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52 minutes ago, Mattris said:

No hard evidence suggests that "There was no plan for Rey's parentage. It was decided on while filming Episode 9." None. 

 

Except what Daisy Ridley says. Was she a Palpatine in Trevorrow's script?  If not, then did they just forget to tell him?  😄

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In response to several posts, I'm taking the liberty of creating this thread as a response to a problem plaguing a number of members here: SWD, Star Wars Disenchantment. It's a common problem, but one

You know what they say, "one man's nightmare is another man's fetish"   In this thread: Mattris: says lots of weird things Everyone: that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever hear

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Henceforth, you'll have to find a way to spend your time here - and eventually deal with your failure and embarrassment - without me. (Along with seeing Episode X, I'm looking forward to witnessing your scrambling to save face!)

 

You're acting as if any of us give a shit if we're wrong. Being wrong isn't an embarrassment or failure. Honestly if I ever found out my points were incorrect, which for right now I doubt, it would affect me in absolutely no way. The narcissism is strong with you!

 

1 hour ago, Demodex said:

Except what Daisy Ridley says. Was she a Palpatine in Trevorrow's script?  If not, then did they just forget to tell him?  😄

 

An excellent point that I had forgotten to bring up! @Mattris, have you had the chance to read Colin Trevorrow's original script? Palpatine is not in it at all and Kylo becomes the lead antagonist.

 

...Watch, he'll probably end up saying "that's why Colin was fired!" ROTFLMAO

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7 hours ago, Arpy said:

This is evidence to me that after having nowhere to go after how Rian left things in TLJ, what Terrio and Abrams wrote was to try and retroactively join multiple elements that weren't  intended to be so it would make sense. 

 

"Nowhere to go"? Consistent with the narrative of the Saga, it was always 'going this way'. Always.

"... retroactively join multiple elements that weren't intended to be so it would make sense."  Such as?

 

"Rian left things in TLJ" that perfectly set-up the villain of the Saga to return to exact his revenge and, once again, rise to power. Palpatine also took credit for manipulating Kylo by being the 'voices in his head'. Shame so many people missed this call-back from the beginning of the film, when at the climax, a weakened Rey heard voices in her head that wanted her to "Rise!" and defeat Palpatine, even though he had previous warned her of the dire consequences of killing him.

 

I will also say that it's the audience at large hasn't suspected if Palpatine had been responsible for other... questionable circumstance and events of the previous films. As I have alluded to in previous pages in this thread, I can assure you, he most certainly was.

 

"Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design." - Emperor Palpatine, shortly before the Battle of Endor

 

6 hours ago, Demodex said:

Except what Daisy Ridley says. Was she a Palpatine in Trevorrow's script?  If not, then did they just forget to tell him?  😄

 

I already addressed what Daisy Ridley recently said... and Trevorrow's script. No, they did not "just forget to tell him". They probably told him to write the exact opposite of where they knew the story was headed: Kylo, the last Skywalker dies un-redeemed, Rey is a nobody, barely a mention of Palpatine. The entire project was a brainstorming exercise and a distraction.

 

On that note, how (in)convenient was it that his script - and its pre-production art - should 'leak' when it did? What amazing timing to prove Lucasfilm's ineptitude! Given all I've learned, the logical explanation is that the script and art were just another form of "irresistible bait".

 

6 hours ago, gkgyver said:

@Mattris

You sound like the madmen who retroactively want to construct a Legend Of Zelda timeline. 

 

And JJ be like Nintendo: "If you come up with something good, we might make it canon." 

 

Nah, I'm just among the "best and brightest" and have "passed the test". (phrases taken fro the first Aftermath novel, released over three months before The Force Awakens).

 

5 hours ago, gkgyver said:

They hired Trevorrow to write a decoy script. 

The art department was in it, too, because they did designs for it. 

 

I seriously doubt the art department was in on the decoy. Those employees were just doing their jobs.

 

5 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

You're acting as if any of us give a shit if we're wrong. Being wrong isn't an embarrassment or failure. Honestly if I ever found out my points were incorrect, which for right now I doubt, it would affect me in absolutely no way. The narcissism is strong with you!

 

When you realize just how much you've missed throughout the Saga, I expect you will 'give a shit if you're wrong'.

 

I'm reminded of this thought Snoke had, from The Last Jedi novelization:

 

"Snoke's eyes glittered with feral amusement. Few things were more entertaining than an opponent who mistook a little bit of information for the entire picture. Their downfalls were so much more satisfying - provided that before the end, they were confronted by the sheer scope of their folly and failure."

 

Didn't Force ghost Yoda speak of "folly" and "failure" in that same film... and address Luke as "young Skywalker"? Very curious...

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Oh, so you know definitively that Trevorrow was told something else? Pretty sure he was let go because they didn't like the direction he was taking it.

The script clearly negates the ideas later brought about Terrio and Abrams. How arrogant and deluded can you be to suggest that the millions of dollars spent in pre production on Trevorrow's film (all the artists, the models, the props etc.) was 'just an exercise in brainstorming'. Disney and LFL wouldn't have let it get as far as it did if it was anything more than a pitch meeting, dumbass. More unfounded assertions and delusions...

 

Whilst I believe there was a rough plan from the beginning, what's clear is that the three directors (Abrams, Johnson and Trevorrow) were given license to take the story in different directions. Nothing about TFA or TLJ suggests or suggested back then that Palpatine would return or Rey's lineage was linked to that character.

 

Only with Abrams' and Terrio's later revisions with TRoS can you say they work, which is why I said it makes sense in hindsight - because that's why the last film was written that way - to tie all these strands together. The way self-fulfilling prophecies were written in the Bible. 

 

Oh, and it's not just about Rey - Finn, Poe, Han, Leia, Rose, etc. all had changes made over the course of the trilogy that disrupt the idea of a perfectly knit together structure you so hotly propagate.

 

You have an annoying habit of expanding the parameters of your theory to conveniently  answer everything and anything, convincing yourself that nothing can contradict it.

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9 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

I'm no psychologist, but isn't Mattriss displaying several common symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder?

 

I'm no psychologist either, but I suspect it is just an extreme case of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

Fortunately, when this involves completely irrelevant topics, it is just funny.

14 hours ago, Falstaft said:

Quite the contrary, we of all people, knowing full well the often ad-hoc nature of Williams's scoring style and the limits of his memory, should be more skeptical of these purported "deep" connections than the average listener. We all know the famous examples of, shall we say, thematic amnesia in his corpus. But I'll add that, when I asked him last summer how he keeps all his motifs straight across these 9 films, he said that he tries but doesn't always succeed. (He went on to give an amusing anecdote about mixing up a few of his character themes while scoring 1941 and, when he apologized to Spielberg, he laughed and said he didn't notice or care).

 

Did you talk with JW? :o  If you already spoke about that, I must have missed it. Anything else that you can share (maybe in another thread)? 

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2 hours ago, Mattris said:

Trevorrow's script. No, they did not "just forget to tell him". They probably told him to write the exact opposite of where they knew the story was headed: Kylo, the last Skywalker dies un-redeemed, Rey is a nobody, barely a mention of Palpatine. The entire project was a brainstorming exercise and a distraction.


And the prize goes to @gkgyver!

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No, @Arpy, I don't "know definitively" what Trevorrow was told. But the fact is, his Episode IX (ironically entitled Duel of the Fates) is diametrically opposed to reality:

Palpatine is the villain of the Saga. Maybe Trevorrow was told nothing. Perhaps he didn't understand the Star Wars Saga and pumped out a stinker after two years on the job... and was officially 'let go' from the project. He was given official credit for some of his ideas that were used. Fine.

 

"Pretty sure he was let go because they didn't like the direction he was taking it."  Do you have any substantive evidence to support this theory?

 

If Trevorrow's script was part of the "effective Jedi trap" - which, in the SW galaxy, was designed by the Sith - then this most elaborate distraction would fit right into it.

 

As I've mentioned before, major elements have been baked-in to all of the films of the Saga as definitive proof that Palpatine had not been destroyed forever at the end of VI. But the fandom is unaware of these elements and think that Star Wars is currently in a low point and/or those in charge of Lucasfilm don't understand Star Wars. How naive and short-sighted.

 

"... the three directors (Abrams, Johnson and Trevorrow) were given license to take the story in different directions. Nothing about TFA or TLJ suggests or suggested back then that Palpatine would return or Rey's lineage was linked to that character."

 

I'll just say it bluntly: You don't understand the Star Wars Saga very well. The contents of TFA and TLJ, their novelizations, the novelizations of the other six films, and the canon material released 2015-2017 all point to the reality that Palpatine had to return after ROTJ. Once you realize what I have - however that happens - you'll know this to have been true... since 1983.

 

On that note, do you have any thoughts on that Snoke quote from The Last Jedi novelization?

 

"... retroactively join multiple elements that weren't intended to be so it would make sense."  Such as?

 

"More unfounded assertions and delusions..."  What are they, again? How does what I'm asserting not make sense in the grander scheme, in universe and in the real world?

 

Everything does work because it was planned from the start. You even said that you "believe there was a rough plan from the beginning." If so, then Trevorrow was clearly kept out of the loop... or he was told very clearly what not to include in his version. Abrams and Terrio did not create a 'later revision'. The Rise of Skywalker is essentially the polar opposite of Trevorrow's work.

 

"... the last film was written that way - to tie all these strands together."   Oh, you have no idea how true that statement is.

 

And I find it a bit ironic that you speak of the Bible... and think that George Lucas and Lucasfilm don't understand the methods and motivations of The Devil... and that he cannot be physically destroyed by violent means. In fact, Episode IX - and, by extension, VI - made it clear that he must be physically 'killed' in anger so as to continue his life by moving his Sith spirit into another body... with immortality as his goal. That, and ruling the galaxy, with seduced - and subjugated - pieces that make up his galactic chess board.

 

"Finn, Poe, Han, Leia, Rose, etc. all had changes made over the course of the trilogy that disrupt the idea of a perfectly knit together structure you so hotly propagate."

There is this thing called character development. Elaborate on this point, if you please.

 

'The parameters of my theory' include the lore of this well-established galaxy, the contents of the official canon material, comments by trilogy Executive Producer JJ Abrams, and George Lucas himself.

 

What do you have? Opinions and ignorant, incomplete assessments? 'This actor said something about their experience making the movie!' These kinds of things cannot be submitted as evidence if you truly want to arrive at the truth.

 

'Everything and anything' can be 'conveniently answered' if one sticks to the facts, which don't care about opinions or how adamantly someone thought something to be true... or an entire fandom, for that matter.

 

Considering the shocking discoveries and realizations I've made by consuming the clue-rich canon and watching the films closely, I need no further "convincing" of Lucasfilm's cunning plan for this Saga... and beyond.

 

It's clear to me that the elements surrounding this controversy that contradict my line of thinking only exist because Disney and Lucasfilm quickly realized that the fans at large didn't 'get' this trilogy, mostly due to their assumptions (Rey is a Mary Sue!, little-to-no plan for the trilogy, JJ's a hack, etc.), ignorance (the Saga was already complete because Anakin fulfilled that Prophesy, Palpatine can be violently killed even though he wanted Luke to kill him, etc.), and pride ('I didn't get what I wanted from this trilogy, so screw Disney and the new Lucasfilm!' , 'I shouldn't have to think deeply about these action/adventure movies.' , 'If the story and character arcs are not easily discernible from the films alone, then the story-tellers failed!' , 'The films alone should tell me everything I need to know. Additional elements like unnecessary exposition and clarification should have been presented on-the-nose in the films!')

 

Consistent with many quotes from P.T. Barnum - who Mark Hamill mentioned in a pre-TFA interview I posted at the bottom of the last page - I theorize that Lucasfilm decided to go all in on the "effective Jedi trap": Rian Johnson claimed he was allowed to do basically whatever he wanted with Episode VIII, Mark Hamill changed his tune about the direction of his character (and even called him 'Jake Skywalker'), The Force Is Female, 'leaked' Trevorrow script that didn't involve Palpatine and Kylo died unredeemed, etc.

 

After what happened in IX, those who still can't fathom that this self-deprecating behavior from Disney, Lucasfilm, and the many current and former employees has turned into one big troll job don't understand the Star Wars Saga... and what's at stake here: The legacy of George Lucas and the credibility of every fan and employee that has been involved with Star Wars.

 

In truth, most Star Wars fans don't understand that these stories within the Saga are fables with archetype characters, with Palpatine (the Sith) representing the Devil and pure evil. Focusing primarily on aspects of humanity, spirituality, and familial/generational issues, the stories were created to teach life lessons, with the hope that each audience member would become a better person for having gone on the journey.

 

Not understanding these basics is the central reason that so many fans 'know so much' that just isn't true.

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I don't care. I'm done.

 

Mattriss, if I were to properly respond to your posts, I'd need a team of assistants to comb this thread, piece together your arguments and then I'd need to write an essay only for you to deliver another quote-filled diatribe about how everyone else doesn't understand Star Wars like you do. I gave you the benefit of the doubt when you came here, I defended your opinions but this has gone too far and enough is enough.

 

 

You're a troll. Bye.

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37 minutes ago, Arpy said:

I don't care. I'm done.

 

Mattriss, if I were to properly respond to your posts, I'd need a team of assistants to comb this thread, piece together your arguments and then I'd need to write an essay only for you to deliver another quote-filled diatribe about how everyone else doesn't understand Star Wars like you do. I gave you the benefit of the doubt when you came here, I defended your opinions but this has gone too far and enough is enough.

 

You're a troll. Bye.

 

First of all, @Arpy, submitting canon evidence, logical explanations, answering your questions, and asking follow-up questions does not make me a "troll". (For an example of a troll, look no further than @Chen G. toward me.)

 

I took the time to thoroughly respond to every single point that you posed to me. The fact that you're too lazy "to comb this thread" for further context and information cannot be blamed on me.

 

In Episode IX, a naive, selfish, blood Palpatine never grew as a character and killed the Emperor as he wanted... very similar to the end of Episode VI. The Star Wars lore dictates that we have not seen 'The End' of this Saga.

 

The obvious explanation for the current state of Star Wars is that the fans are embarrassingly ignorant of the lore and contents of the canon... and that Disney/Lucasfilm know exactly what they're doing... and have massive pay-offs on the way that will finally make clear to the masses the reasoning and methods of this (perceived) madness.

 

The obvious explanation for why you've chosen to ignore me is that you realized that I'm far ahead of you on these topics, so far that you could not legitimately dispute my reasoning, and you have nothing new to offer.

 

I hope you'll return and re-engage with me when Star Wars gets... very interesting again.  :P

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Sure. Its been getting stale anyhow.

 

But I must admit I don't have anything new to say by way of actual rebuttles. Not because I concede to your arguments, mind you, but because they are complete bonkers.

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Thanks, Chen.

 

Well, if I didn't know... certain things*, I would agree, these are "bonkers" accusations and conclusions. But I can assure you, my theories check out, as they make sense of the entire Saga and indicate that many "bonkers" things that are still to come... because has not really concluded.

 

hundreds of consistent, individual clues in the films and canon material

 

 

Thoughts regarding that inner-monologue Snoke quote?  (I submit that it's directly related to my "bonkers" theory from a few months ago.)

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@Jay  The single fact that I'm annoying people does not make me a troll. And you could have gotten your point across without calling me out... or misspelling my name.

 

I'm just a passionate, knowledgeable Star Wars fan who posts in defense of my positions, findings, theories, and conclusions.

 

We're getting "so worked up about all this crap" because Star Wars means a lot to a lot of people.

 

And if I'm right, it's quite possible that we'll be getting at least one more John Williams Star Wars score because Daisy Ridley will certainly be in Episode X.

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blah blah blah

 

I have no problem with people debating Star Wars.  I don't care about it so this is a thread I would never read if I wasn't a mod.  But if people are going to be reporting posts I have to step in here

 

Hopefully people will calm down and I can go back to ignoring this discussion

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1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Episode X's already in the bag.

 

You think they shot a movie without telling anybody?

 

I mean that's...that's...that's a good joke; but not as good as the "Tal'ama Parqual!" one. Sorry.

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1 hour ago, gkgyver said:

@Mattris

 

Hiring an expensive scriptwriter for a script that was never to be used, to distract WHO? 

The audience who didn't know its content?

The fans who didn't know its content? 

The actors who were never gonna act it? 

JJ who was never gonna direct it? 

Kathleen Kennedy who never gave a shit? 

John Williams who couldn't even remember his own love theme when he was 20 years younger? 

The art department, to make them REALLY miserable about unused designs? 

 

So WHO do you think needed an ENTIRE and REAL and BOGUS script before and during movie production as a DISTRACTION? 

 

To distract Colin Trevorrow of course! The whole sequel trilogy was just an elaborate plot to piss him off.

 

Okay now I'm done replying... hopefully.

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Great, so we can move on now? Please?

 

I think, let’s agree that ‘some’ of us are unhappy with how Disney has handled Star Wars so far, but ‘some’ of us aren’t, so let’s just agree to disagree, and move on.

 

There are actually new angles to approach Star Wars disenchantment, and I’ll be the first to slaughter “the holy cow”: The Mandalorian.

 

It has to do with Baby Yoda, and how he seems to have the force as a toddler.

 

In Lucas’ Star Wars (not Disney’s, mind you), the force had to be learned and mastered before you could wield it.
 

In TESB, Yoda talked about how much training it took. Also, in the prequel trilogy, there’s a whole thing about younglings and apprentices, and the importance of learning how to use the force.

 

But here comes a new and shiny series that looks good on the surface, and looks and feels like Star Wars, but the makers seem to have forgot some of the ground rules (...maybe being influenced by how other Disney properties handed out crazy strong force abilities to untrained, force sensitive, characters. *ehem* *looking at you, Rey* *ehem*)


What do you think?

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I don't have a problem with that aspect of The Mandalorian.  The child has had 50 years to discover he could use, and practice using, the Force. 

 

Plus The Mandalorian is so good I didn't even notice this discrepancy.  It's not like bringing a character back from the dead with no explanation. 

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2 hours ago, rough cut said:

 

In Lucas’ Star Wars (not Disney’s, mind you), the force had to be learned and mastered before you could wield it.
 

In TESB, Yoda talked about how much training it took. Also, in the prequel trilogy, there’s a whole thing about younglings and apprentices, and the importance of learning how to use the force.

 

 

Not exactly.  The Phantom Menace made a point of how Anakin "must have Jedi reflexes" to be able to race pods, as he was the only human who could.  So clearly he was able to use the Force, even if he didn't consciously know it.  I felt as though The Child was doing the same thing, just operating on instinct.

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... as Rey's Force affinity can also be explained. She was of Palpatine blood... and also shared a Force Dyad bond with Ben Solo, with their minds, destinies, Force abilities linked.

 

@Demodex If you still don't accept or understand Emperor Palpatine's return this Saga, then you don't understand the point of his character to exist in it.

One cannot destroy a character representing The Devil and pure evil by tossing him down a hole. The climactic event in Return of the Jedi represented Anakin's rejection of the dark side - not the permanent destruction of this devious, deceptive, long-game-playing creature.

 

A list of clues of the powers and mind-set of Emperor Palpatine from the films:

 

- In ROTJ, Yoda warned Luke, "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor or suffer your father's fate, you will." Decades later, Luke lost his way due to the Emperor's influence, made a life-altering mistake, and eventually sacrificed himself to save his friends and family... just like Anakin.
- In ROTJ, Palpatine told Vader: "Everything is proceeding exactly as I have foreseen."  And to Luke: "Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design."
- Palpatine baited Luke, Vader, and the Rebel forces to kill him... clearly expecting to be killed. (He even commanded Luke to kill him... and Rey also.)
- In AOTC, clone troopers were engineered from a host, grown in vats, and infused with Palpatine's Order 66.
- In ROTS, Palpatine spoke of 'being afraid to loose power' and achieving "the ability to cheat death."
- In TFA, Kylo suggested using obedient clone troopers instead of "programmed" children.
- In TFA, the music for Snoke is all but identical to the music from the infamous 'Opera Scene' from ROTS. "It's ironic. He could save others from death... but not himself."
- In TLJ, The Emperor's Theme played note-for-note as Snoke invaded Rey's mind.
- In TROS, clones of Snoke were seen in vats in Palpatine's lair on Exegol.

- To Kylo, Palpatine said: “I made Snoke.” and “I’ve died before.” obviously referring to the destruction of his previous body at the hands of Anakin.
- When trying to understand how Emperor Palpatine had survived, the Rebel historian theorized, “Dark science. Cloning. Secrets only the Sith knew.”

- After regenerating by taking Rey and Ben's life energy, Emperor Palpatine exclaimed to his Sith Eternal followers: "Look what you have made!"

- To further his life unnaturally, it's clear now that Palpatine must be physically 'killed' in anger so that his Sith spirit can pass into another body - a cloned body of himself... or vessel strong enough to contain the immense Force energy of the Sith spirit.

- Also, dozens of mentions of Palpatine's future intent/plans - including cheating death - within the official canon material. For example, from the Aftermath: Empire's End novel (released Feb. 2017): Before the Battle of Endor, his personal confidant said, "My lord, I'm certain you will be victorious." Palpatine's response: "One way or another, I will be."

 

It has been made abundantly clear that Palpatine seeks to attain immortality. With so many explanations of his intentions and powers - and all of them considered in total - it should not be surprising in the slightest that this evil creature was revealed to have come "back from the dead" in Episode IX. Not at all.

 

And let's not forget this little detail: Emperor Palpatine is the villain of the Saga.  :devil:

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I quit reading when I realized none of those clues had anything to do with Palpatine returning. 

 

When you heard Episodes 7-9 were being made did you assume Palpatine was going to show up? 

 

We all assumed Palpatine died at the end of ROTJ. And that's how it should have remained. 

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5 hours ago, Matt S. said:

 

Not exactly.  The Phantom Menace made a point of how Anakin "must have Jedi reflexes" to be able to race pods, as he was the only human who could.  So clearly he was able to use the Force, even if he didn't consciously know it.  I felt as though The Child was doing the same thing, just operating on instinct.

And the first of the Jedi or generic Force Users started somehow, too.

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6 hours ago, Demodex said:

I quit reading when I realized none of those clues had anything to do with Palpatine returning. 

 

When you heard Episodes 7-9 were being made did you assume Palpatine was going to show up? 

 

We all assumed Palpatine died at the end of ROTJ. And that's how it should have remained. 

 

Every single one of those clues set-up Palpatine's inevitable return. Nine films in, it still amazes me how far behind you are... along with the majority of the fans. (But if you didn't read the entire post, how do you know that "none of those clues had anything to do with Palpatine returning"? Read it all.)

 

What I thought 8 years ago has no bearing on the facts and reality. (But I did predict Palpatine's return before IX's first trailer when all here thought I was nuts... so there's that.)

 

It's appropriate that you should mention assumptions, as they are one of the main reasons that people do not accept this trilogy as it relates to the Saga. But just like my personal thoughts, assumptions also have no bearing on the facts and reality. Considering the events of Episodes I-VI, the pure evil Devil of this parable would not have died (forever) so simply and easily when he wanted Luke to kill him just moments before. Wise up.

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I like the sequel films but even I know that the behind-the-scenes writing was kind of up in the air. But also, despite that IMO the films still hold together well.

 

But yeah, the production was--I hesitate to use the word mess because movie making isn't necessarily a straightforward process and inevitably will have a lot of hiccups--but the production wasn't sound.

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11 hours ago, rough cut said:

In Lucas’ Star Wars (not Disney’s, mind you), the force had to be learned and mastered before you could wield it.
 

In TESB, Yoda talked about how much training it took. Also, in the prequel trilogy, there’s a whole thing about younglings and apprentices, and the importance of learning how to use the force.

 

Yeah, except in Star Wars Luke uses it after having a whole of two minutes of training with Ben...

 

And remember that the whole "The Force runs strong in your family" thing wasn't a thing back then.

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@Mattris, ok, you win.  I guess I'm not as big a fan as I thought I was. 

 

Everyone I know was surprised by Palpatine's return and was pretty disappointed in Rey being a Palpatine. 

I guess none of us are as smart as you. 

I am humbled by your wisdom.  

 

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Ever since the trailer came out, I gave the filmmakers the benefit of the doubt and assumed he'll appear in the movie like a spectre or something; not that he would actually return in the flesh as the main antagonist.

 

If only...

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1 hour ago, Mattris said:

the Skywalkers died in self-sacrificial acts

 

which makes the whole "tragedy" aspect of it ring quite hollow. Lear doesn't get a redemptive, self-sacrificial death; neither does Oedipus.

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