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10 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Did you watch all that Star Wars Theory video?

 

I did watch it just now, purely to get a kick of hearing that joke spoken out-loud.

 

Its even funnier than it is written down!

 

Again, thank you so very much!

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In response to several posts, I'm taking the liberty of creating this thread as a response to a problem plaguing a number of members here: SWD, Star Wars Disenchantment. It's a common problem, but one

You know what they say, "one man's nightmare is another man's fetish"   In this thread: Mattris: says lots of weird things Everyone: that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever hear

The following is an excerpt from the beginning and ending of Chapter 15 of the Revenge of the Sith novelization, released 2005:

 


       When constructing an effective Jedi trap - as opposed to the sort that results in nothing more than an embarrassingly brief entry in the Temple archives - there are several design features that one should include for best results.
       The first is an irresistible bait. The commanding general of an outlaw nation, personally responsible for billions of deaths across the galaxy, is ideal.
        The second is a remote, nearly inaccessible location, one that is easily taken and easily fortified, with a sharply restricted field of action. It should also, ideally, belong to someone else, preferably an enemy; the locations used for Jedi traps never survive the operation unscathed, and many don't survive it at all. An excellent choice would be an impoverished desert planet in the Outer Rim, with unwarlike natives, whose few cities are built in a cluster of sinkholes on a vast arid plateau. A city in a sinkhole is virtually a giant kill-jar; once a Jedi flies in, all one need do is seal the lid.
      Third, since it is always a good idea to remain well out of reach when plotting against a Jedi's life - on the far side of the galaxy is considered best - one should have a reliable proxy to do the actual murder. The exemplar of a reliable proxy would be, for example, the most prolific living Jedi killer, backed up by a squad of advanced combat droids designed, built, and armed specifically to fight Jedi. Making one's proxy double as the bait is an impressively elegant stroke, if it can be managed, since it ensures that the Jedi victim will voluntarily place himself in contact with the Jedi killer - and will continue to do so even after he realizes the extent of the trap, out of a combination of devotion to duty and a not-entirely-unjustified arrogance.
      The fourth element of an effective Jedi trap is a massively overwhelming force of combat troops who are willing to burn the whole planet, including themselves if necessary, to ensure that the Jedi in question does not escape.
        A textbook example of the ideal Jedi trap is the one that waited on Utapau for Obi-Wan Kenobi.

 

.....................................................................................................


        As has been said, the textbook example of a Jedi trap is the one that was set on Utapau, for Obi-Wan Kenobi. It worked perfectly.
       The final element essential to the creation of a truly effective Jedi trap is a certain coldness of mind - a detachment, if you will, from any desire for a particular outcome.
       The best way to arrange matters is to create a win-win situation.
       For example, one might use as one's proxy a creature that not only is expendable, but would eventually have to be killed anyway. Thus, if one's proxy fails and is destroyed, it's no loss - in fact, the targeted Jedi has actually done one a favor, by taking care of a bit of dirty work one would otherwise have to do oneself.
       And the final stroke of perfection is to organize the Jedi trap so that by walking into it at all, the Jedi has already lost.
      That is to say, a Jedi trap works best when one's true goal is merely to make sure that the Jedi in question spends some hours or days off somewhere on the far side of the galaxy. So that he won't be around to interfere with one's real plans.
       So that by the time he can return, it will be already too late.

 

 

 

Remember, in this story, the Jedi were handily beaten - in relatively short order - by the Sith, who were patient, cunning, merciless, understanding of their enemy, and preyed on their assumptions and weaknesses.

 

The "effective Jedi trap" describes Lucasfilm's primary roll-out and presentation strategy for the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy... and the next installment of the Saga.

 

In this analogy, the "Jedi" are the "naive Star Wars fans". While literally 'killing the fans' is not Lucasfilm's intent, the biggest "Surprise!" in entertainment history will have to suffice.

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7 minutes ago, Mattris said:

[The Star Wars sequel-sequel trilogy will be] the biggest "Surprise!" in entertainment history

 

That's hillarious, but lets face it, you're NEVER going to top the "I am a Palpatine" anagram.

 

Sorry.

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Since page 134, I have topped the anagram a million-fold. I defined the Star Wars Saga before its true conclusion. You gave me credit for nothing... but instead decided to doubt everything... and laugh at me.

 

When I'm proven right, @Chen G., you won't be worth the time and effort to laugh at.

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That's clearly what JJ wanted you to think. Did you not understand the "effective Jedi trap"? You took the bait. Big mistake!

 

By the end of the trilogy, it's clear (to me) that Rey did not go on The Hero's Journey. While ever well-intentioned, she remained selfish and naive... and never grew as a person. In numerous moments of weakness, Rey played right into the Devil's hands... and eventually made the biggest single mistake of the Saga.

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I really don't know who's real and who's trolling anymore, so I'll just leave this here that proves there was no plan:

 

https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/rian-johnson-explains-how-he-crafted-the-last-jedis-character-arcs

 

Quote

The first thing that made me think this could be a great experience was that it wouldn't be written by committee. It's also not like there's a white board with the whole story arc laid out. Much to my surprise, it was, "Here's a script for Episode VII, and you can watch some dailies, because they were shooting Episode VII at the time, and let's talk about where this is going next."

 

 

star_wars_last_jedi_chewbacca_rian_johnson_01.jpg

It was very open. It ended up feeling in some strange way, very similar as to when I had written my other films in that there was a lot of space and freedom. We were always carrying the characters forward from the first movie, and we're starting off from the events of the first movie, and there's a trajectory to it so it made sense they would go in this direction next. But in that context, it felt like I was able to find the movie that I cared about. It was a really nice writing experience.

 

One of the very many accounts of Rian Johnson saying they gave him a blank slate to do whatever the hell he wanted. There was no plan. They were too arrogant and thought they could tell a coherent story with three radically different visions and no collaboration outside of requesting a quick character swap out in the last scene of the first two movies.

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7 hours ago, Mattris said:

You're the one being selective. Josh Gad's skits were the clue that Ridley's latest comments are also a skit. (It's that simple. This is just another example of Lucasfilm playing the fans as fools in their efforts to distract... from their real plans.)

 

That's absolutely ridiculous. There's nothing funny or amusing about what she said, so to say it's a skit is not only stupid but is factually incorrect. The saga is finished, the character of Palpatine is dead. There is no reason for them to keep diverting like this. Not everything is a fucking conspiracy.

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4 hours ago, Holko said:

I admire your persistence and sharp vision, mate. I have an idea for you: there's something called Q, often referred to as QAnon. I'm sure its community of enlightened reasonable truthseekers would welcome your exceptional abilities with open arms.

 

Funny, but the last thing we need is more Q casualties.

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2 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

That's absolutely ridiculous. There's nothing funny or amusing about what she said, so to say it's a skit is not only stupid but is factually incorrect. The saga is finished, the character of Palpatine is dead. There is no reason for them to keep diverting like this. Not everything is a fucking conspiracy.

 

Yeah, but what if when killing him, Rey released him and he lives on in her and will manifest himself in 10 or so years and we pick up from there? 

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34 minutes ago, SilverTrumpet said:

Yeah, but what if when killing him, Rey released him and he lives on in her and will manifest himself in 10 or so years and we pick up from there? 

 

Shit I hope not. How do you even defeat an invincible antagonist? What would even be the point fighting him at that point?

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1 hour ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

Shit I hope not. How do you even defeat an invincible antagonist? What would even be the point fighting him at that point?

 

Shhhhh. It's new Star Wars. Aren't you happy there's new Star Wars all the time? It's the best timeline. I LOVE STAR WARS.

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6 hours ago, SilverTrumpet said:

I really don't know who's real and who's trolling anymore, so I'll just leave this here that proves there was no plan:

 

https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/rian-johnson-explains-how-he-crafted-the-last-jedis-character-arcs

 

 

One of the very many accounts of Rian Johnson saying they gave him a blank slate to do whatever the hell he wanted. There was no plan. They were too arrogant and thought they could tell a coherent story with three radically different visions and no collaboration outside of requesting a quick character swap out in the last scene of the first two movies.

 

If writer/director interviews can be submitted as 'proof', let's read this one with JJ Abrams from December 2015:

 

“The script for VIII is written. I’m sure rewrites are going to be endless, like they always are. But what Larry and I did was set up certain key relationships, certain key questions, conflicts. And we knew where certain things were going. We had meetings with Rian and Ram Bergman, the producer of VIII. They were watching dailies when we were shooting our movie. We wanted them to be part of the process, to make the transition to their film as seamless as possible.”

 

“Rian has asked for a couple of things here and there that he needs for his story. He is an incredibly accomplished filmmaker and an incredibly strong writer. So the story he told took what we were doing and went in the direction that he felt was best but that is very much in line with what we were thinking as well. But you’re right—that will be his movie; he’s going to do it in the way he sees fit. He’s neither asking for nor does he need me to oversee the process.”

 

6 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

That's absolutely ridiculous. There's nothing funny or amusing about what she said, so to say it's a skit is not only stupid but is factually incorrect. The saga is finished, the character of Palpatine is dead. There is no reason for them to keep diverting like this. Not everything is a fucking conspiracy.

 

In that interview, Daisy Ridley didn't say 'There was no plan.' She only said that she didn't know about Rey's lineage.

 

Ian McDiarmid said 'he was contacted by JJ about a year before the middle of filming of IX' to return as The Emperor, and he agreed to do so. (That would have been late 2017 or early 2018.) If that's true - and given the substantial canon and musical evidence that indicates that the Emperor's return was planned long before that - only two explanations exist regarding Daisy Ridley's latest comments:

 

1. She simply wasn't told the truth about Rey's lineage.

2. The Josh Gad interview was another skit.

 

3 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Shit I hope not. How do you even defeat an invincible antagonist? What would even be the point fighting him at that point?

 

The Sith are not "invincible". Based on the current canon explanation, the conglomerate Sith spirit requires a suitable body (or vessel) in which to "pass into". (It's even possible that 'killing' in anger would also be required.) But without a subsequent vessel, it follows that destruction of their current 'body' would result in them being truly gone.

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Nonsense? "It's ironic."

 

I already proved that your musical analysis was 'nonsense' @Manakin Skywalker. Let's now talk about the 'books' you should be reading.

 

The Emperor and his direct subordinate (Galius Rax) were featured in the Aftermath trilogy of novels, the first of which was released months before The Force Awakens film. In the third book (last released 10 months before TLJ), Palpatine's Contingency plan included a Sith ceremony on Jakku of all places. In it, it was revealed that Palpatine's acolytes intended to "revivify him, bringing his soul back to flesh anew."

 

I asked you about this earlier, but you failed to address it. Care to comment now?

 

Palpatine said "Kill him. Kill him now." to Anakin in Revenge of the Sith.

Palpatine revealed to Kylo Ren, "I have been every voice you have ever heard inside your head."

In the TFA novelization: "Kill him, a voice inside her head said. It was amorphous, unidentifiable, raw. Pure vengeful emotion. So easy, she told herself. So quick. She recoiled from it. From the dark side."

 

Is your explanation still that Rey only heard her "inner-monologue" that spoke with "amorphous, unidentifiable, raw. Pure vengeful emotion." ... and that all of these connections are coincidental and/or meant nothing at the time... and still don't?

 

Are you aware that, in most Star Wars episodes, the protagonists heard 'voices in their heads' in their climactic confrontations (and in nearly every episode at other times of the stories)? If you were not aware of this, perhaps you should read those books instead of engaging with someone who is adept at exposing your seemingly endless ignorance.

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On 10/11/2020 at 4:33 PM, Falstaft said:

Williams did not know what the plan was, who Rey's parents were, what the Emperor's role was. None of it. Gosh, I have a recording of him saying at a Boston Pops concert following TFA that he had no clue whatsoever who Rey's parents were. And he even reieterated as much again, that he was surprised at the film's reveals, at a smaller-scale Q&A event at Tanglewood just last year, after the majority of TROS scoring had happened. 

 

I never claimed that Williams knew what the plan was, who Rey's parents were, or what the Emperor's role was. But considering only the facts (that is, the contents of the films and canon), it's obvious that Williams was told to compose Rey's Theme and Kylo's motif to incorporate The Emperor's Theme. Why would he have been told that, you may ask? Well, in case you weren't aware, Palpatine is the villain of this saga.

 

If Williams was told any of the above information, then he has kept up 'the act' of not knowing anything about 'a plan' for the trilogy or Saga, just like nearly every other cast and crew member that has commented on this topic.

 

Perhaps the cast and crew were on a need-to-know basis, with most knowing little-to-nothing about 'the plan'. But it's quite possible that this controversy is a ruse perpetrated by the Lucasfilm writers and executives, a theory supported by the facts.

 

On 10/11/2020 at 4:33 PM, Falstaft said:

If there were some deep, pre-planned connection intended between Rey, Kylo, and the Emperor's theme, don't you think Williams would have musically developed any of them in such a way to suggest those latent relationships, particularly in TROS? Instead, they're left mostly to their own devices. Heck, Williams even seems to supress the similarities when the moment would be obvious or opportune. Note, for example, the way the tail end of the Emperor's theme simply dissolves at 4:07 of Track 1 "Fanfare and Prologue" when that would have been the perfect place to tie his and Kylo Ren's motifs together.

 

My advice for you is to allow the screenwriters to write and Williams to compose. You, on the other hand, should have been consuming - and reflecting on - the canon material, most notably the rather enlightening novelizations and the most important story arcs of Clone Wars. (Like the rest of the fans, you've certainly had more than enough time to do so.)

 

On 10/11/2020 at 4:33 PM, Falstaft said:

The motivic similarities are happy coincidences -- not exactly trivial from a music structural or stylistic standpoint, but definitively, demonstrably not evidence of any sort of long-range plan.

 

Five notes in a row from the theme of the through-line villain of the Saga - who revealed a major connection to the new character - is not a 'motivic similarity' or a 'happy coincidence'. What ignorant, silly ways to describe these obviously deliberate connections.

 

14 hours ago, Falstaft said:

Oh, I wouldn't say that. @Manakin Skywalker pointed out, correctly, that Williams tends to use the same scale for villains -- C-D-Eb-F#-G-Ab-B, sometimes called Hungarian Minor, among other things. This is accurate, about as far from "musically illiterate" as imaginable. And it's also something that plenty of others have noted at numerous junctures on this board.

 

Interesting. And I have "noted" in this thread many forms of Star Wars evidence - including film and canon excerpts, reoccurring character traits and themes, as well as pertinent comments from George Lucas himself - that, when assembled - indicate a clear plan for grand narrative of the Saga, which very much includes the (already infamous) Sequel Trilogy.

 

14 hours ago, Falstaft said:

No one is disputing that the last phrase of the Emperor's Theme is mirrored--quite uncannily, if inexactly--in Kylo Ren's main motif. You don't need to be a musical cryptographer to discern that; it's an ear-catching similarity. I recall many folks pointing it out within hours of TFA premiering back in 2015 and speculating what, if anything, it meant.

 

After the TFA premiered back in 2015, those who understood the intended lessons* and reasons for the Saga to have been created should have known that it was the Emperor had been messing with Kylo's mind, as he had Luke and Anakin in their trilogies.

 

*primarily, to teach (young) people how to deal with pure evil incarnate and the repercussions / rewards of one's choices

 

The musical clues (The Emperor's Theme hidden within Kylo's motif and Rey's Theme) should have cemented this 'theory'. In honesty, this Saga is quite simple, but people are acting like it had no pre-planned direction. (An all-new villain to end the Saga? The last Skywalker will die un-redeemed? Rey Kenobi? Rey Nobody? Good grief, people! Get with the program!)

 

14 hours ago, Falstaft said:

What isn't "proven" -- if such a thing is even possible in music analysis -- is that this is anything more than an accident. Considering how often Williams likes to repeat himself across the scores, how brief and simple this musical idea is, how in the dark he himself claimed to be as to the narrative direction of the saga, and how little in the way of musical corroboration there is of this connection in any of the ST soundtracks, I place more credence on it being a happy accident. Not, however, an unmeaningful one. We're allowed to relish all connections of this sort, as they contribute to the consistency and suggestiveness of this 9-film soundscape. But not some irrefutable evidence of a master-plan. 

 

Again, five notes in a row from the theme of the through-line villain of the Saga is not "an accident". John Williams does not compose accidentally. The theme for one of the new main characters - who was revealed to have been manipulated by the Emperor his entire life - is a "happy accident"? Are you serious?

 

Add in the rising/falling minor thirds to open Rey's Theme - when she ended up being a Palpatine - and how nice and neat it is for this all to have worked out as it did!

 

While I agree that this is not "irrefutable evidence of a master-plan" of which Williams was told, anyone who has read my (canon evidence-filled) posts and also respects John Williams as a musical genius - but doesn't think he was told to compose Rey's and Kylo's themes to include The Emperor's Theme after what happened in IX... is in a severe state of denial.

 

14 hours ago, Falstaft said:

Who knows, maybe some day we'll get Williams's sketchbooks and see that, indeed, he did knowingly tease Kylo's motto out of a portion of the Emperor's theme he probably hadn't heard himself since 1983. That would be awesome. Nothing I've seen yet suggests this the case.

 

You must have forgotten that The Emperor's Theme was used throughout the Prequel Trilogy. (One particular use in Revenge of the Sith should have raised eyebrows.)

 

You will soon realize that you have not given John Williams the credit he deserves.... because you haven't given George Lucas and the writers at Lucasfilm the proper credit either... because you haven't realized something major regarding the Saga... that was baked-in from the beginning.

 

Because I was once as ignorant as the average fan, I now understand that this current - and prevalent - state of 'Star Wars Disenchantment' stems from the fact that the vast majority of Star Wars fans do not understand the Saga very well at all. Let me assure you, Lucasfilm understands it perfectly.

 

Finally, I posed this question to @Manakin Skywalker but he has yet to respond:

 

If the first six notes of Kylo's motif (including its parenthetical note) happened to be all six notes (in order) from the corresponding phrase from The Emperor's Theme, what you would conclude?

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Provide Mattriss with reasonable doubt for his unfounded assertions to try and rationalize the similarities in thematic connections:

 

Mattriss: 'bUT fIvE NOtEs iN a rOw'

 

Everyone should realize by now that it's useless to argue with someone who changes the definition of evidence to fit their own criteria. How do you reason with someone who doesn't value reason?

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Arpy said:

How do you reason with someone who doesn't value reason?

1/ Continue to reason, in the hope that greater, and more open, minds will finally win Mattris over

2/ Ignore

3/ Send the boys 'round, with baseball bats, because you "need to re-educate one of the brothers".

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5 hours ago, Mattris said:

You must have forgotten that The Emperor's Theme was used throughout the Prequel Trilogy. (One particular use in Revenge of the Sith should have raised eyebrows.)

 

Oh, I should have been clearer: I meant the relevant concluding phrase of The Emperor's Theme, which as far as I know was never once used in the PT. 

 

I'm genuinely curious which usage in ROTS you have in mind? 

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6 hours ago, Mattris said:

If the first six notes of Kylo's motif (including its parenthetical note) happened to be all six notes (in order) from the corresponding phrase from The Emperor's Theme, what you would conclude?

 

If Kylo's motif used all six notes, which it doesn't, perhaps I'd think differently. However 5/6 notes is not nearly enough to call "proof". You're looking into things that just aren't there.

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3 hours ago, Arpy said:

Provide Mattriss with reasonable doubt for his unfounded assertions to try and rationalize the similarities in thematic connections:

 

Mattriss: 'bUT fIvE NOtEs iN a rOw'

 

Everyone should realize by now that it's useless to argue with someone who changes the definition of evidence to fit their own criteria. How do you reason with someone who doesn't value reason?

 

Considering all that I've said since Page 134, @Arpywhat "reasonable doubt" have you provided? What of my conclusions and theories are "unfounded assertions"?

 

My definition of evidence: Excerpts from the films, novelizations, and other official canon material.

 

I will also except statements from the cast and crew that 'fit my narrative'... notably statements that uttered before The Force Awakens came out, including the interviews on the red carpet of its world premiere.

 

1 hour ago, Falstaft said:

Oh, I should have been clearer: I meant the relevant concluding phrase of The Emperor's Theme, which as far as I know was never once used in the PT. 

 

I'm genuinely curious which usage in ROTS you have in mind? 

 

From memory, I think it was used in TPM: the Sidious hologram transmission scene before we are taken back to the trio heading 'though the planet core'. In any case, thinking that John Williams had forgotten any phrases of this theme of the Saga is selling him short... which we, of all people, should never do.

 

Please answer the questions I posed to you in my last message, and I'll tell you which curious usage of the theme I had in mind.

 

22 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

If Kylo's motif used all six notes, which it doesn't, perhaps I'd think differently. However 5/6 notes is not nearly enough to call "proof". You're looking into things that just aren't there.

 

All things considered - most notably, the direction of the story and Ren and Rey's character arcs - 5 out of 6 notes in a row is very strong evidence of intent. Would you agree?

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17 minutes ago, Mattris said:

All things considered - most notably, the direction of the story and Ren and Rey's character arcs - 5 out of 6 notes in a row is very strong evidence of intent. Would you agree?

 

Indeed I would had Palpatine's involvement always been part of the plan.

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3 hours ago, Falstaft said:

If that's what you had in mind -- measures 1-6 of 2M1 -- then I hate to say it but you're misremembering. The theme never reaches that Kylo-esque phrase, but instead completes the Emperor's themes first 4-measures in Gm and then modulates for a 2 measure partial statement in Fm. And this kind of reworking of the leitmotif is characteristic. There is not one rendition of the Emperor's theme through the PT that has the relevant concluding phrase.

 

My mistake. The fact that the phrase isn't introduced chronologically until Episode VI makes it all that more relevant when it's used as Kylo's motif in VII.

 

3 hours ago, Falstaft said:

Quite the contrary, we of all people, knowing full well the often ad-hoc nature of Williams's scoring style and the limits of his memory, should be more skeptical of these purported "deep" connections than the average listener. We all know the famous examples of, shall we say, thematic amnesia in his corpus. But I'll add that, when I asked him last summer how he keeps all his motifs straight across these 9 films, he said that he tries but doesn't always succeed. (He went on to give an amusing anecdote about mixing up a few of his character themes while scoring 1941 and, when he apologized to Spielberg, he laughed and said he didn't notice or care).

 

That's a good story. But it doesn't begin to explain away the abundantly-obvious connection here. Add in the repeated rising/falling minor thirds that open (and are central) to Rey's Theme (just like The Emperor's Theme), and it's amazing that so many John Williams fans seriously think this could all be one big happenstance, even after the shocking story and character revelations of Episode IX, with both characters so importantly tied to the Emperor himself.

 

More so than the other two trilogies, it should be clear now that the Sequel Trilogy intended to be mysterious and intriguing in the progression of its story and character arcs. It should also be clear now that the reveals in the third film were designed to for maximum impact, especially for the ignorant - and less-than-savvy - viewers who weren't aware that Palpatine is the phantom menace and villain of the Saga, representing the Devil.

 

Those assuming that the screenwriters hadn't decided what 'the dealio' was with Rey and Kylo Ren until after VIII was written, until after JJ 'came back for IX', or even during its production have a long way to go in realizing the truth of it all, or should I say, admitting they were fools for not 'getting it' sooner.

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@Mattris, have you ever heard of Occam''s razor?  The simplest explanation for the sequel trilogy is that everyone is telling the truth. There was no plan for Rey's parentage.  It was decided on while filming Episode 9. 

And I believe Palpatine was brought back because Johnson had Snoke killed off and Abrams wanted a big bad guy that would unite Rey and Kylo. 

 

Nothing posted here has convinced me otherwise. 

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On 10/12/2020 at 6:19 AM, Mattris said:

Rey's first words in The Force Awakens ("Tal'ama parqual!") are an anagram for "I am a Palpatine."  Some characters need to be flipped or mirrored (which form "pine", as in Pinewood Studios, where the films principal photography took place). Also, an 'r' is leftover... for "Rey".

 

What the hell is this?  Where does pine come into this at all?

Also, the guy that posts Star Wars Theory is a tool. 

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On 10/12/2020 at 4:25 PM, Mattris said:

That's clearly what JJ wanted you to think. Did you not understand the "effective Jedi trap"? You took the bait. Big mistake!

 

By the end of the trilogy, it's clear (to me) that Rey did not go on The Hero's Journey. While ever well-intentioned, she remained selfish and naive... and never grew as a person. In numerous moments of weakness, Rey played right into the Devil's hands... and eventually made the biggest single mistake of the Saga.

 

The most effective Jedi trap is you keeping people drawn in here, when even Disney and the actors involved already forgot these films.

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@gkgyver  I'm merely providing evidence that indicates deliberate, creative design by Lucasfilm that spans the Saga and gives new meaning to its grand narrative and themes.

 

You're choosing to keep coming back... to deny the legitimacy of my findings. But if I 'set a trap', then you - and many others - completely fell for it. (And if I'm proven right, you - and many others - will have a lot of egg on your face.)

 

7 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Sure you can.

 

Be funny again like with that batshit anagram bollocks.

 

First of all, @Chen G., I'm not here to amuse you.

 

Among other reasons, I'm here to to prove to you're a fool. Not just because you continue to post in this Star Wars thread when you (still) know relatively little about its lore and canon material.

 

Not even because you don't believe a word of what George Lucas has to say about his work.

 

But because you are now clearly on a mission to troll me, even though I was proven correct about the Emperor's return to the fore and his primary goal in Episode IX... when you and many others here thought I was nuts. Oops!

 

When I'm proven right again (and about basically everything I've noted since Page 134), I won't rub it in your face... because someone not worth further time and effort will provide no satisfaction.

 

Henceforth, you'll have to find a way to spend your time here - and eventually deal with your failure and embarrassment - without me. Along with seeing Episode X, I have to say, I'm looking forward to witnessing your scrambling to save face!

 

7 hours ago, Demodex said:

@Mattris, have you ever heard of Occam''s razor?  The simplest explanation for the sequel trilogy is that everyone is telling the truth. There was no plan for Rey's parentage.  It was decided on while filming Episode 9. 

And I believe Palpatine was brought back because Johnson had Snoke killed off and Abrams wanted a big bad guy that would unite Rey and Kylo. 

 

Nothing posted here has convinced me otherwise. 

 

No, the simplest explanation is that the Star Wars Saga logically progressed. All of George Lucas' notes and treatments were consulted, and a basic plan was formulated by the Lucasfilm executives, JJ Abrams, and Lawrence Kasdan before any shooting began.

 

No hard evidence suggests that "There was no plan for Rey's parentage. It was decided on while filming Episode 9." None. The facts regarding Rey (her strong affinity with the Force, dark side tendencies, Sidious-like lightsaber technique, English accent, the big mystery about her character... but without Palpatine being on-the-nose involved in VII) support the notion that Rey was either going to be a relative - or creation - of Emperor Palpatine. (It turned out that she was a decedent of his clone. Clever.) And with the other main character - of Skywalker blood - having inexplicably turned to the dark side, looking back on it, of course Emperor Palpatine had manipulated him, consistent with his role in this Saga.

 

"...everyone is telling the truth." Really?

 

December 2015, JJ said, "But what Larry and I did was set up certain key relationships, certain key questions, conflicts. And we knew where certain things were going. We had meetings with Rian and Ram Bergman, the producer of VIII. They were watching dailies when we were shooting our movie. We wanted them to be part of the process, to make the transition to their film as seamless as possible. Rian has asked for a couple of things here and there that he needs for his story. He is an incredibly accomplished filmmaker and an incredibly strong writer. So the story he told took what we were doing and went in the direction that he felt was best but that is very much in line with what we were thinking as well."

 

At the TFA premiere, when JJ was asked if there was a part in the film that he especially wanted the audience to see, he said, "I gotta say, I'm so pleased with the performances in the movie. And every sequence, there's something that I think 'Oh my God. Look what she did or look what he did. And that's so cool.' So you know, whether or not those things will mean anything to anyone else remains to be seen."

 

To another TFA premiere interviewer, he said, "I'm trying to serve whatever the master is, which I think is always the story and characters."

 

Do you think he was telling the truth?

 

Recently, Chris Terrio (co-writer of IX) said, "Kathy had this overall vision that we had to be telling the same story for nine episodes. Although from the sleight of hand of Episode VII and Episode VIII, you wouldn’t necessarily know immediately that we were telling the same story. She thought it would be a very strong end for the ninth movie. This fits well with J.J. because he loves magic tricks."

 

Do you think he was telling the truth?

 

Gwendoline Christie, also at the TFA premiere: "I really think what Lucasfilm and Disney have done is to honor the origin of the films that we've all loved and had such an impact on so many people. But to be modern in the choices they made. And I think that is what will speak to people."

 

Do you think she was telling the truth?

 

 

I also submit these interviews with Mark Hamill from - you guessed it - the TFA premiere:

 

 

"The whole idea of trying to recapture the past - that's a big mistake. (Interviewer: "Always moving forward.") Exactly. So you have to blend these characters in and see how they can help the story as they are now, rather than try to be 25 years old again."

 

 

 

Regarding the mystery of Luke, "It's showmanship that P.T. Barnum would appreciate 'cause I had no idea they could make a thing out of that, but there you go. I mean, everything about Star Wars is unpredictable and bigger than you expected."

 

P.T. Barnum, eh, Mark? Curious.

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Recently, Chris Terrio (co-writer of IX) said, "Kathy had this overall vision that we had to be telling the same story for nine episodes. Although from the sleight of hand of Episode VII and Episode VIII, you wouldn’t necessarily know immediately that we were telling the same story. She thought it would be a very strong end for the ninth movie. This fits well with J.J. because he loves magic tricks."

 

Do you think he was telling the truth?

This is evidence to me that after having nowhere to go after how Rian left things in TLJ, what Terrio and Abrams wrote was to try and retroactively join multiple elements that weren't  intended to be so it would make sense. 

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4 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

What's the latest Williams score you've listened to, Mattris?

 

I bet its The Patriot. Between the main title and one of the track titles, I bet he could do an anagram to "prove" Benjamin Martin is a Palpatine, too.

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