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Star Wars Disenchantment


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I think the three trilogies having been made in three different periods of filmmaking history and by different creatives have definitely had an impact on how they're perceived as one overarching story. I don't agree with @Chen G. that the story ended after Return of the Jedi, but will openly admit the Sequel Trilogy is almost completely expendable without sacrificing anything. 

 

I'm currently rewatching Rebels right now and it does surprisingly well to weave elements of the two original trilogies in a way which feels wholesome, but also with a strange way of making the franchise feel smaller; one of the pitfalls of both these spinoffs and the entire Sequel Trilogy is just how little they have to work with before they fall off the edge of the accepted Star Wars playing board.

 

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3 minutes ago, Arpy said:

I don't agree with @Chen G. that the story ended after Return of the Jedi,

 

That's because it didn't end after Return of the Jedi.

 

It ended with Return of the Jedi:P

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There's your lesson for the day, kids:

If you have the opportunity to throw The Devil down a hole, "Do it!", and all of your problems will go away... because you'll die in the process.

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50 minutes ago, Demodex said:

You like Star Wars again?  After the worst SW film came out?

 

@Mattris' point - and he'll correct me if he's changed his mind since then - is that once we see the inevitable fourth trilogy, we will finally understand The Rise of Skywalker and it will magically become good after the fact.

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10 hours ago, Mattris said:

You perceived no overarching story?

 

I'm sure if you took your meds the overarching story you "perceive" would fade from your mind like a bad dream over your morning cup of coffee. There is NO overarching story in the sequel trilogy.

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12 hours ago, Mattris said:

The sequel trilogy did have a female lead, along with a male lead.

 

Not how it started out. For the 1st film, it had a female protagonist and a male antagonist. The 2nd film moved him into anti-hero territory and the 3rd film straight up moved him into the protagonist column. It didn't seem like an organic evolution to me.

 

12 hours ago, Mattris said:

How was the story "crap"?

 

It brought absolutely nothing to the table. Nothing at all that we didn't see in 1 to 6. It rolled a generic - evil bad guys want to subjugate the universe. Good people will rebel story. This was the story of 4 to 6. To its credit, 1 to 3 actually rolled out quite a different story with a very different emphasis. So it feels necessary and earned. But not 7 to 9. Seems like a pointless rehash of 4 to 6 without adding even a single new element of interest of any kind.

 

12 hours ago, Mattris said:

How did Johnson undo things? What of the story/characters do you think he derailed? (even though JJ literally said he "didn't really derail anything")

 

I think the intention in 7 was clearly to have Snoke be the big bad. Johnson killed him in the middle of the film. I think the set-up in 7 was for Luke to play a major role going forward. Johnson killed him. The intention for Rey was to advance in her abilities in some way. She just gets to levitate some rocks at the end. I think the intention was for Rey to play a major role in the resistance. She gets caught in a side subplot for the entire film - basically providing character development for Kylo. And lastly Johnson dead-ended 8 with no momentum leading into anything.

 

12 hours ago, Mattris said:

Knowing how the trilogy ended, where do you think the character of Rey was headed?

 

To hell for all I care. Couldn't give a fuck.

 

12 hours ago, Mattris said:

Besides aligning with the Resistance, how was Rey the protagonist?

 

I would say, the choice of protagonist is the author's prerogative. But they just told us she is the lead without anything more meaningful. So I might be tempted to say she wasn't but for the marketing and the film-makers telling us so. And because typically the jedi figures are seen as the "leads" in the skywalker saga.

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@Mattris I have a genuine question. After the prequels were made, did you seriously think Palpatine was now still alive at the end of ROTJ?

 

If not, did it only occur to you after TLJ was made?  

 

If the logical conclusion is that Palpatine survived being blown up on the DS2, then you should have been expecting it as soon as they announced the ST was being made. 

 

Palpatine being dead was fine from 1983 to 2019. It was stupid to bring him back.  Trevorrow's script should have been Episode 9. 

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14 hours ago, Arpy said:

I don't agree with @Chen G. that the story ended after Return of the Jedi, but will openly admit the Sequel Trilogy is almost completely expendable without sacrificing anything. 

 

I'm currently rewatching Rebels right now and it does surprisingly well to weave elements of the two original trilogies in a way which feels wholesome, but also with a strange way of making the franchise feel smaller; one of the pitfalls of both these spinoffs and the entire Sequel Trilogy is just how little they have to work with before they fall off the edge of the accepted Star Wars playing board.

 

What additional elements do you think the Sequel Trilogy needed to be 'more accepted on the Star Wars playing board'?

 

14 hours ago, Chen G. said:

That's because it didn't end after Return of the Jedi.

 

It ended with Return of the Jedi:P

 

Episodes VII - IX will always be canon. Period.

 

12 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

@Mattris' point - and he'll correct me if he's changed his mind since then - is that once we see the inevitable fourth trilogy, we will inally understand The Rise of Skywalker and it will magically become good after the fact.

 

Magic won't enter into it. "Good" is an opinion. But facts are facts. From my perspective, it seems that most people factually misinterpreted the film-makers' intent of the Sequel Trilogy. Time will tell. In the meantime, I have more to tell.

 

Before I do, @Chen G. , I want you to answer the questions I posed to you:

 

- What about The Rise of Skywalker "is just nearly incoherent"?

- Please summarize the Sequel Trilogy... in your interpretation, of course.

- Also, you said that The Last Jedi contained a message of "... 'The Force belongs to everybody' nonesense and egalitarianism, which just doesn't work because Force powers have been established as exclusive to a certain subset of people." What subset of people would that be?

 

11 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

I'm sure if you took your meds the overarching story you "perceive" would fade from your mind like a bad dream over your morning cup of coffee. There is NO overarching story in the sequel trilogy.

 

It has a story. Perhaps you can't accept it - or don't want to speak about it - because it's so simple and/or lame. How about this:

 

Rey, Palpatine's granddaughter, struggles with her identity and newly realized Force powers. After conflict with the grandson of Anakin Skywalker, Rey learns of her heritage and kills Emperor Palpatine to save the galaxy. Ben Solo realizes he's been manipulated and is not really a bad guy... and eventually gives his life to save Rey, who takes the Skywalker name. The End.

 

Would that be the story from your perspective?

 

13 hours ago, Demodex said:

@Mattris I'm confused. You like Star Wars again?  After the worst SW film came out?

 

Yes, I think bringing Palpatine back was stupid.  His storyline ended with ROTJ. 

 

Yes, indeed, you are confused, @Demodex. You keep repeating yourself, so why not try explaining why "bringing Palpatine back was stupid."

 

9 hours ago, Demodex said:

@Mattris I have a genuine question. After the prequels were made, did you seriously think Palpatine was now still alive at the end of ROTJ?

 

If not, did it only occur to you after TLJ was made?  

 

If the logical conclusion is that Palpatine survived being blown up on the DS2, then you should have been expecting it as soon as they announced the ST was being made. 

 

Palpatine being dead was fine from 1983 to 2019. It was stupid to bring him back.  Trevorrow's script should have been Episode 9. 

 

It didn't occur to me at the time, mostly because I didn't give Star Wars much thought back then. I have since made the effort to become informed... and now consider myself among the few 'fans' in the world that understand the story - and very purpose - of the Star Wars Saga.

 

Yes.

 

I was unwise then - but no longer.

 

You'd be ok with Rey being a 'nobody' and Kylo/Ben dying un-redeemed... as the end of the Saga? I can assure you that Trevorrow's entire involvement was primarily a distraction from Lucasfilm's real plans.

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1 hour ago, Demodex said:

Because his body blew up with the Death Star. There shouldn't be any coming back from that. 

I don't like that Darth Maul lived after being cut in half and falling down a huge shaft either. 

If they both survived then it's dumb that Qui Gon died. 

Oh, yeah, Dark side blah blah blah. 

Dumb.

 

Star Wars is parable-based story-telling with archetype characters. George Lucas considered Darth Sidious as The Devil of Star Wars. Him being thrown down and exploded was a visual representation of Anakin rejecting the dark side, saving his son in the process. Once cannot kill The Devil from a high fall or explosion - no matter how large.

The Sith feed on revenge, of which they spoke of in the prequels.

"You will find that it is you who are mistaken... about a great many things."

 

1 hour ago, Demodex said:

Secondly, the story doesn't need Palpatine.  Ren and Hux should have been the main villains of Episode 9. 

Palpatine coming back and Hux becoming a spy were both dumb. 

 

The story dictated that Ren and Hux were never the villains. They were just pawns in a great scheme, arranged by Palpatine - just like in the Original and Prequel Trilogies.

Why can't you accept this?

 

1 hour ago, Demodex said:

YES. I very much wanted her to be a nobody.  There was no reason to make her a Palpatine. The movie doesn't explain that she's a daughter of a Palpatine clone. That may have helped make it less dumb than thinking Palpatine had a family we had no idea existed, which is the impression everyone had until the novel came out. 

 

Trevorrow or Rian Johnson should have done Episode 9.  Abrams fucked up. 

 

Rey was 'made a Palpatine' from the very beginning. The 'daughter of a Palpatine clone' detail is irrelevant. Palpatine probably did have a family, but he likely killed them all in his quest for ultimate domination.

 

It's the fans who "fucked up". Abrams and Co. have played everyone as fools.

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2 hours ago, Demodex said:

I doubt it.  Abrams only came up with this after TLJ.  If it had been intended from the beginning it would have been in Trevorrow's script. 

 

Don't tell me that Trevorrow's script was a hoax. Way too much time was spent on it just to distract the fans.  Didn't most of it leak after TROS came out?  What would be the point?

 

I don't know about you but I can agree to disagree because you're nuts. 

 

 

Are you insinuating that Lucasfilm had no plan for the Sequel Trilogy? Or did Rian Johnson screw up JJ and Kasdan's original plan? Where's the proof for either theory?

 

Trevorrow's script could very well have been written by him alone, complete with pre-production art from Lucasfilm. But I can assure you, it was all a hoax. All things considered, it wasn't the only distraction... not by a long shot: Disney/Lucasfilm employees sending rude/dismissive/strange Tweets to concerned fans, Disney/Lucasfilm employees (still) complaining about The Last Jedi, Disney/Lucasfilm not clearing up the fan/media disgust for the Trilogy and "conclusion" of the Saga, etc.

 

Admit it, nothing of this makes sense unless it's all a distraction.  "The Emperor has something special planned" ... and so does Lucasfilm.

May of last year, three Star Wars films were announced to be released in 2022, 2024, 2026. I wonder what they could be? "A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one."

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4 hours ago, Mattris said:

Are you insinuating that Lucasfilm had no plan for the Sequel Trilogy?

 

No.

 

No one is insinuating. People are flat out stating it. And by "people" I don't mean myself or @Demodex, I mean Colin Trevvorow (who said bringing back Palpatine was an idea of Abrams' when he was brought on-board IX) and Chris Terrio, who said they came up with Palpatine's return in story conferences for IX, after Trevvorow was disposed with.

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When Colin Trevorrow said, “Bringing back the Emperor was an idea JJ brought to the table when he came on board. It’s honestly something I never considered. I commend him for it. This was a tough story to unlock, and he found the key,” he was being honest. JJ brought the Emperor to the table when “he came on board” in 2013. Mr. Trevorrow “never considered” the Emperor, Kylo's redemption, or Rey as a Palpatine because he was told not to. I can assure you, Trevorrow's Episode IX was a brainstorming exercise... and a distraction. (Based on what I'll have yet to reveal, you'll see exactly what I mean.)

 

Before my 'revealing' post, please answer the questions I posed to you:

 

- What about The Rise of Skywalker "is just nearly incoherent"?

- Please summarize the Sequel Trilogy... in your interpretation, of course.

- Also, you said that The Last Jedi contained a message of "... 'The Force belongs to everybody' nonesense and egalitarianism, which just doesn't work because Force powers have been established as exclusive to a certain subset of people." What subset of people would that be?

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Just now, Mattris said:

JJ brought the Emperor to the table when “he came on board” in 2013.

 

No, that's your own conjecture.

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So far, your 'evidence of no plan' is limited to published quotes from Lucasfilm employees. Do you have anything else? Do you have any intention of answering my questions?

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I think its evidence enough. I'll always wait for substantial evidence before I would assume disingenuousness on the part of the filmmakers, and until such time, their statements on their own films is the best evidence you'll ever get.

 

Its also how movie trilogies generally work, how Star Wars trilogies have worked in the past, and is inherent in the fact that they've made the films two-years apart and with different filmmakers each. When there is a plan, you can feel it from watching the films: which is not a sense I got watching these films.

 

16 minutes ago, Mattris said:

What about The Rise of Skywalker "is just nearly incoherent"?

 

I like densly-plotted movies and don't usually have a problem following the intricacies of the plot, but The Rise of Skywalker rushed through its own plot so quickly that there were a couple of moments where it took me a while to catch up with the film.

 

I specifically remember not getting what the deal was with the beacon that directed Palpatine's fleet. I was just: "I don't know what's going on anymore, lets just watch the flashing light show" - that's what I call "nearly incoherent."

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No, 'employees saying things' is not "evidence enough", nor is you 'not feeling the plan from watching the films'

 

Moving forward, I'll be referencing primarily the official Star Wars canon material, where they left the real clues to their plan.

 

Different filmmakers each? The trilogy's Executive Producer was one man: JJ Abrams.

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And yet each film had a different director and different writers. Even when Abrams was brought back on-board with IX, it was with a different co-writer to The Force Awakens.

 

If you have a robust plan, you might as well make the films back-to-back (it saves a lot of money) or at least entrust it to one filmmaker. That Lucasfilm didn't tells you everything you need to know about any supposed "plan".

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12 minutes ago, Demodex said:

There is more evidence that there was no plan than there is evidence of there being a plan. 

 

Your conspiracy theories sound pathetic. 

 

Evidence? Like what, specifically? How substantive is that evidence? 'More' of nothing is still nothing.

Your ignorance - combined with so much empty talk - makes you pathetic.

 

A different writer and director for VIII does not mean that the plan wasn't maintained from the beginning.

Having said that, I think it's clear that Disney/Lucasfilm wanted us to think they had no plan. (If they had a plan, they could have cleared this up long ago.)

Many think that Rian Johnson messed up the plan.

Both theories are false, and I can prove it. (The music clues would be enough for me, but I have much more.)

 

Still two answers to go, @Chen G. .

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If it'll cause your conspiracy theories to be a little less cryptic, sure.

 

Quote

Also, you said that The Last Jedi contained a message of "... 'The Force belongs to everybody' nonesense and egalitarianism, which just doesn't work because Force powers have been established as exclusive to a certain subset of people." What subset of people would that be?

 

Those born with the ability to use the Force.

 

Quote

Please summarize the Sequel Trilogy... in your interpretation, of course.

 

Rey, an orphaned Force-user, is thrust into the struggle for the galaxy between the Ressistance and the First Order, led by Han Solo's corrupted son Kylo Ren.

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The Force is a mystical energy field that exists everywhere. It belongs to no one - not the Jedi, the Sith, or only to 'those born with the ability to use it'. Just because one isn't trained to use the Force, doesn't mean it can't be used to some degree. (In that respect, Han Solo may have used the Force while piloting, gambling, etc.)

 

Excellent summary of TFA. While you're at it, could you post short summaries each for TLJ and TROS? I'm genuinely curious.

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5 hours ago, Mattris said:

Just because one isn't trained to use the Force, doesn't mean it can't be used to some degree. (In that respect, Han Solo may have used the Force while piloting, gambling, etc.)

 

I know that was George Lucas' original concept. He even brought it back up during story conferences for Return of the Jedi, so you know it lingered. But the issue wasn't adressed within the films themselves until the prequel trilogy, where using the Force is re-established as something one is born with. Honestly, its one of those instances where Lucas' retconning actually fooled me, and I initially just accepted that the Force is hereditary. Frankly, it fits better with the fairytale nature of Star Wars.

 

15 hours ago, Mattris said:

Episodes VII - IX will always be canon. Period.

 

Not to me. I only watch/consider canon what I like and find that contributes to the story.

 

15 hours ago, Mattris said:

You'd be ok with Rey being a 'nobody' and Kylo/Ben dying un-redeemed... as the end of the Saga?

 

The end of the saga are the victory celebrations on Endor in Return of the Jedi. But as an end for the sequel trilogy? Yes, I would have preferred - and had preferred since 2015 - for Kylo to die unredeemed and for Rey to be a nobody.

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4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Not to me. I only watch/consider canon what I like and find that contributes to the story.

 

The end of the saga are the victory celebrations on Endor in Return of the Jedi.

 

Please summarize TLJ and TROS.

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13 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

Are you insinuating that Lucasfilm had no plan for the Sequel Trilogy? Or did Rian Johnson screw up JJ and Kasdan's original plan? Where's the proof for either theory?

 

He's insinuating DISNEY and overlordesse Cathy had no plan for the sequel trilogy. 

 

Where's the proof for ANY of the insane shit you're posting? 

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My proof is coming, pending @Chen G.'s summaries of TLJ and TROS.

 

When JJ said December 2015:

 

"... what Larry and I did was set up certain key relationships, certain key questions, conflicts. And we knew where certain things were going. We had meetings with Rian and Ram Bergman, the producer of VIII. They were watching dailies when we were shooting our movie. We wanted them to be part of the process, to make the transition to their film as seamless as possible.”

 

... do you think he was lying? All of the characters and events in TFA had no intended meaning or direction? Do you have any proof of your claims?

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20 minutes ago, Mattris said:

hen JJ said December 2015:

 

"... what Larry and I did was set up certain key relationships, certain key questions, conflicts. And we knew where certain things were going. We had meetings with Rian and Ram Bergman, the producer of VIII. They were watching dailies when we were shooting our movie. We wanted them to be part of the process, to make the transition to their film as seamless as possible.”

 

... do you think he was lying?

 

When you end a film the way The Force Awakens ended, you naturally leave a certain vague traejectory for the sequels to follow: In coming out of The Force Awakens in 2015, it didn't require a PhD to guess that Kylo and Rey will cross blades again, that Luke will be reluctant to rejoin the fight for some time, that he would probably die (I think most people expected that to happen in IX rather than in VIII, though), that Rey will become a Jedi, etcetra. That's not "having a plan" - that's just common sense - and to my mind that's what Abrams is talking about here. We also had Terrio say things to that effect.

 

Its like how in 1975, George Lucas said the series "ends with the destruction of the Empire." That's not the result of some incredible storytelling foresight: its just the natural conclusion of the scenario set-up by the original film.

 

30 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Rey was "thrust into the struggle". And then...

 

That's essentially the story on a log-line level, for the whole trilogy.

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9 hours ago, Mattris said:

(In that respect, Han Solo may have used the Force while piloting, gambling, etc.)

 

9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Rey, an orphaned Force-user, is thrust into the struggle for the galaxy between the Ressistance and the First Order, led by Han Solo's corrupted son Kylo Ren.

The fact that this could generally be the logline, with minor tweaks, for each of the three sequel films exposes them for the underbaked cash-grab fan films they are.

 

14 hours ago, Mattris said:

Admit it, nothing of this makes sense unless it's all a distraction.  "The Emperor has something special planned" ... and so does Lucasfilm.

May of last year, three Star Wars films were announced to be released in 2022, 2024, 2026. I wonder what they could be? "A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one."

 

crazy mickey mouse GIF

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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

...Rey will become a Jedi, etcetra.

 

... George Lucas said the series "ends with the destruction of the Empire." That's not the result of some incredible storytelling foresight: its just the natural conclusion of the scenario set-up by the original film.

 

"etcetra"? Hmm. How would you say Emperor Palpatine works into all of this? What happened to him?

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2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

There's nothing in The Force Awakens that intentionally sets-up Palpatine's return.

 

Not even the music clues that I noted? In your view, what happened to Emperor Palpatine at the end of this trilogy?

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Palpatine got fried at the end of the movie.
 

John Williams has written a lot of music for this series. Naturally, within such a long body of work within the same idiom, some similarities are going to crop up. The kind of similarity that Rey’s theme shares with the Emperor is shared with any number of unrelated thematic ideas in the scores.

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