo is a great complex character and involved in all the overarching stories. Rey is caught in a side subplot and intersects with the main story only fleetingly at the end. So Rohnson took the female lead and stuck her away for most of the movie. I think of that such a grievous offense that all of the other female characters do not make up for it.

 

And I think Johnson so changed the balance of the trilogy that he did irreparable damage to the sequel trilogy's reputation as one being with a female protagonist. You can see in Rise of Skywalker, they are desperately trying to course correct and set up Rey as the protagonist but it doesn't quite work.

 

So I actually think rather than helping the cause of female protagonists, TLJ did damage to it. Because of the inordinate focus of that movie on Kyle, the sequel trilogy feels like it is more Kylo's story than Rey's.

 

The sequel trilogy did have a female lead, along with a male lead.

How was the story "crap"?

How did Johnson undo things? What of the story/characters do you think he derailed? (even though JJ literally said he "didn't really derail anything")

Knowing how the trilogy ended, where do you think the character of Rey was headed?

Besides aligning with the Resistance, how was Rey the protagonist?

 

On 5/24/2020 at 9:34 PM, The Illustrious Jerry said:

We were actually discussing one of the Mandalorian Gallery episodes recently, specifically an anecdote from Dave Filoni about a conversation he had with George Lucas prior to making The Clone Wars. In brief, Filoni explained how George had reminded him that these stories were made for children, and that the filmmakers' ultimate goal ought to be to inspire them with hope. 

 

Quite honestly, I think it's plain to see that regardless of your impression of the films, the sequel trilogy really seemed to miss this very simple yet crucial point. And that is the greatest failure to me.

 

What's not hopeful about the Sequel Trilogy?

 

On 5/24/2020 at 10:17 PM, Þekþiþm said:

Luke struggled with his training and paid the price. Rey was like "I don't need this" and fucked off without consequence. It's shit like this that makes her boring or the filmmakers are scared to do anything interesting to her.

 

Without consequence? Nothing interesting? Did you miss the end of IX?

 

On 5/25/2020 at 8:40 PM, gkgyver said:

The problem is that the messages often aren't explicit, but subliminal, but they still affect the film and drag it down because the messages are central to it. 

The consequence is that many people don't like the film and can't say why exactly. 

 

The idea that people who question the "women über alles" messages in mainstream and Hollywood are automatically sexists, and if you question the abhorrent rot that is the story of this trilogy, you surely have problems with women in general, is mind-numbingly asinine.

 

Most people didn't like the Sequel Trilogy because they thought it was a Hero's Journey done poorly. When in fact, it was not a Hero's Journey at all.

 

As noted by a non-human in the 2015 Star Wars novel, Heir to the Jedi: "Human stupidity is incalculable."

 

On 5/26/2020 at 4:28 AM, Arpy said:

The problem with the Canto Bight sequence has nothing to do with the issues it admittedly brushes by without any depth, but how it's such an unwelcome diversion from the other juicier bits of the film. Would've sacrificed all of it to have more time with Luke and Rey.

 

Agreed. I would have preferred the deleted Luke & Rey scenes be kept in. Everything is in the novelization... even the (purposefully) unwelcome diversions.

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1 hour ago, Mattris said:

All of the Star Wars movie feel different.

What do think was the story of TLJ... or better yet, the Sequel Trilogy as a whole?

 

They do feel different to a certain extent, but TLJ sticks out from the rest like a sore thumb. As to your question, the sequel trilogy doesn't have an overarching story just a bunch of disconnected ideas that don't really go together.

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What disconnected ideas? You perceived no overarching story? Characters did things. Events occurred. The narrative had a beginning, middle, and end.

Go on. A couple of sentences will do. I'll post my summary in response.

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6 hours ago, Mattris said:

At the end of VI, the story wasn't complete - not in the slightest.

 

Is that what you thought in 2005?

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I honestly don't remember. Why does it matter?

Why don't you have a crack at my questions to you, Chen?

Also summarize the Sequel Trilogy, if you please. 2-3 sentences will do.

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