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Star Wars Disenchantment

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On 6/8/2020 at 3:59 AM, Chen G. said:

I'll always wait for substantial evidence before I would assume disingenuousness on the part of the filmmakers, and until such time, their statements on their own films is the best evidence you'll ever get.

 

Its also how movie trilogies generally work, how Star Wars trilogies have worked in the past, and is inherent in the fact that they've made the films two-years apart and with different filmmakers each. When there is a plan, you can feel it from watching the films: which is not a sense I got watching these films.

 

With my "substantial evidence" and conclusions taken into account, can you still not sense their plan for the trilogy? I suggest you watch Episodes I through trIXie again. What else could the filmmakers possibly have had in mind for the mysterious Rey and conflicted Ben Solo? Nothing? You still think they had no planned character arcs or a trajectory for the story? Have a listen:

 

"Kill him. Kill him now. Do it!"

"Kill him, a voice inside her head said."

"I have been every voice you have ever heard inside your head."

"Be with me. Be with me. Be with me. They're not with me."

"You want to kill me. That is what I want. Kill me and my spirit will pass into you."

"Henceforth, you shall be known as Darth... Vader. Rise."

"Rise, my friend."

"Rise! Rise! Rise!" (the voices inside Rey's head said)

 

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

All I'm going to say is no; on all accounts.

 

The specific timing of your refusal to converse with me further indicates otherwise. If you choose not to dispute my latest comments with evidence or reasoning of your own, you either cannot ... or you have chosen now - after two years of debate - to decline to comment further.

 

All things considered, including the diligent effort I made to construct and present my case, the implications of either possibility are quite telling.

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11 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Oh, I don't know. Put me in a cinema, with THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK playing in 70mm and 6-track magnetic, and I'll soon start feeling how I did, in 1980.

Memories don't age.

 

I missed the original run but saw the re-release in the late 90s. At that time I guess they still had reels playing.

 

But I think they had digital sound or am I mistaken?

 

Well, to have seen the OT on the big screen - even the ‘special editions’ - is a great memory.

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What a needless comment, @Docteur Qui. Add yourself to the list of people that have decided to address me condescendingly, but without legitimately disputing my observations and conclusions.

 

For now, I'll free myself from you lot... but will probably come back when Star Wars starts getting interesting... and I'm proven right... once again.

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On 6/11/2020 at 7:42 AM, Mattris said:

The specific timing of your refusal to converse with me further indicates otherwise. If you choose not to dispute my latest comments with evidence or reasoning of your own, you either cannot ... or you have chosen now - after two years of debate - to decline to comment further

 

Or it indicates he's talking to a crazy person and there is no reason to continue.  Your "evidence" is just pure fan theory.

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I think the main issue is that not only is it incredibly naive to assume there is a plan, but that tie-in books were also written with that plan in mind.

 

The books were written under the supervision of a "story group" to ensure they didn't activelly contradict the films, but to say they intentionally planted clues.... Well, besides being incredibly conspiratory, it also means that to "understand" the "genius" of The Rise of Skywalker (man, even with air quotes those words were hard to put in such proximity) you need to be something of a Star Wars scholar, which is a) not a reasonable request from an movie audience and (b) not something a studio (or any responsible filmmaker for that matter) will hinge the success of their venture upon.

 

I wouldn't say its "crazy", but it is moronic, not to mention self-deluding.

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Tolkien himself, with the world he created, would deny any greater all encompassing plans for his opus. 

But the mindless drivel Disney shat out in the form of novels, to go along with the mindless drivel they shat out in the form of movies, those have seeds and secrets only anointed know. 

Yeah, fuck off. 

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12 hours ago, Demodex said:

Or it indicates he's talking to a crazy person and there is no reason to continue.  Your "evidence" is just pure fan theory.

 

Or it indicates he cannot specifically counter my assessment with proof of his own. My 'theory' is comprised of canon evidence - not speculation or assumption - and gives the entire trilogy a reason to exist.

 

12 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I think the main issue is that not only is it incredibly naive to assume there is a plan, but that tie-in books were also written with that plan in mind.

 

The books were written under the supervision of a "story group" to ensure they didn't activelly contradict the films, but to say they intentionally planted clues.... Well, besides being incredibly conspiratory, it also means that to "understand" the "genius" of The Rise of Skywalker (man, even with air quotes those words were hard to put in such proximity) you need to be something of a Star Wars scholar, which is a) not a reasonable request from an movie audience and (b) not something a studio (or any responsible filmmaker for that matter) will hinge the success of their venture upon.

 

I wouldn't say its "crazy", but it is moronic, not to mention self-deluding.

 

The main issue is that not only is it incredibly naive to assume there wasn't a plan for a film trilogy that cost Disney about $2B to produce and market... but that the swath of tie-in books, comics, games, etc. were produced as separate ventures, disconnected from each other and the films. (I can assure you, they are connected.)

 

Anyone thinking that Lucasfilm did not have a plan, allowed Rian Johnson to change the plan, or intended to end the Saga with a dark-side-strong blood Palpatine as the only significant survivor, having killed the Emperor in a moment of rage... is beyond delusional.

 

"incredibly conspiratory"? Isn't that what you wanted, @Chen G.? Please explain the "Kill him, a voice inside her head said." excerpt from The Force Awakens novelization. (It's just one of the dozens I could pull that support my 'theory'... from that book alone.)

 

No, "to understand the genius" of the Sequel Trilogy, one not "need to be something of a Star Wars scholar" - only possess a basic understand of the purpose of the parable-based Saga, including its archetype characters and the narrative of the continuing story. A surface-level (child-like) understanding of the films will probably not be enough to grasp the intricacies of the story... or the realization that it has not yet concluded.

 

At the very end of one of the first canon novels, Palpatine's closest servant informed the Imperial Navy's Grand Admiral that she was among their "best and brightest" had "passed the test". With the Sequel Trilogy, Lucasfilm tested the Star Wars fans. Even though the films alone contained enough clues and information, the fans utterly failed. (The canon material only confirms their plan and strategy within hundreds of excerpts.)

 

It should be clear that Disney/Lucasfilm did not produce this trilogy for maximum profit. But it was successful: tricking the masses into thinking the film-makers had nothing and eventually delivered a stinker of a trilogy to finish the Saga. In bringing back Palpatine, Lucasfilm used his playbook. As Obi-Wan said to Padme in Revenge of the Sith, "He was deceived by a lie. We all were."

 

All my research has led to the conclusion that what's coming next will truly determine the worthiness of this trilogy. I expect it to be another trilogy... that will shock, amaze, and humble the masses, in that those who got this all wrong will be forced to admit - publicly or privately - that they completely misunderstood the Sequel Trilogy and underestimated Lucasfilm. Hopefully, it will have been worth the confusion and strife... and the Saga will be conclude on this highest of notes.

 

Calling my astute assessments "moronic" is quite ironic when you cannot - or choose not to - specifically dispute them with evidence of your own.

 

10 hours ago, gkgyver said:

Tolkien himself, with the world he created, would deny any greater all encompassing plans for his opus. 

But the mindless drivel Disney shat out in the form of novels, to go along with the mindless drivel they shat out in the form of movies, those have seeds and secrets only anointed know. 

Yeah, fuck off. 

 

I'm not "anointed", just eager to learn. And I do not give up so easily. What canon volumes do you consider "mindless drivel"?

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5 hours ago, Mattris said:

Disney/Lucasfilm did not produce this trilogy for maximum profit.

 

You really are in a race against yourself in trying to make the most hilarious claims in JWFan history, right?

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4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

You really are in a race against yourself in trying to make the most hilarious claims in JWFan history, right?

 

Is it moral to make the audio of Saving Private Ryan a surround sound gimmick?

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13 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I think the main issue is that not only is it incredibly naive to assume there is a plan, but that tie-in books were also written with that plan in mind.

 

48 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

You really are in a race against yourself in trying to make the most hilarious claims in JWFan history, right?

 

"It's ironic."

 

@Chen G. I'm still waiting for your explanation of this excerpt from The Force Awakens novelization:

 

"Kill him, a voice inside her head said. It was amorphous, unidentifiable, raw. Pure vengeful emotion. So easy, she told herself. So quick. She recoiled from it. From the dark side." 

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Should I watch The Clone Wars? Or is it just for kids? And by that, I mean “should I watch the last season”, I have no intention to watch the whole thing.

 

Wasn’t that something that came out recently?

 

I have a vague feeling that there was some love for how it ended,

Spoiler

that whole ‘vader-comes-and-spoils-the day”-scene that managed to get some people excited.

 

I think it’s on YouTube, the ending, it looked alright. Can’t really know for sure, I wasn’t really paying attention.

 

So, any good? Thoughts?

 

But I don’t really want to watch it, to be honest. I’m a grown man for crissakes. It’s embarrassing enough that I’ve seen all

the Marvel movies.

 

What about the music though? Good?

 

What about Mando season 2? That’ll be good, right! Right?

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6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

You can wait.

 

After all I've posted lately, your avoidance to my direct questions betrays your position. It's not a good look for you since the obvious explanation for this behavior is that you were unaware of this information and it has stunned you into silence.

 

And you have the audacity to speak to me about self-delusion.

 

It's ok to not know something and to concede that someone might be onto something that you had not considered.

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1 hour ago, mstrox said:

I'll settle for doner kebab

 

We have the best of those around here.

 

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

your avoidance to my direct questions betrays your position. It's not a good look for you since the obvious explanation for this behavior is that you were unaware of this information and it has stunned you into silence.

 

And you have the audacity to speak to me about self-delusion.

 

I want to be quite clear that I never meant any derision by saying this or anything else over the course of this thread. 

 

Nevertheless, I also don't want to mince words. So yes, I do think you are deluding yourself into liking films that - let's be honest - just aren't for you.

 

That's all I'm going to say about this topic.

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On 6/9/2020 at 1:20 PM, Chen G. said:

I'm frankly disappointed. I was looking forward to something much, much more convoluted, twisty and conspiratory than this.

 

However, this: 

May be the funniest sentence posted on JWFan.

 

14 hours ago, Chen G. said:

You really are in a race against yourself in trying to make the most hilarious claims in JWFan history, right?

 

5 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I want to be quite clear that I never meant any derision by saying this or anything else over the course of this thread. 

 

Nevertheless, I also don't want to mince words. So yes, I do think you are deluding yourself into liking films that - let's be honest - just aren't for you.

 

If you "never meant any derision", you would not have been condescending. "let's be honest", your psycho-analytical comments are super hypocritical, as it appears it is you who are avoiding addressing the latest facts and information, as they support my "hilarious claims".

 

These films - and canon material of which you speak but haven't a clue - obviously are 'for me', as I'm one of the few in the world - perhaps the only one - that made sense of them... in a Star Warsy frame of mind, not just in 'You go girl!' or 'It was all about strong female characters. Lame.' frames of mind.

 

You have yet to comment on my recently-posted Star Wars canon excerpts that I shaped into a narrative that brings the Sequel Trilogy into focus. I'm curious to know if you'll ever get around to it. Until you do, I will assume you're dumbfounded by my observations and conclusions. Unfortunately, your pride has severely hindered the progress we might make.

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Oh come on, that’s just humour; don’t conflate that with derision, which I never intended for.

 

That’s all I had to say; I‘ve said my piece on the actual subject of this thread. I just wanted it clarified that I didn’t mean to be condescending.

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As soon as you become aware of facts that do not support your narrative, you decide to leave... and without commenting but to say that 'You are wrong, but I'm not going to address the canon excerpts.'

 

A year ago, I recall that you failed to congratulate me on being the only member here correctly predicting Emperor Palpatine's return, when at the time, many others did just that.

 

After two years of on-off debate, this behavior is not very gentlemanly of you. But I do appreciate you clarifying the intention/tone of your comments.

 

If (Once) I'm proven correct in my specific assessments and theories, I would appreciate your acknowledgement, @Chen G..

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Rey is not Palpatine. 

There is not going to be an Episode 10. 

The EU is not going to continue with Rey being Palpatine. 

 

 

Once I'm proven correct I would appreciate your acknowledgement. 

 

 

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On 6/15/2020 at 11:53 AM, rough cut said:

Should I watch The Clone Wars? Or is it just for kids? And by that, I mean “should I watch the last season”, I have no intention to watch the whole thing.

 

Wasn’t that something that came out recently?

 

I have a vague feeling that there was some love for how it ended,

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I think it’s on YouTube, the ending, it looked alright. Can’t really know for sure, I wasn’t really paying attention.

 

So, any good? Thoughts?

 

But I don’t really want to watch it, to be honest. I’m a grown man for crissakes. It’s embarrassing enough that I’ve seen all

the Marvel movies.

 

What about the music though? Good?

 

What about Mando season 2? That’ll be good, right! Right?

 

IMO there is never a cut-off point for enjoying any sort of media. I like to watch all kinds of movies across the spectrum and I don't feel like I've outgrown any of them in the least, especially if they tell a fun story.

 

Speaking of, I think The Clone Wars was pretty great. Like all television shows there are highs and lows, but the highs are very high and the lows are pretty low--and I say that as someone who even appreciates the low. It doesn't take much for me to enjoy anything. I tend not to bounce things around in my head too much while I'm watching and just enjoy it while I can.

 

 

...oh whoops I forgot what thread I was in. Uhh, Star Wars is the worst.

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On 6/16/2020 at 5:33 PM, gkgyver said:

Stop saying facts. 

 

FACTS:

 

Noted in all forms of the canon material, Palpatine arranged a multi-faceted Contingency plan in case of his death.

- After Rey disabled Kylo Ren on Starkiller Base, she heard "a voice inside her head" say, Kill him.

- Palpatine said those exact words to Anakin when ordering him to execute Count Dooku.

- In multiple voices, Palpatine said to Kylo, "I have been every voice you have ever heard inside your head."

- Rey said the past Jedi were "not with" her... and had never been, even though she had been trying to reach them.

- At the end of The Rise of Skywalker, Rey heard voices inside her head conclude their statements with Palpatine's catch word: "Rise."

 

My conclusions and theories are fact-based, derived from canon excerpts and themes/lines from the films.

 

Contradiction, select quotes from Disney/Lucasfilm employees, and claims that 'They wouldn't do that!' are not valid arguments.

 

@gkgyver I notice you're in a habit of demeaning me, failing to acknowledge my sound reasoning whilst avoiding answering my questions. What canon volumes do you consider "mindless drivel"? How do my theories not add up?

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A parting gift to the Disenchantment thread:

 

@Mattris immediately after The Last Jedi:

 

On 5/30/2018 at 2:43 AM, Mattris said:

It's Kathleen Kennedy and her team who should be embarrassed. The Force Awakens was lazily written as a copy of A New Hope. Rogue One had production issues and had major re-shoots. Rian Johnson made The Last Jedi to appease Kathleen Kennedy's feminist/SJW agenda and to spit in the face of the fans. The original directors of Solo were fired late in production. The original director/writer of Episode 9 was replaced. And finally, numerous Lucasfilm employees have called complaining fans, sexist and racist on Twitter.

 

Mattris in denial after The Last Jedi:

 

On 10/1/2019 at 9:43 AM, Mattris said:

Having pieced together the clues and cryptic language in the Star Wars canon material and films (including the first 6 Episodes), cracking their code in the process, I am no longer "pissed off" with the TFA and TLJ. I can't say I appreciate Disney/Lucasfilm's deviousness and dismissive / rude behavior, but I realize it has been part of their epic distraction / trolling job.

 

From the very beginning, it was known 'mystery box' writer/producer/director JJ Abrams' plan to misdirect the masses into thinking he simply remade ANH and had little-to-no involvement with TLJ. They are making it up as they go! This is utter nonsense, as the canon material proves otherwise.

 

Mattris immediately after The Rise of Skywalker:

 

On 12/22/2019 at 1:51 AM, Mattris said:

No,The Rise of Skywalker did not live up to my expectation... not in the slightest. I thought the film was incredibly convoluted and ultimately, underwhelming... certainly not a fitting installment to mark the end of the Saga. I doubt I will ever watch it again.

 

Mattris in denial after The Rise of Skywalker:

 

On 6/9/2020 at 2:42 PM, Mattris said:

It seems nearly everyone in the world missed what happened right in front of their faces due to complete and utter underestimation of JJ Abrams, Rian Johnson, Lucasfilm, and John Williams.

 

The makers of these movies have tricked the masses.

 

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As people learn new information, new perspectives and conclusions can be formed. In the case of the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy and its surrounding controversy, I did just that... and now consider myself an expert.

 

After I (clearly) dumbfounded you with my latest Star Wars canon-based theories, you avoided commenting on them... but just to say that I was 'wrong'.

 

The obviously explanation for your (lack of a) response is that there is nothing you can say that doesn't (further) prove that I am in another league of Star Wars knowledge than you... and am most likely right about everything regarding the Star Wars topics we have discussed at length... and that you are most likely wrong.

 

If you had a specific counter-perspective, surely you would have produced it in your farewell post. But you only managed to comb through the thread to pick out excerpts of my contrasting, time-distant posts in a pathetic attempt to discredit me.

 

If I am eventually proven to have been correct in my assessments, @Chen G., I hope you'll return to this thread... to prove me wrong in this prediction:

 

Chen G. was too prideful to acknowledge that he was wrong about Star Wars and John Williams' contributions to the Saga... and Mattris was right.

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9 minutes ago, Mattris said:

But you only managed to comb through the thread to pick out excerpts of my contrasting, time-distant posts in a pathetic attempt to discredit me.

 

I'm not trying to discredit anyone. Just pointing something out.

 

9 minutes ago, Mattris said:

I am in another league of Star Wars knowledge than you.

 

I don't doubt you are. My only interest in Star Wars (besides the fact that I like a handful of the movies the series had produced) stems from my interest in serialized filmmaking.

 

That doesn't give your arguments more weight, though.

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Not really. Just pointed out a couple of things; and quite briefly, too.

 

I'm not going to be drawn into some long argument with Mattris ever again, that's for sure. At this point, its the equivalent of flogging the tombstone of a dead horse.

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9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

A parting gift to the Disenchantment thread:

 

Nope, you returned 2 hours later. "Just pointing something out."

 

If your compilation of my contrasting reactions/opinions/assessments was not an attempt to diminish my current position, what was the purpose of that post?

 

7 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I don't doubt you are. .....   That doesn't give your arguments more weight, though.

 

Utilizing canon and film excerpts to construct a narrative that gives the Sequel Trilogy a very reason to exist  does give my arguments more weight. To suggest otherwise - without a specific counterargument - shows your level of ignorance and pride.

 

Consistent with the methods of The Devil, Emperor Palpatine was the voices in the characters' heads. Although these individuals had free will, he preyed on their fears and weaknesses and used them as chess pieces in his quest to regain power... and made it appear that he had been defeated. But as Obi-Wan said, "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."


In this Saga, Sheev Palpatine is The Phantom Menace. And at the end of trIXie, he won.

 

Clearly, it is you who are "in denial" and "mistaken... about a great many things."

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9 hours ago, Mattris said:

As people learn new information, new perspectives and conclusions can be formed. In the case of the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy and its surrounding controversy, I did just that... and now consider myself an expert.

@Chen G.

 

That's the single most narcissistic bullshit I've read on this board. 

 

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14 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

That's the single most narcissistic bullshit I've read on this board. 

 

And yet you have failed to substantively dispute me.

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Your avatar says, "Think different."

 

Yet you keep returning to belittle me regarding my 'outside the box' Star Wars assessments, continually proving that you have nothing of substance to contribute.

 

"It's ironic."

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GK, personal attacks are not allowed on this forum - keep it up and you get a ban

 

And if you have no interest in what is being discussed in this thread, simply stay out of it instead of posting in it.  Thank you.

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There you go, just as expected, Mr. Buzzkill doesn't recognize even the most famous Seinfeld quotes. 

Maybe I should put them in parentheses... 

"I'm sooooorry...." 

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2 hours ago, gkgyver said:

There you go, just as expected, Mr. Buzzkill doesn't recognize even the most famous Seinfeld quotes. 

Maybe I should put them in parentheses... 

"I'm sooooorry...." 

I am sure it is just a coincidence.  

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I don't care what you are quoting, these posts:

 

On 6/29/2020 at 6:47 PM, gkgyver said:

 

That's the single most narcissistic bullshit I've read on this board. 

 

 

On 6/29/2020 at 8:19 PM, gkgyver said:

Shouldn't you be out on a ledge somewhere? 

 

Are not what we want to have on JWFan. Be polite when debating with fellow members about a topic, or just don't post about the topic at all. Simple as that. There are other places on the internet you can go to be mean. 

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