Star Wars Disenchantment

[Mattris 416]

Regarding Lucas' involvement, I wholeheartedly disagree, @Chen G..  (I suppose we shouldn't be surprised.)

 

In the same vein as "codswallop", do you think Mark Hamill was "totally hornswoggled" by Lucasfilm regarding his involvement in the latest trilogy? Hamill said in an interview that he only agreed to be involved based on the supposition that George Lucas' treatments would be used... and implied they weren't.

[Arpy 4,145]

@Mattris Most of your connections are circumstantial after the fact - that is to say, it's terribly convenient in hindsight, but not so much in the developmental stages. Some of what you've asserted makes some sense but that's only because the films themselves and by extension the artistry involved is, as Chen put it, highly referential of itself because it has been pigeonholed that way.

 

Rey's Theme has similarities that we can't say for certain that they share a connection with The Emperor's Theme, or the Force or Yoda's Theme, but because Williams is writing for a litany of characters belonging to the same world, it's more likely than not that they're going to be cut fro the same cloth. Though an important distinction to be made here and is what you're sidestepping; coincidence does not equal incidence or intent. The same way Christians can't use their holy text as evidence for it's assertions, you can't use the films one through nine to support your claims. We need contemporaneous and external supporting evidence that Lucas, LFL and Disney aren't going to share. 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

29 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Rey's Theme has similarities that we can't say for certain that they share a connection with The Emperor's Theme, or the Force or Yoda's Theme, but because Williams is writing for a litany of characters belonging to the same world, it's more likely than not that they're going to be cut fro the same cloth.

 

In an interview around the time of TFA, with our boy Tim Greiving, Williams mentioned that it was of prime importance of him to keep the score "Star Warsian", and specifically elaborated to mean things such as harmonies and intervals.

[Chen G. 3,944]

2 hours ago, Arpy said:

coincidence does not equal incidence or intent.

 

The way I always refer to leitmotives is as callbacks in the dialogue of a screenplay. Not all recurring phrases are callbacks: sometimes they're just generic lines that the writers fall back on, like "Come on!" and stuff like that.

 

And if leitmotives are lines or phrases, the kind of musical building blocks Mattris is referring to are closer to individual syllables, in which case of course there are going to be similarities even when no thematic connection is present or intended.

 

We should really keep Mattris away from Wagner's Ring cycle. The similarities there would make him lose his mind.

[Mattris 416]

@Arpy  I'm not "sidestepping" at all. It's clear to me that hundreds* of identical (or nearly-identical) lines, words, incidences, and themes indicate intent. (I've posted only a tiny fraction of them in this thread.)     * including the novelizations and other canon material

 

Of course, 'what I've asserted makes some sense because the films - and the artistry involved - are highly referential'. Of course, 'they've been pigeonholed that way'. That concept is directly in line with Lucas' "like poetry, they rhyme" approach to the Saga. Similarities regarding lines, incidences, themes, character traits, and certain words are intended by Lucas and the writers contracted by Lucasfilm. Those not aware of this, I'm sorry to say, do not understand Star Wars.

 

Why is additional information regarding the stories' "developmental stages" and "contemporaneous and external supporting evidence" required to logically conclude that my observed connections are storyteller-intended? Why can't the content of the films be used to support these connections? (Some say that only the films should be used to indicate a plan, evidence, and merit.) Would quotes directly from the (revealing) novelizations be accepted in order to make connections? In your view, how can one make connections in order to interpret these stories?

 

Do you not agree that the "terribly convenient in hindsight" connections make sense of nearly every major facet of the Saga? Regarding these latest entries, do you think Lucasfilm's writers chose identical circumstances, character traits, words, and actions - as they relate to the previous Episodes and their primary themes and narrative - coincidentally?

 

More importantly, do you understand the very point of the Saga to exist... and what the characters and their actions/choices represent? Understanding these concepts is absolutely essential to making any major Saga-wide connections and conclusions. One must to know what to look for... or what I call "a certain point of view." Once known, everything quickly falls into place, as shocking realizations come flooding in.

 

It's a fact that Rey's Theme contains musical similarities with The Emperor's Theme (opening with rising/falling minor thirds) and The Force Theme (same chordal structure). Claiming that Williams' Star Wars themes are "going to be cut from the same cloth" is a simplistic, amateurish approach... and does not even begin to explain how Kylo Ren's motif starts with fives note in a row from The Emperor's Theme, a character that was revealed to have been manipulated by Emperor Palpatine his entire life through 'voices in his head'. Once you accept that Williams composed his theme accordingly, the Rey's Theme connection should be easily accepted as deliberate also. She was a Palpatine, for goodness sake!

 

Star Wars is really not that complicated. But I'm sorry to say, the fans at large simply don't yet 'get it'. Eventually, I hope George Lucas, JJ Abrams, the writers/collaborators at Lucasfilm, and John Williams will finally receive fully-deserved credit for their extraordinary work over the decades. "It's so much bigger."

 

I find it sad that so many people (Star Wars fans!) need the film-makers to essentially slap them in the face with reality and incontrovertible facts in order for them to understand many of 'the basics of Star Wars' that went all but unnoticed for so long... or that simply weren't accepted due to pride, arrogance, and/or willful ignorance.

 

But don't worry. Many slaps to faces are on imminent. Count on it... starting with the number X.

[Chen G. 3,944]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

starting with the number X.

 

I'll voluntarily subject myself to a Ghost Pepper enema before I go watch Episode X in theaters.

[Mattris 416]

Interesting. Would you consider going if I'm right in my predictions? Or would that hurt your ego too much?

[Chen G. 3,944]

No.

 

There are only six Star Wars episodes, and its not like I'm itching to revisit all of those, either.

[Arpy 4,145]

I highly doubt the filmmakers considered even half the connections you're drawing Mattriss. The filmmaking process involved with the ST was shone through a prism not a funnel that pooped out a singular cohesive film. Lines from Revenge of Sith are so innocuous and so far removed from the making of the ST that they are nothing more than coincidental when they support certain characters' actions or motivations in later films. 

 

The thing is, I don't have a problem with you connecting the dots to rationalize the various differences in the screenwriting across the saga. You have half a puzzle set and you're filling the rest in with a collection of mismatching pieces. Yet you can't draw the conclusion from that alone, because we know that despite having a rough plan from the beginning, the trilogy was formed much more haphazardly than you make it out to be. 

 

Also, I'm unsure if Williams knew who Rey was all along, I doubt anyone involved like Abrams and Co. knew until they wrote episode 9.

Then we had this:

Quote

“At the beginning, there was toying with an Obi-Wan connection… There were, like, different versions.” Ridley explained that they had lots of different ideas as they were making the movies, including the concept that she really was nobody, which is what they seemingly went with in The Last Jedi before turning around and explaining that there was more to the story. Ridley explained that when being pitched The Rise of Skywalker, she was told that Rey was related to Sheev Palpatine; however, she noted that a few weeks later, the creative team on the final Star Wars project in the Skywalker saga was trying to figure out what the answer to that story element was going to be – a process that Ridley was left in the dark with even up to a certain point in filming

 

[Mattris 416]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

There are only six Star Wars episodes.

 

That's a factually-false statement. You may only acknowledge the first six episodes. But that just indicates that you don't understand the principal narrative and themes Star Wars Saga. Trust me, you've missed so much that matters, which has caused a mental block.

 

The fact is, nine episodes have been released. It's safe to say, being in denial of reality is not mentally healthy. (Though, I realize these are just films, at least in your mind.)

 

I must ask, why continue to engage with me on this topic? (I'll remind you that you have repeatedly said you were done with this thread.)

 

If you truly want to learn, I hope you are reading my latest posts carefully. I also advise reading the (most-illuminating) film novelizations.

 

Feel free to let me know if you ever come around. Rest assured, I won't be rude if you do. We can then discuss the intricacies of these stories. I understand that it might take further convincing from Lucasfilm. But I'm sure Lucas and Co. will desire to take credit for their initially-misunderstood work, so many decades in the making.

 

I also realize that it might be quite the struggle to put aside your pride in order to admit you were wrong about Star Wars, but that is the conundrum of the dark side. When the time comes, many like you will also be tested to confront reality. But the choice on how to proceed will be yours alone.

[Chen G. 3,944]

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

I'm sure Lucas and Co. will desire to take credit for their initially-misunderstood work

 

Not to be morbid, but more than likely, Lucas will have gone the way of the Dodo by the time there is an Episode X.

[Mattris 416]

8 hours ago, Arpy said:

I highly doubt the filmmakers considered even half the connections you're drawing Mattriss. The filmmaking process involved with the ST was shone through a prism not a funnel that pooped out a singular cohesive film. Lines from Revenge of Sith are so innocuous and so far removed from the making of the ST that they are nothing more than coincidental when they support certain characters' actions or motivations in later films. 

 

The thing is, I don't have a problem with you connecting the dots to rationalize the various differences in the screenwriting across the saga. You have half a puzzle set and you're filling the rest in with a collection of mismatching pieces. Yet you can't draw the conclusion from that alone, because we know that despite having a rough plan from the beginning, the trilogy was formed much more haphazardly than you make it out to be. 

 

Also, I'm unsure if Williams knew who Rey was all along, I doubt anyone involved like Abrams and Co. knew until they wrote episode 9.

 

Specifically which connections that I drew do you "highly doubt the filmmakers considered"? Which lines are "so far removed" as to be "coincidental"?

 

What factual evidence do you have that "The filmmaking process involved with the ST was shone through a prism not a funnel that pooped out a singular cohesive film." ?

 

Oh, I have much more that "half a puzzle set". (And no "mismatching pieces".) At this time, my evidence list is a mile long... and is growing daily.

 

I certainly can "draw the conclusion" from my discoveries and realizations. (I revealed some of the major ones in a few pages back.) And as I learn, I'm further refining my conclusions and predictions.

 

How do you know that Lucasfilm had only "a rough plan from the beginning" or that 'the trilogy was formed much more haphazardly than I make it out to be'?

 

Let's be realistic here, Williams would have composed both new main characters themes with The Emperor's Theme similarities only if he "knew who Rey was all along". And that's because he was first informed by JJ (or perhaps an executive at Lucasfilm). Because of course Lucasfilm, JJ, and Lawrence Kasdan had a plan for the featured character of a Star Wars Trilogy. Believing otherwise - without any hard evidence - is naivete of the highest order.

 

Sorry, but Daisy Ridley's latest comments on this topic - released on a Disney-owned channel, I might add - are not based in reality... at all. In case you weren't aware, the last Ridley spoke about Rey's lineage with Josh Gad, were clearly-rehearsed, comedic 'bits' shot on a cellphone. ("Hey Daisy. How are you? Everything going ok? Do you need anything? Who are Rey's parents?") Now, nine months after IX, Ridley's claims that she never knew about Rey's lineage, that it was changing all the way up to filming... or even during filming? Based on the facts alone, Ridley is either lying or was lied to.

 

On top of that, consider...

 

... the latest comments from John Boyega (Finn) - made public within days of those above from Ridley - in which he insinuated that those in charge of these films were racist to cast him (a black man), promote him prominently in the marketing, but not have his character do much throughout the trilogy.

 

... the fact that Ian McDiarmid admitted to have been contacted to return as the Emperor over a year before filming started. (Of course he would produce that timeline, as JJ had just been announced as the 'new' writer/director... with Colin Trevorrow announced as being 'let go' the day before... after years on the project. How convenient it all came together like that! After all of the other canon evidence that exists that proves that the Emperor was incorporated into the early canon material, give me a break.)

 

... the hundreds of unorthodox, awkward, rude, insulting, dismissive, questionable, contradictory Star Wars comments from other members of the films' cast & crew over the last 8 years, many of them directed at concerned / displeased Star Wars fans.

 

... and it should be abundantly clear that something is seriously amiss here. I'm confident that there is a method to this madness: It's based on "an effective Jedi trap".

 

7 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Lucas will have gone the way of the Dodo by the time there is an Episode X.

 

I think you will be very wrong about this. (But my prediction has nothing to do with George Lucas living well into old age.) 

[rough cut 1,714]

[Mattris 416]

 

"Hang on, lady. We're going for a ride."

[Chen G. 3,944]

1 hour ago, rough cut said:

 

Again and again and again...

[Nick Parker 3,040]

5 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

"Hang on, lady. We're going for a ride."

 

What a coincidence!, 'cause after reading this thread, like Short Round, I just took someone's razor!

[Falstaft 2,132]

Good grief, is this discussion still happening?

 

Williams did not know what the plan was, who Rey's parents were, what the Emperor's role was. None of it. Gosh, I have a recording of him saying at a Boston Pops concert following TFA that he had no clue whatsoever who Rey's parents were. And he even reieterated as much again, that he was surprised at the film's reveals, at a smaller-scale Q&A event at Tanglewood just last year, after the majority of TROS scoring had happened. 

 

If there were some deep, pre-planned connection intended between Rey, Kylo, and the Emperor's theme, don't you think Williams would have musically developed any of them in such a way to suggest those latent relationships, particularly in TROS? Instead, they're left mostly to their own devices. Heck, Williams even seems to supress the similarities when the moment would be obvious or opportune. Note, for example, the way the tail end of the Emperor's theme simply dissolves at 4:07 of Track 1 "Fanfare and Prologue" when that would have been the perfect place to tie his and Kylo Ren's motifs together.

 

The motivic similarities are happy coincidences -- not exactly trivial from a music structural or stylistic standpoint, but definitively, demonstrably not evidence of any sort of long-range plan. 

 

Williams I Dunno.mp3

[Arpy 4,145]

So @Mattris when actors and filmmakers provide statements alleging that there were other directions they could've taken the characters, that's dubious and unbelievable, but you can conveniently pluck any old quote out of your arse to support your wild claims without the same scrutiny?

 

 

[Holko 9,499]

5 minutes ago, Arpy said:

So @Mattris when actors and filmmakers provide statements alleging that there were other directions they could've taken the characters, that's dubious and unbelievable, but you can conveniently pluck any old quote out of your arse to support your wild claims without the same scrutiny?

 

 

Yes, welcome to the thread.

 

Hang on, since he changed his tune, shouldn't it now be called Star Wars Reenchantment?

[Chen G. 3,944]

1 hour ago, Arpy said:

when actors and filmmakers provide statements alleging that there were other directions they could've taken the characters, that's dubious and unbelievable, but you can conveniently pluck any old quote out of your arse to support your wild claims without the same scrutiny?

 

 

Maybe you don't quite get what @Mattris is saying. In his mind, Kathleen Kennedy, Michael Arndt, JJ Abrams,  Lawrence Kasdan, Rian Johnson, Colin Trevorrow, Derek Connoly, Chris Terrio, Daisy Ridley, John Williams, George Lucas are all decieving us so as to make Episode X all the more surprising and mind-blowing when it comes.
 

Like, Lucasfilm intentionally shelled out a film that is (at least seemingly, per Mattris) a dud, so that Episode X could come along and not blow our minds, but somehow make said did great due to context.

 

1 hour ago, Holko said:

Hang on, since he changed his tune, shouldn't it now be called Star Wars Reenchantment?

 

Seemingly yes, but who knows when our esteemed colleague would change his mind yet again? Maybe its a seasonal thing?

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

Say what you will about Mattress, but at least he stays in his quarantined thread.

[Chen G. 3,944]

I believe we've seen him around a couple of other Star Wars related threads.

 

If it gets too out of hand, our trusted @Jay tends to relocate his stuff here.

[Mattris 416]

On 11/10/2020 at 4:35 PM, Arpy said:

So @Mattris when actors and filmmakers provide statements alleging that there were other directions they could've taken the characters, that's dubious and unbelievable, but you can conveniently pluck any old quote out of your arse to support your wild claims without the same scrutiny?

 

That's just it, I'm not 'plucking any old quotes'. They are quotes that tie together the Saga using word association, lines, character traits, and through-line elements and themes. What "wild claims"? Care to answer my latest questions to you?

 

I'll remind you of this Chris Terrio quote:

 

When asked if Palpatine had always been the plan, prior to Episode IX, Terrio said "Well, I can’t speak to Kathy’s overall intent. That was certainly discussed and was discussed before I ever came on. Kathy had this overall vision that we had to be telling the same story for nine episodes. Although from the sleight of hand of Episode VII and Episode VIII, you wouldn’t necessarily know immediately that we were telling the same story. She thought it would be a very strong end for the ninth movie. This fits well with J.J. because he loves magic tricks."

 

"When you rewatch the earlier films," he added, "things start to make additional sense. Ren and his devotion to the idea of his grandfather. The voice that he’s always heard in his head. The certain similarities between Snoke and Palpatine. The intention was that, by the time you get to Episode IX, you realize there were real reasons this is all happening. It all shows how this story is being fought cyclically through the series."

 

On 11/10/2020 at 5:16 PM, Manakin Skywalker said:

Say what you will about Mattress, but at least he stays in his quarantined thread.

 

On the previous page, I addressed your statements and asked some direct questions. Care to respond, @Manakin Skywalker?

 

On 11/10/2020 at 5:31 PM, Chen G. said:

I believe we've seen him around a couple of other Star Wars related threads.

 

If it gets too out of hand, our trusted @Jay tends to relocate his stuff here.

 

Everyone else's posts in those threads also get relocated... for the reason that people starting getting weird, demeaning, and/or insulting. (You included.)

[Chen G. 3,944]

6 minutes ago, Mattris said:

people starting getting weird, demeaning, and/or insulting. (You included.)

 

If that's the case on your end, I apologize.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

1 hour ago, Holko said:

Yes, welcome to the thread.

 

Hang on, since he changed his tune, shouldn't it now be called Star Wars Reenchantment?

 

I've become disenchanted! The name stays!

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

54 minutes ago, Mattris said:

On the previous page, I addressed your statements and asked some direct questions. Care to respond, @Manakin Skywalker?

 

I actually thought I did, but I must have forgotten.

 

I will admit your were right about the similarity between Kylo's motif and the Emperor's theme. I assumed you were referring to the first five note's of the Emperor's theme, but I see what you were getting at now.

 

But that still in no way links Kylo to Palpatine. John uses the same scale for basically all of his villain themes, so there are bound to be similarities. This one may seem a bit on the nose, but it's possible that was done intentionally; not to link the two characters together, but to cement Kylo Ren as a villain by giving him a robust "bad guy" motif.

 

We do know that Palpatine was always in the running as a possible big-bad for the trilogy, but the fact remains that we do know that he wasn't always necessarily going to be involved, it was just one of many possibilities that JJ and his team entertained. There is no solid evidence to the contrary; slight musical similarities are in no way proof.

[Arpy 4,145]

Now you're being selective, @Mattris why should I trust your take on what Chris Terrio has to say over Ridley?

 

 

The Josh Gad shit was obviously part of a skit, but her other comments weren't.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

3 hours ago, Falstaft said:

Good grief, is this discussion still happening?

 

Williams did not know what the plan was, who Rey's parents were, what the Emperor's role was. None of it. Gosh, I have a recording of him saying at a Boston Pops concert following TFA that he had no clue whatsoever who Rey's parents were. And he even reieterated as much again, that he was surprised at the film's reveals, at a smaller-scale Q&A event at Tanglewood just last year, after the majority of TROS scoring had happened. 

 

If there were some deep, pre-planned connection intended between Rey, Kylo, and the Emperor's theme, don't you think Williams would have musically developed any of them in such a way to suggest those latent relationships, particularly in TROS? Instead, they're left mostly to their own devices. Heck, Williams even seems to supress the similarities when the moment would be obvious or opportune. Note, for example, the way the tail end of the Emperor's theme simply dissolves at 4:07 of Track 1 "Fanfare and Prologue" when that would have been the perfect place to tie his and Kylo Ren's motifs together.

 

The motivic similarities are happy coincidences -- not exactly trivial from a music structural or stylistic standpoint, but definitively, demonstrably not evidence of any sort of long-range plan. 

 

Williams I Dunno.mp3 93.56 kB · 1 download

 

 

Would you just shut up, you fucking weirdo whose academic work on the music of Star Wars was chosen by renowned and legendary journalist Alex Ross to share and discuss with John Williams himself!? Jesus talk about grasping for straws.

[gkgyver 1,645]

11 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

I'll voluntarily subject myself to a Ghost Pepper enema before I go watch Episode X in theaters.

 

The One-Chip-Buttplug-Challenge

[Mattris 416]

On 11/10/2020 at 6:49 PM, Manakin Skywalker said:

I will admit your were right about the similarity between Kylo's motif and the Emperor's theme. I assumed you were referring to the first five note's of the Emperor's theme, but I see what you were getting at now.

 

But that still in no way links Kylo to Palpatine. John uses the same scale for basically all of his villain themes, so there are bound to be similarities. This one may seem a bit on the nose, but it's possible that was done intentionally; not to link the two characters together, but to cement Kylo Ren as a villain by giving him a robust "bad guy" motif.

 

We do know that Palpatine was always in the running as a possible big-bad for the trilogy, but the fact remains that we do know that he wasn't always necessarily going to be involved, it was just one of many possibilities that JJ and his team entertained. There is no solid evidence to the contrary; slight musical similarities are in no way proof.

 

@Manakin Skywalker Your musically-illiterate statement that "John uses the same scale for basically all of his villain themes, so there are bound to be similarities" indicates to me that, musically, you have no absolutely clue what you're talking about. This connection certainly is "a bit on the nose" because it's a bit more than "possible that was done intentionally". We both know that John Williams is a musical genius and far too creative to have coincidentally chosen those particular five notes in a row in his efforts to compose a "robust bad guy motif", especially considering the character's prominent connection to the villain of the Saga.

 

This connection is not a 'slight musical similarity'. Kylo's motif starts with five notes in a row from The Emperor's Theme and absolutely does link him to Palpatine. More specifically, those notes are the first five of a six-note phrase from measures 7 and 8 of The Emperor's Theme. I wonder, if Kylo's five-note motif (including its lead, bass, establishing note) was all six notes from that phrase, what you would say?

 

Do you have any substantive evidence that Emperor Palpatine "was just one of many possibilities that JJ and his team entertained"?

 

"No solid evidence to the contrary" that Palpatine had to be majorly involved going forward? How about this:

 

Darth Sidious (Emperor Palpatine) is the villain of Saga. He is the phantom menace and represents the Devil and pure evil, as George Lucas said himself. A master manipulator in this parable-based story, he directly (and remotely) communicated with and attempted to seduce every Skywalker of the Saga... and was also closely involved with a few other notable characters.

 

Those that do not realize this, do not understand Star Wars nearly as well as they thought. The reality is, this applies to the majority of the fandom, so of course the masses didn't see the Emperor's return coming. But he didn't actually 'return' to the story, did he? He never left.

 

Narrative-wise, this makes sense of the Saga and its progression with this latest trilogy. Because as the old saying goes:

 

"The biggest trick the Devil ever pulled was making you think he doesn't exist."

 

On 11/10/2020 at 7:48 PM, Arpy said:

Now you're being selective, @Mattris why should I trust your take on what Chris Terrio has to say over Ridley?

 

The Josh Gad shit was obviously part of a skit, but her other comments weren't.

 

@Arpy You're the one being selective. Josh Gad's skits are the evidence that Ridley's latest comments are also a skit. It's that simple. This is just another example of Lucasfilm playing the fans as fools in their efforts to distract... from their real plans.

 

On this page, I posed to you about a dozen questions in response to your comments. Care to have a crack at them?

[rough cut 1,714]

Jeez, this conversation clearly isn't going anywhere. Can we just go back to casual-hating on Star Wars and how it doesn't make us feel the way it did when we were kids (...or at least younger!)?

 

I'll start.

 

I can't believe the lazy writing in TFA! When Maz said "That's a good story, for another time" about how she got the lightsaber, that's just lazy writing. Stop making up plot elements if you can't take the time to think about how they hang together!

 

And what happened to Stable Boy in TLJ? Why did the movie end on him? No other Star Wars movie has ever ended on a non-sequential character. What a waste! Nor did it symbolize anything of meaning that the audience could reflect upon later. Bad writing/planning!

 

And in ROTS, when Finn says "Rey, I have to tell you something", but then never does... What the h*ll was he going to say? Why even put that in the script if they weren't going to address it later.

 

Lazy, lazy, lazy.

 

And don't even get me started on The Mandalorian! 

[Arpy 4,145]

DAISY RIDLEY'S COMMENTS REGARDING 'REY KENOBI' WERE DEAD FUCKING SERIOUS. JUST BECAUSE THEY DON'T FIT YOUR NARRATIVE DOESN'T NEGATE THEIR RELEVANCE.

 

Okay. I'm done.

[Score 770]

10 hours ago, Falstaft said:

The motivic similarities are happy coincidences -- not exactly trivial from a music structural or stylistic standpoint, but definitively, demonstrably not evidence of any sort of long-range plan. 

 

Williams I Dunno.mp3 93.56 kB · 6 downloads

 

The fact that JW in Vienna told the story about how he thought Luke and Leia were going to be lovers, then he said something along the lines of "... and this is their love theme from the second movie", and then proceeded to play "Luke and Leia" from ROTJ, speaks volumes about the long-range plans that Mattris wants to find everywhere. 

 

(although, except for the wrong movie number, this is a bit more coherent than when he told the same story and then played "Princess Leia's Theme" in another concert - maybe "Luke and Leia" was really meant to be a love theme initially)

 

What is clear is that JW needs to sort his leitmotifs out!

 

 

 

[Smaug The Iron 510]

On 10/10/2020 at 9:20 AM, Mattris said:

She heard many 'voices in her head' in that vision. Hearing Obi-Wan's voice is not evidence of her being related to him... at all.

So hearing Obi-Wan in here vision = not related. 

Hearing someone saying "Kill him" in here vision = Ray is a Palpatine.

 

 

[Mattris 416]

@Arpy If Daisy Ridley was truly serious (this time) with Josh Gad, then the truth about Rey's lineage was intentionally kept from her with the intention that it would add to her performance, as the character Rey didn't know either. In essence, Lucasfilm lied to their lead actress for five years. (An additional up-side would be that Ridley's ignorance of the truth meant that she couldn't accidentally leak it.)

 

I'll remind you that Ridley revealed this tidbit of behind-the-scenes info on a Disney-owned station. How perfectly in-line with this this trilogy's seemingly-endless controversy!

 

Early on, Daisy Ridley made it clear that she wasn't a Star Wars fan. So it's not surprising that she would accept that the lead character might be a Kenobi or a 'nobody' in these stories about Sheev Palpatine and the Skywalkers. But for so many Star Wars fans to truly believe this could have been the case about Rey? How truly ignorant and gullible!

 

THE FACTS - that is, the narrative of the Saga, the content of the films, the canon material, and the musical scores - do fit my narrative.

 

Only select contradictory/absurd comments from (current or former) Lucasfilm employees do not.

 

In truth, one major incontrovertible element exists in the OT that proves that Palpatine's returned was baked in... and absolutely had to return if further episodes were made. And I've already said what it is in this thread.  

[Arpy 4,145]

Fake news. Wrong.

 

 

 

Wrong.

[Mattris 416]

On 12/10/2020 at 4:08 AM, Smaug the iron said:

So hearing Obi-Wan in here vision = not related. 

Hearing someone saying "Kill him" in here vision = Ray is a Palpatine.

 

 

 

No, I said that Rey hearing Obi-Wan in that vision could not be used as evidence that she was related to him. That vision contained only disturbing images that left Rey shocked and wanting to run away from everything. A wispy-sounding Obi-Wan voice tagged-on at the end of it should have been a clue that the whole experience was a trick: a dark side vision, just as she experienced at the beginning of IX.

 

In a 'like poetry, it rhymes' parable - and with nine films in the bag - the occurrence of "Kill him, a voice in her head said." clearly means that Palpatine had spoken to her through the Force. He said those very words to Anakin when ordering him to execute Count Dooku... and revealed to Kylo in Episode IX: "I have been every voice you have ever heard inside your head."  (This connection not complicated and wasn't intended to be.)

 

But no, in isolation, this connection does not indicate that she is a Palpatine. All things considered, though, continued assumption that Lucasfilm didn't know who the trilogy-featured character was until late in its production is naivete on an astronomical scale.

 

 

Further evidence that Rey Palpatine was planned from the beginning:

 

Rey's first words in The Force Awakens ("Tal'ama parqual!") are an anagram for "I am a Palpatine."  Some characters need to be flipped or mirrored (which form "pine", as in Pinewood Studios, where the films principal photography took place). Also, an 'r' is leftover... for "Rey".

 

 

Fittingly, it's many fans' perceptions that will also need to be 'flipped' once the Saga continues.

 

"You must unlearn what you have learned."  - Yoda

[Chen G. 3,944]

On 10/12/2020 at 1:19 PM, Mattris said:

Rey's first words in The Force Awakens ("Tal'ama parqual!") are an anagram for "I am a Palpatine."

 

+ 3 ([]x[]) ²⁰⁰

 

Bless you, @Mattris. I was having the shittiest of days, and then you come along with this.

[Holko 9,499]

1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

 

() ²⁰⁰

 

 

This has been the greatest longplay undercover troll spree in the forum's history.

[Arpy 4,145]

Mattriss's Troll Status was in doubt for a while, I must admit, but I think he's dropped the ball this time.

[Chen G. 3,944]

I want that 

 

Quote

Rey's first words in The Force Awakens ("Tal'ama parqual!") are an anagram for "I am a Palpatine."

 

Framed on my wall!

 

What a hoot!

 

Heck, its going on my signature!

[Mattris 416]

2 hours ago, rough cut said:

I can't believe the lazy writing in TFA! When Maz said "That's a good story, for another time" about how she got the lightsaber, that's just lazy writing. Stop making up plot elements if you can't take the time to think about how they hang together!

 

And what happened to Stable Boy in TLJ? Why did the movie end on him? No other Star Wars movie has ever ended on a non-sequential character. What a waste! Nor did it symbolize anything of meaning that the audience could reflect upon later. Bad writing/planning!

 

And in ROTS, when Finn says "Rey, I have to tell you something", but then never does... What the h*ll was he going to say? Why even put that in the script if they weren't going to address it later.

 

Lazy, lazy, lazy.

 

You will find that it is you who have been lazy... and gullible.

 

7 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Mattriss's Troll Status was in doubt for a while, I must admit, but I think he's dropped the ball this time.

 

I've dropped the ball?

 

"It's ironic."

[Chen G. 3,944]

You didn't drop just any ball, mate.

 

What you did is tantamount to Atlas dropping the Globe... from the top of Olympus Mons!

 

And yes, I'm still laughing! 

[Arpy 4,145]

It's true. All of it.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,507]

Its also an anagram of A LLAMA PARQUAT, so...go figure.

[Chen G. 3,944]

@Arpy stop it, I'm having trouble catching my breath! 

 

[Mattris 416]

@Chen G.  Has it occurred to you that your continual aggressive trolling and poking fun at me could backfire spectacularly? To borrow a line from Snoke:

 

"You underestimate Lucasfilm... and me. It will be your downfall."

 

Stop laughing for a second and truly think about it:  Is it more likely that I'm wrong about nearly everything... and that a majority of these Saga through-line elements are just a ludicrous coincidence... and that I'm grasping at straws?

 

Or... Is it more likely that these numerous connections align... and that they are incontrovertible proof of a deliberate, creative design from the very beginning that, all told, result in a cohesive Saga, with deep implications that hit at the very heart of humanity?

 

You may be enjoying yourself now... or as least pretending as such. But I foresee that your continual engagement with me will not end well for you. Why do I think that? Well, I've conducted research from official sources, and in the process, have made mind-blowing, Saga-spanning realizations. From my "point of view", you don't even understand Star Wars on a basic level.

 

I remind you again: I was right about Palpatine returning in Episode IX  and  that he intended to tempt Rey to the dark side so that he could move his Sith spirit into her body.

 

If I'm proven right, your demeaning comments and dismissive tone will make your eventual embarrassment that much more intense.

 

Don't say I didn't warn you.

[Chen G. 3,944]

 

On 12/10/2020 at 7:06 AM, Mattris said:

Has it occurred to you that your continual aggressive trolling and poking fun at me could backfire spectacularly? [...] all of this demeaning/dismissive behavior directed at me will make your eventual embarrassment that much more intense.

 

Lighten up, will 'ya!

 

I mean, come on! Anagrams? What is this, The Silence of the Lambs?! Wait, does that mean Rey is Clarice? Did she get into trouble with Unkar Plutt for trying to rescue whatever Jakku's version of lamb is? And does that make Kylo Ren Hannibal Lecter? Did he have Hux' liver with some fava beans? Is Exegol in Belvedere? Is Palpatine Buffalo Bill? I mean, he does technically want to live in a girl's body....

 

And, if Star Wars is The Silence of the Lambs, does that mean Star Trek is Se7en? Is that why Chris Pine retired from it? 

 

All of this makes more sense than what you said.

[Mattris 416]

Did you watch all of that Star Wars Theory video?

[Holko 9,499]

I admire your persistence and sharp vision, mate. I have an idea for you: there's something called Q, often referred to as QAnon. I'm sure its community of enlightened reasonable truthseekers would welcome your exceptional abilities with open arms.