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Star Wars Disenchantment


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2 minutes ago, TSMefford said:

I've heard plenty like it, but it looked absolutely cringe and pretentious to me. If I ever have to opportunity to watch it for free / included in a service I already have, then I might.

I can understand getting that impression, but I think that was mostly formed by external responses because the movie itself is quite humble

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29 minutes ago, TSMefford said:

I've heard plenty like it, but it looked absolutely cringe and pretentious to me.

 

It is and it isn't. 

 

Whatever it is, its a good movie; and I'm saying that without worshipping at its altar by any means.

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5 hours ago, TSMefford said:

I'm sure I'll take a look at it eventually. Curiosity always gets the better of me

 

If you truly care about Star Wars, you should be curious enough to read the film novelizations, starting with The Phantom Menace. But before you do, "You must unlearn what you have learned."

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That was the one that made it canon that Qui Gon and Obi Wan used Force Speed at the beginning...which I don’t think was a good idea because it raises questions at the end fight like why didn’t Obi Wan use it to clash with Maul before the shields went up?

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Doing so would have risked being killed by running into any one of the shields.

 

And what do you mean "that was the one"?

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8 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Doing so would have risked being killed by running into any one of the shields.

 

And what do you mean "that was the one"?

They seemed to be on a delay, don’t you think Obi Wan could’ve timed it given how fast they show they can move earlier? He makes the motion that he wants to move but can’t because he’s too slow

 

I meant just that, that’s the novel where that happens. It’s literally all I know about it

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Obi-Wan was unsure of the precise timing of laser walls, couldn't clearly see what was in front of him (including the pit not far from the last laser wall), and didn't want to rush into a lightsaber battle at Force Speed.

 

I knew you couldn't ignore me, @DarthDementous;)

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33 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Obi-Wan was unsure of the precise timing of laser walls, couldn't clearly see what was in front of him (including the pit not far from the last laser wall), and didn't want to rush into a lightsaber battle at Force Speed.

 

I knew you couldn't ignore me, @DarthDementous.

I’m ignoring the topic you’re not interested in discussing, I see no reason to ignore the other things you say

 

I’d have to watch the fight again but aren’t Obi Wan and Qui Gon separated during a pause in the fight? As in Qui Gon goes to meditate when Maul is on the other side. Couldn’t it be plausible that if Obi Wan could’ve force sped, he would’ve been able to be by his master’s side by the time the laser gate opened?

 

Also I’m not sure what you mean by Obi Wan’s vision being impaired when he’s in the laser corridor, could you elaborate?

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1 hour ago, DarthDementous said:

I’d have to watch the fight again but aren’t Obi Wan and Qui Gon separated during a pause in the fight? As in Qui Gon goes to meditate when Maul is on the other side. Couldn’t it be plausible that if Obi Wan could’ve force sped, he would’ve been able to be by his master’s side by the time the laser gate opened?

Qui Gon was injured by Darth Maul while the barrier was still up, thus preventing Obi Wan from assisting him. By the time Obi Wan cut Maul in half, Qui Gon was almost dead, anyway.

Why did Qui Gon's body not disappear, when he died?

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, The Big Man said:

Joker was shit

Copy that.

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Other than writing inconsistencies, all I can suggest as an in-universe explanation for why Jedi bodies don't disappear the moment they die is that maybe it takes a while for the 'soul' to let go before a Jedi becomes one with the Force? Likely not, they probably just wanted to have a funeral scene ala Darth Vader, who is another case of someone not vanishing immediately upon death. That being said, he's probably an exception given he was redeemed right at the end and is the chosen one.

Another possible explanation is that Obi Wan was so ready to die that he was able to just instantly transcend. I dunno, interesting to theorise about though

Looking at the fight again, there's this moment here (1:29)


Obi Wan jumps back up to the platform and starts booking it towards Maul, given that there were no obstacles in his way he should've used Force Speed here if it was one of his abilities - then he never would've gotten separated from Qui Gon and they would've likely been able to take out Maul

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3 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:

...they probably just wanted to have a funeral scene ala Darth Vader...

Are you sure? All we saw was Vader's costume and helmet. At no time did we see his body... Just saying :)

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Just now, Naïve Old Fart said:

Are you sure? All we saw was Vader's costume and helmet. At no time did we see his body... Just saying :)

It's possible it happened in transit so that the suit of armour was empty by the time it was put on the pyre, but definitely not at the moment of his death when Luke says goodbye to him, because he has to lug his corpse into a lambda shuttle

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1 hour ago, DarthDementous said:

Obi Wan jumps back up to the platform and starts booking it towards Maul, given that there were no obstacles in his way he should've used Force Speed here if it was one of his abilities - then he never would've gotten separated from Qui Gon and they would've likely been able to take out Maul

 

After Obi-Wan managed to get back on the same level as the duelers, he likely ran normally because Force Speed drains the user's energy, and he would have wanted to conserve his energy. In addition, it would be dangerous to move that fast on a rail-less catwalk, especially considering he was already somewhat fatigued.

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9 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

No, Luke doesn't "lug" anything. :lol:.

He gets Vader into the hanger bay, but at that time, he's still alive.

You’re right, the dragging we see is before he dies. However, the camera does hang on Vader’s body after he dies while Luke mourns him so we know it’s at least not an Obi Wan situation

 

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

After Obi-Wan managed to get back on the same level as the duelers, he likely ran normally because Force Speed drains the user's energy, and he would have wanted to conserve his energy. In addition, it would be dangerous to move that fast on a rail-less catwalk, especially considering he was already somewhat fatigued.

To not get too bogged down into the details, my main issue is that the novel tried to canonise something that was an editing mistake, because the rest of the movie ignores that being a viable ability

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Editing mistake? The fact that the Jedi do not use Force Speed again, doesn't mean that "the movie ignores that being a viable ability". It just means that, for any number - or combination - of reasons*, Obi-Wan didn't use the ability in that instance.

 

* possible reasons I noted that, admittedly, were not explained in the film

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13 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

To not get too bogged down into the details, my main issue is that the novel tried to canonise something that was an editing mistake, because the rest of the movie ignores that being a viable ability


Was it an editing mistake? That doesn’t sound unreasonable being that it’s an ability never referred to, not brought up again. It comes across as lazy writing “oh, how will they evade these Droids? Sod it, I’ll have them run super fast!”

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On 1/23/2021 at 7:36 AM, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

Why did Qui Gon's body not disappear, when he died?


There was no evidence that slaughtered Jedi in ROTS or in the arena in AOTC disappeared either.  It was intentional.  Lucas tried to explain this in Episode III and Clone Wars - that somehow Qui-Gon Jinn had posthumously been enlightened and would train Yoda in becoming one with the force.  Without the Clone Wars context, it just seems like a weird out of nowhere “what?” In ROTS to me, and honestly that bit of lore was just one little fidgety bit that REALLY didn’t need to be explained, had Lucas just decided to let all Jedi poof away when they die in the prequels.

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9 minutes ago, mstrox said:

had Lucas just decided to let all Jedi poof away when they die in the prequels.

but he reeeally wanted to force the funeral pyre connection because nostalgia

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"It's like poetry. They rhyme."

                                - George Lucas

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22 hours ago, mstrox said:

had Lucas just decided to let all Jedi poof away when they die in the prequels.


To be fair, I never liked that. The whole thing about Ben’s body disappearing comes across as a kiddie-movie cop-out, as in “well, we can’t show Vader’s sword actually slashing into Alec Guinness.”

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6 hours ago, Mattris said:

do you classify the Star Wars Saga films as 'kiddie-movies',

 

It varies. Certainly, Star Wars is much more overtly a kiddie film then The Empire Strikes Back...

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2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

It varies. Certainly, Star Wars is more overtly a kiddie film then The Empire Strikes Back...

 

I certainly agree that The Empire Strikes Back is a much darker film than the original.

 

But generally speaking, would you classify the Star Wars Saga as 'kiddie films'?

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I dunno what the definition is for “kiddie” but I’d definitely qualify them as kid’s movies.

 

It gets a little hazier once they became PG-13, but I think the DNA is still there.

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2 hours ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

Gen Xers turned up in droves buying dolls and camping out for them, ruining everything.

 

How did this ruin everything?

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2 hours ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

It began the trend of SW primarily being associated with adult nerds rather than the target audience.

 

You will come to learn that, with Star Wars, George Lucas intended his "target audience" to be people of all ages - not only young people - but adults that perhaps lacked wisdom and life experiences who could benefit and grow from the messages, themes, and lessons presented in these parable-based stories.

 

While I find your classification of the most passionate Star Wars fans as "adult nerds" demeaning, I find your lack of faith disturbing.

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On 1/23/2021 at 4:12 PM, DarthDementous said:

You’re right, the dragging we see is before he dies. However, the camera does hang on Vader’s body after he dies while Luke mourns him so we know it’s at least not an Obi Wan situation

 

To not get too bogged down into the details, my main issue is that the novel tried to canonise something that was an editing mistake, because the rest of the movie ignores that being a viable ability

 

I know that was a running theory for years, but it's not an editing mistake because in the next shot then are still running down the hallway incredibly fast with the motion blur effect still applied. If it was a mistake it would've only been present in the one shot. Why they never use this ability again though, I have no clue.

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3 hours ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

They are movies for kids with adults reading into them too much.

 

You've basically distilled this whole thread right here...

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6 minutes ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

it went right over Mattress and all these other nuts' heads.

 

You make it seem like you're surprised at this?

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5 hours ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

They are movies for kids with adults reading into them too much.

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

You've basically distilled this whole thread right here...

 

 

He distilled nothing... because he, like you, read into these movies too little  and understands them as well as 'the kiddies'.

 

2 hours ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

Yes, but it went right over Mattress and all these other nuts' heads.

 

It went right over my head, eh? It's ironic.

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18 minutes ago, mstrox said:

We'd understand the movies more if they did subtitles for the hairy guy


As I understand it, on-set he had actual dialogue so that the actors (who are supposed to understand his language) could react believably.

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I always took the original trilogy to have a universal tone, but ANH and ROTJ had elements of goofiness. Not necessarily in a childish way, but in a more camp sense ala Flash Gordon

 

Interesting point about the characters still running in the next shot with the motion blur effect, I’ll have to check the film again 

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5 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

I always took the original trilogy to have a universal tone, but ANH and ROTJ had elements of goofiness. Not necessarily in a childish way, but in a more camp sense ala Flash Gordon

 

Interesting point about the characters still running in the next shot with the motion blur effect, I’ll have to check the film again 


Star Wars is definitely a kid’s film. It’s success allowed the rest of the series to be more earnest (a lot of Lucas’ earlier drafts also read as very earnest), although goofiness sneaks into a lot of the other entries, too.

 

There being motion blur wouldn’t negate the shot starting life as an editing mistake: by time of The Phantom Menace, you could add motion blur to shots after the fact, plus I believe it was a later addition anyway. The real question is whether it existed in early drafts of the script or not.

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