Star Wars Disenchantment

[Chen G. 3,948]

I...I’ve got nothing.

[SilverTrumpet 638]

Someone just reminded me Star Wars existed the other day and it made me sad again.

 

There's my contribution.

[Demodex 557]

Rey was not a Palpatine until very late in the production of Episode 9. She was almost a Kenobi. The whole idea that LFL planned on her being a Palpatine from the beginning contradicts what Daisy Ridley has said. Unless she's lying to us. 

 

I still refuse to believe she's coming back in Episode 10 as Palpatine. 

 

[Chen G. 3,948]

I refuse to believe, after the pathetic filmmaking of Episode IX, that there would ever be an Episode X. At any rate, there shouldn't be one; there shouldn't have even been an Episode VII.

[PuerAzaelis 3]

This thread is funny

 

https://theboardofeducation.bandcamp.com/track/why-is-dad-so-mad

 

 

[Mattris 416]

On 10/2/2020 at 2:13 PM, Demodex said:

Rey was not a Palpatine until very late in the production of Episode 9. She was almost a Kenobi. The whole idea that LFL planned on her being a Palpatine from the beginning contradicts what Daisy Ridley has said. Unless she's lying to us. 

 

I still refuse to believe she's coming back in Episode 10 as Palpatine. 

 

Please explain: "Kill him, a voice in her head said." from The Force Awakens novelization.

 

Or how about the fact that Rey's Theme opens with rising/falling minor thirds, just like The Emperor's Theme? Kylo's entrance motif also starts with five notes in a row from The Emperor's Theme. Is this a coincidence?

 

It's clear to me: Daisy Ridley is either lying to us... or doesn't know the truth because she was lied to. (The former is much more likely.)

 

 

On 10/2/2020 at 2:28 PM, Chen G. said:

I refuse to believe, after the pathetic filmmaking of Episode IX, that there would ever be an Episode X. At any rate, there shouldn't be one; there shouldn't have even been an Episode VII.

 

'Physically kill the one who threatens the one(s) you love in order to attain redemption.'

 

Do you think that is the intended take-away of the Saga? (Keep in mind that Emperor Palpatine wanted Luke to kill him in hatred.)

[Demodex 557]

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

Please explain: "Kill him, a voice in her head said." from The Force Awakens novelization.

 

Or how about the fact that Rey's Theme opens with rising/falling minor thirds, just like The Emperor's Theme? Kylo's entrance motif also starts with five notes in a row from The Emperor's Theme. Is this a coincidence?

 

She has to be a Palpatine in order to hear voices through the Force?  Bullshit. 

 

Until John Williams comes out and says they told him about Rey's parentage when he scored Episode 7, then yes, it's a coincidence.  What does Kylo's theme have to do with Rey being a Palpatine?  Nothing at all. 

[GerateWohl 4,349]

On 10/2/2020 at 9:28 PM, Chen G. said:

I refuse to believe, after the pathetic filmmaking of Episode IX, that there would ever be an Episode X. At any rate, there shouldn't be one; there shouldn't have even been an Episode VII.

There is only one good in the sequels and that is having another trilogy of star wars scores from John Williams.

 

I see it with "The Mandalorian". In Rogue One and Solo the composers somehow tried to stick to the musical tradition of Star Wars. At the Mandalorian the producers break up with that tradition the first time. And yes, the score is appropriate and contemporary, but there is not really that what I would call musical story telling and sticking to a certain musical tradition and quality. And that is not really working for me. 

 

In interviews about the music concept for Star Wars Williams said that he wanted to give the audiance something familiar in this other world. But that is only half of the story to me. And I know that this is highly subjective. But to me the music of Star Wars was familiar in sound but apart from that completly out of this world.

Yes, ok. I was musically not that experienced at that time, but anyway. That is my personal impression. And the music of the Mandalorian is often too familiar. The guitar music in the 4th episode destroyed the illusion instead of supporting it.

[Mattris 416]

On 09/10/2020 at 2:54 AM, Demodex said:

Until John Williams comes out and says they told him about Rey's parentage when he scored Episode 7, then yes, it's a coincidence.  What does Kylo's theme have to do with Rey being a Palpatine?  Nothing at all. 

 

Both of the main characters' themes have direct musical connections to The Emperor's Theme. This fact  is not contingent on Rey's lineage. You seriously think, after what was directly revealed in Episode IX (that Emperor Palpatine had 'been every voice in Kylo's head' and that Rey was a Palpatine) that both of the character themes' connections to The Emperor's Theme are a complete coincidence?

 

A statement from John Williams on this matter is not needed to put this together. These (main) character themes were written for savvy, musical-minded people to notice the connection to the villain of the Saga. Remember Anakin's Theme  containing Darth Vader's Theme?  The fact that musical connections align with the characters and through-line narrative should not be in question... or come as a shock. (Pun intended.)

 

Assuming that the film-makers did not know that Rey was the granddaughter of Palpatine from the beginning - to compliment Ben Solo's status as the grandson of Darth Vader - takes incredible levels of naivete. If you need further convincing...

 

In the infamous Charlie Rose interview, George Lucas said that the Saga is "all about generations. And it's about the issues of father and sons and grandfathers. It's a family soap opera."

 

[Arpy 4,145]

I don't know how to plot the course of this thread which moved from one extreme to another, from vitriol against the ST to passionately defending it and I can't jump in anymore to combat what's being said because it's shifted everytime I get near it. 

[Score 770]

On 10/2/2020 at 9:28 PM, Chen G. said:

there shouldn't have even been an Episode VII.

 

At least, we got a trilogy of beautiful scores! This justifies the existence of the sequel trilogy. It's probably the only thing that does. 

[Chen G. 3,948]

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

In the infamous Charlie Rose interview, George Lucas said that the Saga is "all about generations. And it's about the issues of father and sons and grandfathers. It's a family soap opera."

 

GEORGE LUCAS IS TALKING BULLSHIT.

 

Just one example from that interview that I don't think I've heard Lucas say before:

 

Quote

I took the first act [of the story of the trilogy] but then the first act didn't really work, so I said "okay, what I'm gonna have  to do is take the ending of the third film and put it on the first film..."

 

So basically what he's saying here is that the reason both Star Wars and Return of the Jedi end with blowing a Death Star is because he pasted from Return of the Jedi to Star Wars, rather than the other way around.

 

Bollocks.

 

What's more, by the time of this interview Lucas was already effectivelly retired. So why keep up with these blatant lies? You don't have to worry about bad publicity anymore.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

Rey's theme has elements of most of the major character's themes; the Emperor's theme, Darth Vader's theme, the Force theme. It was done so because the fact is that no one knew who Rey was going to end up being, so to cover their asses they clearly asked John to write Rey's theme around other familiar themes. They did not think that far ahead, and they did not know for sure that Palpatine would be involved until they started working on Episode 9. To assume that they had a solid plan in place after all the back-and-forth that happened throughout the trilogy, you'd have to be absolutely insane.

[Mattris 416]

@Manakin Skywalker My evidence indicating the logical (and predictable) return of Emperor Palpatine has nothing to do with 'assumption'. I'm citing musical and official canon evidence.

 

Considering that the Emperor revealed to Kylo Ren: "I have been every voice you have ever heard inside your head." in Episode IX, do you have an explanation for the "Kill him, a voice in her head said." excerpt from The Force Awakens novelization?

 

And how about the fact that Kylo's motif starts with five notes in a row from The Emperor's Theme?

 

 

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

GEORGE LUCAS IS TALKING BULLSHIT.

 

If you believe that, you can't in good faith trust ANY STATEMENT made by the Star Wars film-makers, including the employees of Disney and Lucasfilm. You can only use canon evidence and facts to make your point. In that regard, I suspect this is the case:

 

On 10/2/2020 at 8:27 AM, Chen G. said:

I...I’ve got nothing.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

What's more, by the time of this interview Lucas was already effectivelly retired. So why keep up with these blatant lies? You don't have to worry about bad publicity anymore.

 

Good point. Why did Lucas conduct that interview? He sure said a lot, and at times, made it sound like he did not like the direction* that the new owners had taken with Star Wars, enough to call them "white slavers". Why in the world would he have said something so sensational and aggressive?

 

* even though the Sequel Trilogy's events and character arcs ended up being 100% consistent with the themes and narrative established by the previous episodes of the Saga

[Chen G. 3,948]

3 hours ago, Mattris said:

If you believe that, you can't in good faith trust ANY STATEMENT made by the Star Wars film-makers, including the employees of Disney and Lucasfilm.

 

No, only George Lucas, specifically. He's a big *insert offensive but anatomically-correct term here* liar.

 

I don't believe a word out of his mouth.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

5 hours ago, Mattris said:

do you have an explanation for the "Kill him, a voice in her head said." excerpt from The Force Awakens novelization?

Yes. The fact that "kill him" is a normal sentence that literally any human being can say. 

 

Also, that was her inner-monologue. It was her own darkness telling her to kill him, which she resisted.

 

It's blatantly obvious they had no idea what direction they were going in. Palpatine obviously was always one of their potential ideas (just like Rey potentially being related to Kenobi). They had a series of ideas they could pull from, but nothing was set in stone until they wrote the TROS screenplay. That's a known FACT.

[Chen G. 3,948]

19 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

That's a known FACT.

 

Yeah, there's something you need to know about @Mattris and his grasp of the term "fact"...

 

No offense, Mattris.

[SilverTrumpet 638]

10 hours ago, Mattris said:

Remember Anakin's Theme containing Darth Vader's Theme? The fact that musical connections align with the characters and through-line narrative should not be in question... or come as a shock.

 

 

Just because you come up with something later on that connects to something from before doesn't mean they planned it out the whole time. 

 

If Rey was always meant to be a Palpatine, why did Anakin's lightsaber reach out to her and try to inspire her to get involved in the goings on in the universe? Why did Han act like he knew her and why were they hinting that she had a lot of similarities to Han? Why does she look a lot like Natalie Portman? I'm still convinced she was Han and Leia's daughter until they took that out in editing in TFA.

 

As for the "Kill him". That wasn't even in the movie, and writing it in the novel? That was obviously just meant to be signify the dark side tempting her when she's angry. 

 

This whole conversation is so tired. The Disney Star Wars movies were unplanned, arrogantly made thrown together crap. Pretending there's this great, bigger plan is just not supported by reality at all. 

[Chen G. 3,948]

10 minutes ago, SilverTrumpet said:

The Disney Star Wars movies were unplanned, arrogantly made thrown together crap.

 

Hang on to that thought while I call George "now Leia is Luke's sister 'cause reasons" Lucas, and his twin, George "what Sifo-Dyas payoff?" Lucas.

 

The only reason you lot are even expecting for there to be a plan is because Lucas conditioned you to believe there is one, where in fact there NEVER was. Its incredibly naive.

[SilverTrumpet 638]

1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

 

Hang on to that thought while I call George "now Leia is Luke's sister 'cause reasons" Lucas, and his twin, George "what Sifo-Dyas payoff?" Lucas.

 

But those movies didn't reverse the characterization and then unceremoniously kill off the main characters and hyping their return after more than 30 years and leave us with a bunch of randos we don't care about and try to last minute throw in halfassed plot twists to pretend they matter...and then nothing happens at all anyway.

 

Return of the Jedi had nowhere to go as it is for a sequel and The Rise of Skywalker managed to basically just replace the ending of ROTJ only Luke, Han, and Leia are sad and dead now.

 

But don't worry, there'll definitely be an Episode X eventually.

[Chen G. 3,948]

2 minutes ago, SilverTrumpet said:

The Rise of Skywalker managed to basically just replace the ending of ROTJ only Luke, Han, and Leia are sad and dead now.

 

Was there a way to do a sequel trilogy that doesn't soil Return of the Jedi?

 

No, there wasn't.

[SilverTrumpet 638]

2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Was there a way to do a sequel trilogy that doesn't soil Return of the Jedi?

 

No, there wasn't.

 

Don't reverse the accomplishments of the movie?

 

Have a new thing happen?

 

Not kill the main characters?

 

The Thrawn books didn't do it. That's why people love those, flaws and all. They built on the movies.

[Chen G. 3,948]

3 minutes ago, SilverTrumpet said:

Don't reverse the accomplishments of the movie?

 

If the Empire wasn't defeated, than the accomplishments of the movie were already reversed. Dunno why the buck stops at Palpatine.

 

The accomplishes of the previous films were reversed within the first few words of The Force Awakens' text-crawl; they had to be. There is no other way to make a sequel trilogy.

[Mattris 416]

On 09/10/2020 at 1:44 PM, Manakin Skywalker said:

Yes. The fact that "kill him" is a normal sentence that literally any human being can say. 

 

Also, that was her inner-monologue. It was her own darkness telling her to kill him, which she resisted.

 

It's blatantly obvious they had no idea what direction they were going in. Palpatine obviously was always one of their potential ideas (just like Rey potentially being related to Kenobi). They had a series of ideas they could pull from, but nothing was set in stone until they wrote the TROS screenplay. That's a known FACT.

 

A more expanded quote from the TFA novelization:

 

"One downward cut, she saw. One quick, final strike, and she could kill him. The landing lights of a shuttle appeared in the distance, coming over the trees in her direction. She had to make a decision, now.

Kill him, a voice inside her head said. It was amorphous, unidentifiable, raw. Pure vengeful emotion. So easy, she told herself. So quick. She recoiled from it. From the dark side."

 

In a 'like poetry, it rhymes' parable, "Kill him." is not a 'normal sentence that literally any human being can say'. Palpatine said those very words to Anakin when ordering him to execute Count Dooku. Once again, Emperor Palpatine revealed to Kylo in Episode IX: "I have been every voice you have ever heard inside your head."

 

This “a voice inside her head said” quote is strong evidence that Palpatine had also been communicating with Rey. Combined with all of the evidence that points to Rey being a Palpatine from the beginning (The Emperor's Theme similarities within her theme, her lightsaber form, dark side tendencies, etc.) branding this element a 'theory', at this point, is simply illogical.

 

No (factual) evidence indicates other 'potential ideas like Rey potentially being related to Kenobi'. Statements from employees are not facts.

 

You avoided addressing the fact that Kylo's motif starts with five notes in a row from The Emperor's Theme. While you're at it why don't you explain why The Emperor and his direct subordinate (Galius Rax) were featured in the Aftermath  trilogy of novels, the first of which was released months before TFA, and the last released 10 months before TLJ? In these stories, Palpatine's Contingency plans included a Sith ceremony on Jakku of all places. In it, it was revealed that Palpatine's acolytes intended to "revivify him, bringing his soul back to flesh anew."

 

On 09/10/2020 at 2:02 PM, Chen G. said:

Yeah, there's something you need to know about @Mattris and his grasp of the term "fact"...

 

No offense, Mattris.

 

What have I recently stated that isn't a fact? Shall we talk about your 'facts'... or your record of Star Wars predictions? I predicted Palpatine's return and that Palpatine intended to move his Sith spirit into Rey's body. What have you gotten right?

[SilverTrumpet 638]

Just now, Chen G. said:

 

If the Empire wasn't defeated, than the accomplishments of the movie were already reversed. Dunno why the buck stops at Palpatine.

 

The accomplishes of the previous films were reversed within the first few words of The Force Awakens' text-crawl. There is no other way to make a sequel trilogy.

 

The Force Awakens always seemed like a small band of Imperial radicals who still couldn't accept defeat which would eventually spawn into something else. We knew there were still little pockets of imperials after ROTJ because the Emperor doesn't just die and everyone gives up like Battle Droids. All of a sudden at the end of the movie they have a gigantic army and a massive super weapon and twelve minutes later they rule the galaxy again. Complete nonsense.

 

Palpatine is a big deal because Darth Vader DIED to kill him and save his son. 

3 minutes ago, Mattris said:

No (factual) evidence indicates other 'potential ideas like Rey potentially being related to Kenobi'. Statements from employees are not facts.

 

Ewan McGreggor literally recorded a line for The Force Awakens as Obi-Wan talking to Rey.

[Chen G. 3,948]

5 minutes ago, SilverTrumpet said:

We knew there were still little pockets of imperials after ROTJ because the Emperor doesn't just die and everyone gives up.

 

That's E-X-A-C-T-L-Y what happens at the end of Return of the Jedi: its a fairytale ending for a space fairytale of a film series. It was implicit in the original cut, and made explicit in the Special Edition.

 

If the Empire survived, no matter under what guise and scale, it nullifies Return of the Jedi.

 

It is unavoidable.

[SilverTrumpet 638]

People celebrating that the Emperor was killed doesn't mean pockets of Imperial loyalists don't exist. 

[Chen G. 3,948]

Even if they did, there's no need to make a movie out of it. At the end of The Return of the King, Tolkien makes it clear that Gondor would have continuing wars with the Easterlings and Southrons who were previously under Sauron's influence. And yet, he never wrote a sequel based on that, because it would just make the climactic end of The Return of the King feel that much smaller and less momentous.

 

Doesn't Loge survive Gotterdamerung? By Star Wars fans' logic, Wagner should have written a sequel tetralogy!

[SilverTrumpet 638]

I am in no way advocating for the Star Wars "sequels". They're fan films, as far as I'm concerned.  

[Chen G. 3,948]

So what are you complaining about? Either you don't accept the concept of a sequel trilogy from the outset, in which case why bitch and moan about the story choices they make, to begin with...or you do accept these movies in principle, in which case getting over the fact that the previous films were reduced to footnotes is a given.

[SilverTrumpet 638]

You can have a sequel trilogy if you're creative enough. The people who made this so called sequel trilogy aren't creative or apparently talented at all either.

[Chen G. 3,948]

Just now, SilverTrumpet said:

You can have a sequel trilogy if you're creative enough.

 

How?

[SilverTrumpet 638]

Just now, Chen G. said:

 

How?

 

I mean, there's are a million ways of doing it. Most of the time a story like that has to do with reflection on the previous events and forging a better path forward. You can come up with any number of ideas from there.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

25 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

@Manakin Skywalker You avoided addressing the fact that Kylo's motif starts with five notes in a row from The Emperor's Theme.

 

Because it doesn't. Those notes are nowhere near each other on a piano. I don't know what imaginary theme you're thinking of.

[Chen G. 3,948]

3 minutes ago, SilverTrumpet said:

Most of the time a story like that has to do with reflection on the previous events and forging a better path forward.

 

What you're describing is a denoument.

 

The problem is, the denoument is generally just a short coda. You can't make an entire film - much less a whole trilogy - out of a denoument. You don't see TV shows where the penultimate episode is the climax and the final episode is all pure denoument, either.

 

This is all the more true in an action-adventure series like this one.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Chen, just because you, Kennedy, Abrams and Johnson lack the imagination to make good Star Wars sequel doesn't mean it's impossible.

[Chen G. 3,948]

Pray tell, then; how would you have made one?

[gkgyver 1,645]

Oh my god this discussion is STILL GOING ON. 

 

By the way, the main reason why this whole trilogy is irrelevant bullshit is that Episode VII didn't even BOTHER to try explain how between ROTJ and TFA, the whole galaxy could be overthrown by a Sith empire again. 

TFA was one of the most aggravating movie experiences I ever had, because it rips open dozens of plot holes and begs a hundred questions that never ever get answered. 

[Arpy 4,145]

@Chen G. Did you watch The Clone Wars?

39 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

Episode VII didn't even BOTHER to try explain how between ROTJ and TFA, the whole galaxy could be overthrown by a Sith empire again. 

 

Yeah, that was insane. Most of the explanations are given in the Visual Dictionary. What a joke!

 

I kinda wish they would've built up the First Order more. My idea was to have the First Order as a legion of White Supremacist, Nazi-types who felt disenfranchised after the defeat of the old Empire - still clinging onto what gave them purpose. It could've been a way to build Finn's character as someone who is slowly deconverting from the Order, trying to leave this hate-group etc. 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

18 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

In interviews about the music concept for Star Wars Williams said that he wanted to give the audiance something familiar in this other world. But that is only half of the story to me. And I know that this is highly subjective. But to me the music of Star Wars was familiar in sound but apart from that completly out of this world.

Yes, ok. I was musically not that experienced at that time, but anyway. That is my personal impression. And the music of the Mandalorian is often too familiar. The guitar music in the 4th episode destroyed the illusion instead of supporting it.

 

I've made this argument before, but I will continue to do so: I find scores such as The Mandalorian to be infinitely closer to the spirit of John Williams' approach to Star Wars--and indeed his creative spirit as a whole--than the efforts of the Gordy Haabs et al. In practically every aspect, Star Wars has always been a melange of countless and far-reaching influences and elements, some contemporaneous, some from the past.  

 

You grant that it's subjective, which is of course every bit valid, but for me the end result of The Mandalorian, its cocktail of Western guitar twangs, ethnic instruments, modern and vintage electronics, traditional orchestral instruments and idioms, create a sonic world that I've never heard before.

[Mattris 416]

On 09/10/2020 at 8:35 AM, Chen G. said:

No, only George Lucas, specifically. He's a big *insert offensive but anatomically-correct term here* liar.

 

I don't believe a word out of his mouth.

 

I wonder, do you still have nothing to say about the "Kill him, a voice in her head said." quote?

 

And is 'Physically kill the one who threatens the one(s) you love in order to attain redemption.' the intended take-away of the Saga? Keep in mind that Emperor Palpatine wanted Luke to kill him in hatred... and told Rey the same and even explicitly warned her of the consequences. Enraged, she killed him anyway.

 

On 09/10/2020 at 3:17 PM, SilverTrumpet said:

Just because you come up with something later on that connects to something from before doesn't mean they planned it out the whole time. 

 

If Rey was always meant to be a Palpatine, why did Anakin's lightsaber reach out to her and try to inspire her to get involved in the goings on in the universe? Why did Han act like he knew her and why were they hinting that she had a lot of similarities to Han? Why does she look a lot like Natalie Portman? I'm still convinced she was Han and Leia's daughter until they took that out in editing in TFA.

 

As for the "Kill him". That wasn't even in the movie, and writing it in the novel? That was obviously just meant to be signify the dark side tempting her when she's angry. 

 

This whole conversation is so tired. The Disney Star Wars movies were unplanned, arrogantly made thrown together crap. Pretending there's this great, bigger plan is just not supported by reality at all. 

 

Later things that connect to earlier things should be a major clue that the writers planned the development of the narrative. Even if they didn't, the link is still there. I could speak at length about this, but I don't wish to spoil it for you.

 

Who said that 'Anakin's lightsaber reached out to Rey and try to inspire her to get involved in the goings on in the universe'? (Remember, it was voices in her head  that first led her to the lightsaber.)

When did Han act like he knew Rey? What similarities to Han?

You're the first person I've heard say that Daisey Ridley looks a lot like Natalie Portman. Perhaps Rey is related to Padme.

Taking out the reveal that Rey was Han and Leia's daughter from TFA "in editing" is incredibly naive.

 

On 09/10/2020 at 3:23 PM, Chen G. said:

Hang on to that thought while I call George "now Leia is Luke's sister 'cause reasons" Lucas, and his twin, George "what Sifo-Dyas payoff?" Lucas.

 

The only reason you lot are even expecting for there to be a plan is because Lucas conditioned you to believe there is one, where in fact there NEVER was. Its incredibly naive.

 

Darth Vader = Dark Father.  Luke and Leia were the same age. Both had four-letter names that start with the same letter. Sifo-Dyas payoff? Do tell.

 

If you knew what I have realized, you would concede "that it is you who are mistaken... about a great many things."   Enough of my realizations have been recorded here, but I'll probably mention others. Once I'm proven right, we'll see if you have the humility to admit I was right and that you were wrong.

 

On 09/10/2020 at 3:30 PM, SilverTrumpet said:

But those movies didn't reverse the characterization and then unceremoniously kill off the main characters and hyping their return after more than 30 years and leave us with a bunch of randos we don't care about and try to last minute throw in halfassed plot twists to pretend they matter...and then nothing happens at all anyway.

 

Return of the Jedi had nowhere to go as it is for a sequel and The Rise of Skywalker managed to basically just replace the ending of ROTJ only Luke, Han, and Leia are sad and dead now.

 

But don't worry, there'll definitely be an Episode X eventually.

 

"...nothing happens at all anyway."  What do you think occurred in these films, specifically at the end of IX?

 

Who benefits - or takes pleasure - from the deaths of Luke, Han, and Leia?

 

Right you are. (And no doubt, it will be quite the event.)

 

On 09/10/2020 at 3:31 PM, Chen G. said:

Was there a way to do a sequel trilogy that doesn't soil Return of the Jedi?

 

No, there wasn't.

 

The Sequel Trilogy doesn't "soil Return of the Jedi"; it logically progressed the story. Like so many others, you just failed to grasp what really happened in that film, and for that matter, in the first six Episodes.

 

On 09/10/2020 at 3:35 PM, SilverTrumpet said:

They built on the movies.

 

That's what happened. Trust me, everything make sense from a certain point of view.

 

On 09/10/2020 at 3:38 PM, Chen G. said:

Dunno why the buck stops at Palpatine.

 

"That is why you fail."   The through-line of the Saga should be obvious by now: Emperor Palpatine, Sith Master Darth Sidious is the phantom menace. As George Lucas said himself, "Palpatine represents The Devil and the pure evil." Dealing with him is the Saga central conflict. It should come as no surprise that one cannot violently kill him, especially if he wants it to happen.

 

On 09/10/2020 at 3:41 PM, SilverTrumpet said:

Ewan McGreggor literally recorded a line for The Force Awakens as Obi-Wan talking to Rey.

 

She heard many 'voices in her head' in that vision. Hearing Obi-Wan's voice is not evidence of her being related to him... at all.

 

On 09/10/2020 at 4:05 PM, Manakin Skywalker said:

Because it doesn't. Those notes are nowhere near each other on a piano. I don't know what imaginary theme you're thinking of.

 

 

 

 

Different key. Different octave. Doesn't matter. Same five notes in a row.

 

On 09/10/2020 at 4:14 PM, Chen G. said:

This is all the more true in an action-adventure series like this one.

 

Wrong again. This Saga is a soap opera in space with elements of action and adventure. Or do you not believe that because George Lucas said it?

 

On 09/10/2020 at 9:23 PM, gkgyver said:

Oh my god this discussion is STILL GOING ON. 

 

By the way, the main reason why this whole trilogy is irrelevant bullshit is that Episode VII didn't even BOTHER to try explain how between ROTJ and TFA, the whole galaxy could be overthrown by a Sith empire again. 

TFA was one of the most aggravating movie experiences I ever had, because it rips open dozens of plot holes and begs a hundred questions that never ever get answered. 

 

This discussion will continue to go on because the masses do not understand Star Wars. (And the Saga has not concluded.)

 

Why "the whole galaxy could be overthrown by a Sith empire again" was explained in the opening scroll for TFA:

 

Luke Skywalker has vanished.
In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER

has risen from the ashes of the Empire
and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi,
has been destroyed.

 

With the support of the REPUBLIC,
General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE.
She is desperate to find her
brother Luke and gain his
help in restoring peace and
justice to the galaxy.

 

... And in TROS, when Leia realized that Emperor Palpatine had been "always two steps ahead, in the shadows from the very beginning."

 

What "dozens of plot holes" and "hundred questions that never ever get answered" by the end of the trilogy?

[Chen G. 3,948]

10 hours ago, Mattris said:

Darth Vader = Dark Father.  Luke and Leia were the same age. Both had four-letter names that start with the same letter. Sifo-Dyas payoff? Do tell.

 

 

You believe this horse-shite? 

 

Oh wait, you're @Mattris You believe in even crazier stuff. Forget I asked.

 

10 hours ago, Mattris said:

the masses do not understand Star Wars.

 

If the masses don't understand your movie, the movie has failed. You shouldn't need an M.Sc. in "Expanded Universe-ology" to understand a movie.

 

That's all I'll say to you.

 

10 hours ago, Mattris said:

And is 'Physically kill the one who threatens the one(s) you love in order to attain redemption.' the intended take-away of the Saga?

 

I'll just spring-board off of this because its something that's always bugged me about this series. This "killing the bad-guy is wrong and his death should always come by the hand someone other than the hero" morality reeks of the 70s flower-child mentality that Star Wars was hatched in. Its the same mindset that compelled John Boorman to have the Orcs turn good at the end of his Lord of the Rings script.

 

Its one of the things I loathed about The Rise of Skywalker. When Rey says she'll go and kill Palpatine, the film treats this a morally-dubious moment for Rey where it really shouldn't be one. When Maximus kills Commodus at the end of Gladiator - a premeditated act he had worked towards for the last hour of the movie - his morales are never questioned. This is yet another example of Star Wars being one of the most broken morality plays of all time.

[gkgyver 1,645]

@Mattris

 

Do you actually believe Lucas' thoughts and ideas about Star Wars have ANY bearing on the Disney trilogy? You obviously aren't seriously suggesting that, given that Lucas' displeasure with it are more than obvious. 

[Chen G. 3,948]

The Force Awakens isn't really that far-off of the version Lucas first greenlit.

 

Lucas' concieved of a film focused around a young, scrappy orphan from a junkyard planet who goes to find a reclusive Jedi master, all while being chased by the Jedi Killer, who tries to corrupt the son of Han and Leia.

 

So, yeah, all similarities to Luke, Ben/Yoda and Vader are anything but coincidental. So its Lucas who set the film - and this trilogy - on the road for incessant self-referentiality. So he didn't have yet another spherical space station - but the narrative and themes were still a complete rehash, and Abrams and Kathleen Kennedy did largely walk in his footsteps in this regard.

[Mattris 416]

14 hours ago, gkgyver said:

Do you actually believe Lucas' thoughts and ideas about Star Wars have ANY bearing on the Disney trilogy? You obviously aren't seriously suggesting that, given that Lucas' displeasure with it are more than obvious. 

 

Yes, "Lucas' thoughts and ideas about Star Wars" make up the core of the latest trilogy, the story of which progressed the narrative of the Saga naturally and logically. Its themes were 100% consistent. Many of audience's desires and expectations may have been subverted, but that's not the fault of the film-makers. The audience simply didn't understand what the Star Wars Saga represents: aspects of humanity, psychology, spirituality, making difficult choices, and even facing pure evil.

 

When did Lucas express displeasure with this trilogy? He didn't seem displeased at TFA's premiere. He even offered some insight:

 

"Well, it's a film about families. It's a film about generations and what one generation leaves behind for the next generation has to deal with."

 

 

15 hours ago, Chen G. said:

If the masses don't understand your movie, the movie has failed. You shouldn't need an M.Sc. in "Expanded Universe-ology" to understand a movie.

 

One needn't a culinary degree to appreciate good food. But knowing exactly what makes the food unique and great-tasting leaves one that much more satisfied and with a greater understanding, and ultimately, more appreciative of the experience. The same concept applies with art, sports, and music.

 

With nine films in the bag, fans who don't understand the primary narrative and themes of the Star Wars Saga simply haven't been paying attention. Sooner than later, reality will hit them like a ton of bricks. The good news is, these stories will finally be understood and become even more satisfying. But it's the lessons that should be learned from this whole experience that speak to the true purpose of the Saga.

 

15 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I'll just spring-board off of this because its something that's always bugged me about this series. This "killing the bad-guy is wrong and his death should always come by the hand someone other than the hero" morality reeks of the 70s flower-child mentality that Star Wars was hatched in. Its the same mindset that compelled John Boorman to have the Orcs turn good at the end of his Lord of the Rings script.

 

Its one of the things I loathed about The Rise of Skywalker. When Rey says she'll go and kill Palpatine, the film treats this a morally-dubious moment for Rey where it really shouldn't be one. When Maximus kills Commodus at the end of Gladiator - a premeditated act he had worked towards for the last hour of the movie - his morales are never questioned. This is yet another example of Star Wars being one of the most broken morality plays of all time.

 

That morality applies because, in this Saga, "the bad-guy" represents the Devil - who in a later film, spoke of 'cheating death' - and cannot be killed by simple physical means, especially a violent act of passion. The Saga continued with Episode VII.

 

"When Rey says she'll go and kill Palpatine", Leia knows Rey isn't prepared, as she hadn't taken to her Jedi training well at all... and tells her not to go. Regarding confronting Palpatine in the flesh, yes, "the film treats this a morally-dubious moment for Rey". Rey's "premeditated act" to defeat him was revealed to have been a mistaken approach, as Palpatine made it clear that he would win if she killed him, with his Sith spirit passing into her as the result.

 

The audience was not meant to 'question Rey's morals' because she was always portrayed as a well-intentioned character. But it was Rey's behavior  throughout the films that should have been in question, as it was made abundantly clear that Rey was selfish and naive... and never changed. What a shame so few of the audience picked up on this. (I suppose the film-makers' bait to distract them with such a 'strong female character' worked too well.)

 

14 hours ago, Chen G. said:

... the narrative and themes were still a complete rehash, and Abrams and Kathleen Kennedy did largely walk in his footsteps in this regard.

 

"It's like poetry; they rhyme."

 

All the more silly the audience will feel, eventually, for having not grasped the through-line similarities in the stories and characters... and the larger implications of it all. After multiple decades, it will take the final films of the Saga for nearly all Star Wars fans to finally realize how much they missed. How embarrassing... and shocking!

 

"Young fool. Only now, at the end, do you understand."

[Arpy 4,145]

 

14 hours ago, Chen G. said:

You shouldn't need an M.Sc. in "Expanded Universe-ology" to understand a movie.

But...

 

... I spent four years of my life on that exact degree!

[Mattris 416]

On 10/9/2020 at 5:48 AM, Arpy said:

I don't know how to plot the course of this thread which moved from one extreme to another, from vitriol against the ST to passionately defending it and I can't jump in anymore to combat what's being said because it's shifted everytime I get near it. 

 

Rest assured, what hasn't shifted are the themes and narrative of the Saga. Do you agree with my assessments?

 

14 minutes ago, Arpy said:

But...

 

... I spent four years of my life on that exact degree!

 

Care to share some of the most important things you learned? (And I hope you studied the novelizations and new canon.)

[Chen G. 3,948]

5 hours ago, Mattris said:

even offered some insight:

 

"Well, it's a film about families. It's a film about generations and what one generation leaves behind for the next generation has to deal with."

 

 

 

Thank you, I needed my daily dosage of George Lucas bullshit today. Its like he has a checklist for talking to the press:

 

Some nonesense about making experimental films for himself - check.

Talk about how Star Wars is a soap opera, even though its really not - check.

 

The man's a joke.

[Mattris 416]

13 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

The man's a joke.

 

"It's ironic."  - Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, noting that his Sith Master "could save others from death. But not himself."

 

I'm curious @Chen G., what do you think George Lucas thinks about the latest trilogy? Do you think he was, in any way, involved in its planning and/or creation?

[Chen G. 3,948]

I don't really care what Lucas thinks of the trilogy in terms of the merit of the films. I believe Lucas bought Disney stock when he sold Star Wars, so the success of these movies is in his interest.

 

Like I said, we know Lucas worked on Episode VII and in that way he definitely had a part in getting this trilogy off the ground. But the suggestion that he had any involvement beyond that - including supposedly making sketches of episode VIII and IX - is codswallop.